From: Skeeve Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 30 Mar 95 21:20:00 Subject: Re: JUGORUM UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Skeeve <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> I remember your mentioning practicing the Jugorum thang using a rubber RD> band instead of a razor. For those of us who have jobs, families, and RD> dealings with the public, sounds much more sensible than walking RD> around with gashes all over one's forearms--LOL! I've been doing some RD> thinking about the whole *concept* of Jugorum recently, though, and RD> wondering about its efficacy in accomplishing the stated goal of RD> control of thought. RD> Specifically, it seems that the basic stuff recommended therein is RD> eminently sound--training oneself to avoid thinking of specific RD> things, saying specific things, doing specific things--but maybe the RD> method is a bit counter-productive. If you 'punish' yourself for RD> breaks, whether the method is slashing the arm with a razor, snapping RD> the wrist with a rubber band, or anything else that causes pain or RD> discomfort, it seems as though what you're *really* training yourself RD> to do is to avoid pain, and that's already a hard-wired trait in most RD> human beings. It seems to me that training oneself through sheer force RD> of Will, without any negative stimuli to be avoided, would bring much RD> more powerful, and *lasting* results. It'd be harder, of course, but RD> it ain't really spozed to be 'easy'! I like what you are saying. It would appear to me to bring a more positive result than the razor blade. I am wondering though, if the razor/rubber band is not just a more emphatic way of bringin that lapse to your consciousness? The training by sheer force of will is great, but I wonder how much a person who had that force of will would get from Jugorum in the first place? RD> I didn't 'train' my daughter to 'act right' through physical RD> punishment; I didn't train my dog that way either...so, should I train RD> my mind that way? I'm wondering if simply noting breaks, as one would RD> do with many other types of practices, wouldn't be a more effective RD> practice. Possibly writing about the exercise in one's magical RD> journal, and attempting to analyze the reason for the break, or RD> circumstances that may have contributed to it, also seems like a way RD> to go to me. This too sounds wonderful. But, the one benefit of the razor slice is that 'Thine arm then serveth thee both for a warning and for a record'. My day is so busy that although I can not slice my arm with a razor, I would also be hard pressed (if not unable) to stop each time and record the break. And without doing that, I am much more likely to forget all the circumstances around it. 'Course, I sometimes forget to get up and go to the bathroom when I am hot and heavy into writing a program :) Now, if I could just obtain that same singlemindedness when meditating or perfoming a ritual! :/ C'est la vie, Progress not perfection, right? RD> All that said, have you found Jugorum to be valuable to your personal RD> development? Anyone else reading who has practiced with razor, rubber RD> band, or any other method, please feel free to jump on in as well! ;> RD> Thanks for listening to me ramble, & looking forward to your thoughts! RD> :> Much as I would like to say that I have practiced Jugorum, I must honestly say that I have not practiced Jugorum, with any method. Unfortunately, I am much more theoretical than practical when it comes to most things. Something I am working on :( Love is the law, love under will Skeeve ... Have you taunted a conservative today? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: The Cegorach 30 Mar 95 07:32:44 Subject: Re: REPLIES... UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > may have to wait a bit. I just busted my relief (at work) for sexual > harassment, so I'm now back on 7 days (daze?) a week. Yikes! =:o Who was s/he harrassing? No thang, answer when you can, I'll be here. I'm *always* here! ;> > Joy. Existence is *pure* Joy...don't let nobody, including yerself, tell ya different! ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Dave Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 30 Mar 95 19:17:08 Subject: RE: JUGORUM UpdReq RD> one's forearms--LOL! I've been doing some thinking about the whole RD> *concept* of Jugorum recently, though, and wondering about its efficacy RD> in accomplishing the stated goal of control of thought. RD> Specifically, it seems that the basic stuff recommended therein is RD> eminently sound--training oneself to avoid thinking of specific things, RD> saying specific things, doing specific things--but maybe the method is a RD> bit counter-productive. If you 'punish' yourself for breaks, whether the RD> method is slashing the arm with a razor, snapping the wrist with a RD> rubber band, or anything else that causes pain or discomfort, it seems RD> as though what you're *really* training yourself to do is to avoid pain, RD> and that's already a I think another important point about Jugorum is that while it obviously seems to be an exercise in "self remembering", it also seems to be an exercise in helping one realize what the "self" part really is. That is, one takes on the role of will (or a "watcher") attempting to continually observe the actions of the organism. The fact that the will can inflict a cut upon the organism comes across to the aspirant as at least subjective experience of their potential separateness. Perhaps this accounts for the fact that people who have practiced Jugorum speak of an uplifting, freeing experience along with more precise self-remembering. I've never tried Jugorum myself; as a college student balancing 5 courses, a job search, a job, and a (not totally dead) social life, I'd probably bleed to death! :) I recall reading in "A Master of the Temple" about Frater Achad that he practiced Jugorum while working somewhere - several times his slipups were at work. I'd probably try to set aside some "retirement" time for that one... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Martin Krogh-Poulsen Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 30 Mar 95 11:22:14 Subject: M.. UpdReq Care Frater Vitriol and Soror Alma! Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. CP> Frater Vitriol & Soror Alma would like to express their boundless CP> gratitude to the Gods, the O.T.O., and their initiating officers, CP> especially to Master Paul Hume, upon the occasion of their IIo CP> initiations. Congragulation to both of you Magicians. Where exactly did you take your II? Love is the law, love under will. CP> - V - Martin Krogh-Poulsen 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Sysops 30 Mar 95 10:21:00 Subject: PODNET foulups UpdReq Thus said Fir to Josh Norton on 3/5/1995 concerning CONTACTING THE HGA: > The HGA or "Genius" is a personal tutelary spirit. Its three primary > functions are: ... Fi> Thank you for a very helpful and lucid response. I'm gonna chew on Fi> it some before I attempt to respond. This message finally made it here -- _twenty-five_days_ after it was sent! Same for one from CP and one from the Cegorach. What sort of black hole swallows messages from three different BBSs for that long, and then spits them back up? Tony? Any other sysops? What's going on? ... Rowe's Rule: The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 * Origin: Access! Information Services (93:9000/2) SEEN-BY: 31/11 102/943 107/946 109/235 202/311 215/9393 401/0 666/119 1000/1 SEEN-BY: 1000/3 1100/0 2000/1 4 11 9000/0 2 4 6 8 10 9007/0 9008/0 9010/0 SEEN-BY: 9020/0 9030/0 9040/0 9060/0 9070/0 9080/0 4 10 9081/0 9083/0 9090/0 SEEN-BY: 9100/0 9200/0 9300/0 9400/0 9430/0 9500/0 9600/0 2 7 9606/0 9608/0 SEEN-BY: 9609/0 9620/0 9630/0 9640/0 9650/0 9660/0 9697/0 9800/0 9900/0 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718