From: The Cegorach Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 25 Nov 94 09:16:04 Subject: Re: HIYA! Kill UpdReq -=> Rose Dawn said to The Cegorach (23 Nov 94 08:32:30) <=- Re: Re: HIYA! RD> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> RD> I really am glad to see ya back, even if it'll have to be minus your RD> former manic enthusiasm for everything under the Sun. ;> I lucked Don't worry, it's bubbling up again, absolutely irrepressible, as always.... :) I figure there's no particular reason why I should let mere employment interfere with the burning desire to *know*.... RD> out--after some intense Jupiter stuff--and came into a bit of money; RD> not a fortune, but enough for me and Tam to live on for several months RD> without needing to sweat the rent and bills, or me having to do a RD> single lick of mundane work if I didn't wanna! :> Gave me time to RD> devote exclusively to magical practices, yoga, and doing the Mom RD> Thang. Wonderful. :> Cool beans. RD> Hey--it is beyond my degree. I haven't been awarded the Dreaded Tech RD> Weenie Beanie yet! Nope, like Kayla, I'm also a Mac person. I can RD> *read* High ASCI, but not produce it. ;> Bummer. :) > By the way, the notion to use alt-249 occurred to me just after > finishing Harding's _Kali: Black Goddess of Dakshineswar_. After > immersing myself in Kali for a few days, it just sorta popped into my > head. Coincidence? :) :) RD> Did you like that book? It drove me crazy while I was reading it...I Yes, I did. Yes, it had a sorta "White Middle Class Lady in the Midst of the Primitive Savages--My Gosh, Aren't They Clever?" tone to it, but it's still better than nothing. Don't forget, this is North Carolina, and I live within quick driving distance of Jesse Helms. It's not my "ideal" Kali book, but it's a good start. :) > Basically just Resh and the beginner's layout of Asana's from Swami > Vishnu-Devananda's Complete Book of Yoga. I've been pretty slack > about pent and hex rits, though I've managed a few LBRPs, and several > Rubies.... RD> RD> Uhm, the Ruby *is* a pent ritual! Tried the Star Sapphire yet, in any I *know* that. So is the LBRP. Re-read, Grasshopper. Perhaps I was unclear. Take #2: I've managed a few LBRPs and several Rubies, but compared to previous standards (i.e., at least once daily), I've been pretty slack about both pent and hex rits. Yes, done the Sapphire. I used to alternate "normal" and "Thelemic" rits. That is, one day, I'd do the LBRP, LBRH, and SIRP; the next, it'd be Ruby, Sapphire, and Reguli.... RD> ::snicker:: and get back into LBRP/LRH for a while. Now that I've got RD> the 'Ruby basics' down, though, I've been really interested in getting RD> deeper into it..I'm sure you know what I mean, I remember your wanting RD> to ditch LBRPs altogether in favor of SRs way back when. How's Swami V Yeah. I still 'honor' the LBRP, and consider it quite valuable, don't get me wrong. Personal preference, though, is quite undoubtedly the Ruby. :) RD> treating you? Oh! Forgot to tell you, I'm on my way to certification RD> as a hatha yoga instructor...LOL. I got my start with Cool beans. :) RD> Vishnu-devananda, and that's still the style I tend to prefer above RD> all others, but *not* the style I'm presently training in...life's RD> strange sometimes, eh? ;> Don't neglect yer pranayama ::nag nag RD> nag:: -- seriously, if I do nothing *but* pranayama on any given day, Yes, Mom. ;> RD> I consider it a day well spent. Great stuff. :> Also lately been RD> incorporating Suryanamaskar into Resh, rather than immediately RD> after...specifically, going thru the Adorations part while doing the RD> Surya asana series. Seems to be working ace. :> Hm. Interesting. Will ponder. RD> You should be able to order Frater U'D' direct from Llewellyn , RD> no? Or did you mean in *german*? Don't read the Goetia before bedtime! };> The prices for Equinoxes made me realize that, at this point, online text RD> editions are good enuff for me. ;> I'm going to order U.'. D.'. via The Abyss, a mail-order house I've had good dealings with previously. Same with the Goetia. Maybe even the Equinox, though I might end up going with the 93 Publishing edition. RD> Further catching-up: Tami and I both recently attended our first EGC RD> Mass, and it was BITCHIN!! Is there anywhere remotely close to Cary RD> where they celebrate the Gnostic Mass? I highly recommend it. :> I Atlanta, GA is the closest site. Unless they've started doing them at Blake. :( Larry ... equal opportunity heretic. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: The Cegorach Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 25 Nov 94 09:49:46 Subject: OTO Kill UpdReq -=> To Meta Therion said to Paul Hume (23 Nov 94 15:56:32) <=- Re: OTO TMT> 7th and the degrees that are that high are the only degrees that can TMT> not be accessed directly by published material. It is the secret of TMT> the 9th degree that I would be interested in above all, and unless I TMT> am mistaken, there are none that hold that degree at this time. Re: the ninth. You should be able to figure out the 'secret' of the ninth degree from publically available material. Re: holders of the IXth...well, there must be at least *one*. Hymenaeus Beta holds the Xth, which rather presupposes the IXth, does it not? Bill Heidrick is also a IXth, is he not? Again, publically available info.... Larry ... It's Psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw. - Calvin 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Walter Five 25 Nov 94 08:41:26 Subject: More AC Bull. UpdReq WF> flippant. The 11th Degree WF> (which is inscrutable, and dwells in its own Houses, currently outside WF> the perview of the Order) is like many other High Mysteries--easily WF> misunderstood and misrepresented by the profane. Now, (Wouldn't that be purview) But in fact, if the XIth is OTO, it is under it's own purview, and was since Grady chartered Shiraz. By the way, Grady was no more initiated into the IXth than HB, so if Grady was able to activate it, I guess HB could too, though I doubt he is likely to in the near future. WF> BTW, the 11th Degree "technically" isn't a WF> homosexual one. I know WF> of at least one female candidate papered by H.A. to the 11th Degree. The But the original Rites were separate and homosexual. The rite of Mitylene only admitted women, and Shiraz only males. There was one male initiated into Mitylene in 1986, though. WF> 11th Degree *is* inactive, though. There are no currently chartered 11th WF> Degree Initiators within the Order, and H.B. has not been initiated into I think this is not technically true. Initiators were never chartered separately from members, at least in Mitylene, and there are people who still maintain membership. They are chartered to "recognise" other XIths. WF> this degree, so I'm not sure that he *could* charter its reactivation if WF> he wanted to--how can one charter or award a degree WF> that one has not been WF> recieved? As I noted above, if Grady could do it, HB should be able to, though one may intimate that Grady could or should not have either. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: Bruce Kroeze 25 Nov 94 09:48:00 Subject: chaos magick practice UpdReq BK>I just can't make myself disentangle magick from my life for a _year_ to BK>participate in a different sort of magickal practice (psychotherapy) the BK>effectiveness of which seems to be miniscule. Even worse, from my perspecti BK>is that hearkens back to the bad-old-days of guruism. "I can't get better BK>without someone to help me." Lastly, too darn expensive. The thing is, one can get to a point of spiritual attainment, and yet continue to have emotional problems. I don't think that Papa Izzy meant that people go through therapy to the exclusion of magick, but that's what I feel is personally necessary for >me< to do. I am doing this to save my own sanity. And so far, it works for me. And that's the main criterion. If it doesn't work for me, I stop doing it. 93, --.\\<-H-- michelle.hass@ledge.com * SLMR 2.1a * Huh huh huh...she said "93." Huh huh huh huh huh.... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: FIR 23 Nov 94 17:55:00 Subject: RE: CHAOS MAGICK PRACTICE Rec'd UpdReq -=> Quoting Fir to Joseph Max <=- Fi> Hi Joseph, Fi> JM and JN. Talk about confusing. From my perspective reading this Fi> post, I don't see you 2 as being on opposites sides of everything. We're not. In fact, I would say that we agree on far more points than disagree. And most of those ar points of personal interpretation anyway. > As Pete put it, "The > problem for scientists is that they are observing and trying to describe > effects that can only be due to something that they refuse to believe > exists, and the problem for magicians is that they refuse to believe > that the effects they create or observe are due to something for which > equations could be written." Fi> Interesting quote. The local GD (Laura Jennings Yorke et. al.) Fi> are supposed to be sponsoring visits to the area in '95 by Fi> Pat Zalewski, Alan Richards, Hal Levi, and Pete Carroll, to name Fi> a few. Tres cool. Hopefully some of them will make it out to California as well. >JM> Au contrare! Speaking as a Grand Stellium-plus Leo, I _love_ pomp Fi> Sure would like to meet another '55 Leo in person some day, Fi> especially one with an interest in Magick. Stranger things have happened. I do get out to the east coast on occassion. If you like, drop me a way to contact you directly to my Internet address: max@slip.net >JM> When I spoke of stripping away symbolism, I spoke of _useless_ >JM> symbolism. For example, I know you do quite a bit of Enochian work. Do >JM> you think the outrageously ponderous Golden Dawn system, with it's >JM> plethora of (often conflicting) symbology and page after page of >JM> excessive verbage is required to work with the Enochian archtypes? The >JM> old Golden Dawn certainly thought it was, and repeatedly warned against >JM> working with Enochian Magic without it. Fi> I very much enjoy the contrast between Josh's experienced approach Fi> to Enochian work and a GD friend of mine's approach. Quote different Fi> and yet where the intent is pure I wonder how different the Fi> experiences, insights, and results will be. Fi> In all fairness, the GD's systematic approach to magick is not a bad Fi> way to approach getting into Enochian magick. No, it isn't. It does reflect, however, the great amount of "moral" indoctrination involved in going through the GD's grade system. This is very common amongst magical orders, and the GD is hardly alone in this. Most of the "vernerable" old Orders insist on indoctrinating the beginner into a strict moral system before imparting any of the actual techniques of magical work. As I see it, this is the main divergence between practitoners of Chaos Magic (especially within such groups as the Pact and the AutonomatriX) and the traditional orders: Chaos Magic is morally "neutral". This is not to say that Chaotes have no ethics - not at all. But they must find their ethical doctrines elsewhere; it is not attached to the study of magic itself. >JN> The main problem I have with that is: Useless to whom? And useless at >JN> what point in their careers as magicians? Personalities differ in >JN> their degree of need for drama and aids to focus; I don't deny its >JN> usefulness just because I now find it irritating personally. And >JN> veterans can get away with shortcuts that wouldn't be possible for the >JN> less experienced. Fi> Well put by Josh. Especially the last sentence. Well, a lot of what I was referring to was not the mechanics of ritual work itself - as I pointed out later, I _love_ a good ritual! I was referring rather to what I mentioned above - the "moral indoctrination" that goes along with the technique. About 90% of the Neophyte Ritual is preaching about codes of morality, and pounding these precepts into the applicants brain with threats of painful, gooey death! ... Eight out of ten rottweilers prefer proselytisers to postmen. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Doug Plexico Area: Thelema To: Martin Krogh-Poulsen 25 Nov 94 08:53:12 Subject: Copy-rights... UpdReq In the US, a book is supposed to only have a 25 year copyright and after that it becomes public domain. At least this is from my understanding. I get confused how books older than 25 years have a new copyright, I think if it is modified, then a new copyright can be gotton. I. too, would like to know the truth of this. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Doug Plexico Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 25 Nov 94 08:57:26 Subject: CD-ROMs UpdReq CD-ROMS can be made by third party companies, for a $500 +/- setup fee and approx. $ 1.75 per disks. I can be done NOW! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Doug Plexico Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 25 Nov 94 09:05:22 Subject: Crowley on CDROM? UpdReq TI> That's not bad. Who are you using? Prentice Hall uses a TI> place called FailSafe for their CDs. Of course, if they TI> come down to $300, I would expect to see the end of CD TI> duplication service bureaus as they are today. Did you TI> see that Dvorak excerpt? Also, how do you currently get TI> the 500MB or so to the service bureau? Good removeable TI> optical might cost as much as the Pinnacle RCD. DWTWSBTWOTL I went to COMDEX this month and talked to the folks who do this. I am awaiting futher info in the mail from them concernign this. I will post the info when I get it. LITL, LUW 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Doug Plexico Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 25 Nov 94 09:17:46 Subject: Re: THE ABYSS 2/ UpdReq RD> No pain, no AIN? Hehehe. RD> RD> Love is the law, love under will. That commment could be considered as quite AIN-NAL! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Doug Plexico Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 25 Nov 94 09:21:16 Subject: OTO UpdReq We, as Thelemites, should never allow our "religion" to become a closed system like Christianity! The Holy Words of this new age should never stop with Crowley's death. I am beginning to see signs that, as a whole, are becoming as or greater in our dogmatism than Christianity. Something we must not allow to continue, if we expect to continue..... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 26 Nov 94 18:56:34 Subject: Leon's Tarot Lecture UpdReq 93 Ar, AA> But as I said, his real tarot class is a major AA> undertaking- 15 months, isn't it? Hasn't been the AA> right thing for me yet. I considered taking it but he stopped teaching it. That's why he did the Major Arcana series a while back at Crossroads, to finish up the students taking the LONG course. His upcoming O.T.O. sponsored lecture on the history of the occult in the Northwest ought to be very interesting too. While I'm thinking about leaving Seattle in the long run (don't care for these grey winters) I'd like to stick around long enough to study astrology with Paul Berryl who's recently moved here. AA> Were your Outer Groves with him on any particular focus? I'll show you the syllabus sometime if you're interested. A very thorough intro to Wicca and all it's associated topics. With a bibliography to take away on each topic. Unfortunately not much hands on stuff, exept the first half of the year Leon cast the circle that the class was taught inside of and the second half of the year the students were responsible for casting the circle the class was taught in. The year I took it, it was sponsored by 3 local covens with a couple of solitary individuals sponsoring it (7 teachers) with lots of guest speakers. Part of Leon's teaching style is to be available for questions but not necessarily to volunteer the info if you don't ask. Anyways he's a dear, I love him like a brother. And I do believe taking his class had a great deal to do with me moving to Seattle this time around. 93 93/93, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 26 Nov 94 19:09:34 Subject: Women of GD UpdReq 93 Rose, > As an aside, I'm hearing references to a book in print about > women in the GD though I haven't seen the book and am wondering > if it's the same book Julia Phillips mentioned a friend of hers > was coming out with. > RD> I heard about the book also, and I figured it was the RD> same one Julia referred to a while back--I *think* the RD> author's name was the same as the one she mentioned, RD> but I ain't 100% positive. This is one that was just RD> recently published, yes? Well it's mentioned in print as _Magical Women of the Golden Dawn: Rebels and Priestesses_ by Mary K. Greer (Wingbow Press 1994) but when I called Serpents Occult this past week they thought it wasn't in print yet. 93 93/93, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: The Cegorach 26 Nov 94 19:14:06 Subject: Hiya! UpdReq 93 Ceg, TC> Yup. While magickal work has had to take a back seat, things on the TC> Mundane plane are looking up. You still working thru Kraig's _Modern Magick_ or did you finish with it or move on or what? Curious minds want to know. 93 93/93, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 26 Nov 94 19:17:32 Subject: Clarification UpdReq 93 AnTony, TI> I have the first two volumes online here, though I Thanks! I'll take a look for them. TI> letter with the second batch. I did send email TI> speculating on the unnumbered issue, and wondered why TI> you didn't respond. Must have gone into the black email TI> hole that I recently found and destroyed. Looks like you've fixed the line noise as well as destroyed the black email hole. Never saw the msg and since it's no longer on BaphoNet I guess I won't be seeing it either . What's your speculation on the unnumbered issue? 93 93/93, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718