From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 20 Nov 94 13:38:00 Subject: The Abyss 1/ UpdReq Hi Rose! Almost missed this one -- it didn't show up on the Cincy BBS. Lots of very perceptive stuff, most of which needs no direct comment, save to say I agree. RD> RD> My humble opinion tends toward an 'Abyss' at every step along the way in an RD> individual's initiation. In my experience, it hasn't been RD> something lying in wait until one is ready to become a RD> Master of the Temple...there are many 'mini Dark Nights of RD> the Soul' and at each encounter, it seems that there's a RD> real, finite, and ominous 'choice' involved...am I gonna go RD> on, try to turn back, descend into very NON-Divine RD> insanity, or blow my brains all over the wall, etc., ad RD> infenitem, ad nauseum. This is more or less what I was saying in the "four stages" post -- the "official" abyss experience is just an apotheosis of the "death" stage, which happens in every initiation to a greater or lesser degree. (musing...) You're right, in some sense the abyss is always with us. Or maybe there is more than one kind of "abyss": There is the gap between the divine and the human, between the Self and the Selfless, which is only seems to exist because of the limitations of our perceptions. This is the one Crowley, et.al. are talking about when discussing "crossing the Abyss". But then there is the abyss between what we are capable of knowing of the universe and everything that is actually going on there; this one isn't "crossable" -- all you can do is push back the edge a bit. Sometimes the unknowable intrudes unasked on our nicely-ordered world, throwing things into chaos. And then there is the "abyss below", the sea of preconscious processes out of which our awareness arose in the first place. The seeming solidity of our individual selves is really only a thin layer of ice covering this sea. When the ice cracks we see for a while into those terrifying depths; or if the pressure is too great, the ice breaks up entirely and dissolves back into the water... Fortunately for us, the ice usually re-forms itself without any intervention. Damn, I'm waxing poetic again. I really wonder how much choice is involved in most instances, however. Methinks that by the time the disruption becomes noticeable, it's probably too late; one can "choose" to ride it out, or one can resist, and have it happen to you anyway. RD> RD> I can really *feel* the nature of my own inits as 'Force and RD> Fire'...everything, EVERYthing!! that needs to be dealt RD> with in detail and at length is 'Forced' up front and RD> center, and the Fire is there to 'burn it away', but RD> without a lot of work, a lot of pain, and a lot of careful RD> attention, it's just as ready to burn your heart, mind, and RD> spirit, leaving a 'pile of ashes' with *nothing* to rise RD> therefrom. It's a real comfort that this sort of thing RD> comes in steps in one way, but a pretty sobering shock to RD> realize that there is *so* much more waiting around every RD> corner...an adventure in the purest sense of the word, the RD> sense that implies peril and real danger, as well as RD> *real* accomplishment. Beautifully said. RD> And boy, haven't I typed your eye off this RD> morning! ;> RD> I enjoyed it immensely. .pg [ Continued In Next Message... ] ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 20 Nov 94 13:38:02 Subject: The Abyss 2/ UpdReq [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] > No shit! I usually think of it as a time of "miserable > exaltation". RD> RD> Not being as exhalted as you , for me it's been more like times of utter RD> despair and complete hopelessness, tempered by plain damn RD> stubbornness, and the unwillingness to lie down and go to RD> sleep in the snow that's been my sole saving grace as long RD> as I can remember. Maybe aspiring magicians don't need to RD> be brave and wise; they simply need to be onery enuff to RD> keep putting one foot in front of the other even when RD> there doesn't seem to be any reason why any sane person RD> would *want* to! ;> RD> I've encountered that despair many times along the way. A couple of times I got to the point of putting the gun in my mouth and clicking off the safety... but that last little pull of the finger always seemed like a copout. The thought always came to me how annoyed I would be with myself, assuming some spirit-part survived the experience. Later I realized that the pain can be as exalting in its own way as the more pleasurable kinds. That made it somewhat easier to keep going, though even now I still don't appreciate that exaltation till after it's over. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 20 Nov 94 22:11:26 Subject: Baloney about Unca' Al UpdReq -=> Michelle Hass sent a message to Christeos Pir on 17 Nov 94 10:37:04 <=- -=> Re: Baloney about Unca' Al <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. MH> V.I.T.R.I.O.L. with full stops? And sometimes "Vitriol 335." If it's been that long ago, then you probably missed me taking my Minerval at Kali Lodge in NOLA, and my Io here at William Blake Camp, where I'm now the Camp Secretary. MH> God...those were crummy pieces of work...in fact one wasn't even MH> entirely mine! Hah! No one's a harsher critic than oneself (except in Uncle Al's case, of course! ). I still like the pome anyway. MH> Do you have access to Internet e-mail? MH> Send me your snailmail address to michelle.hass@ledge.com or MH> if you only have access to Fido netmail, Netmail me at 1:102/943 I can get netmail via 1:109/235.0 or E-mail via: christeos_pir@f235.n109.z1.fidonet.org or snail mail via: William Blake Camp, O.T.O. P.O. Box 404 Ashburn VA 22011-0404 'Course, if you're going to be in the area, let me know and I'll make sure you've got my home address & phone! MH> Sometimes I actually buy books like that from used bookstores, just MH> for a good laugh. Sometimes it's amusing, but sometimes, like when you see that it's the only source of info for people using the public libraries, it aggravates the shitotomy. Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... And from the ox and ass come moping terrors 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Martin Krogh-Poulsen 20 Nov 94 18:25:18 Subject: Copy-rights... UpdReq -=> Martin Krogh-Poulsen sent a message to everybody on 11 Nov 94 17:04:05 <=- -=> Re: Copy-rights... <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. MK> Does anybody have a list of the Copy-Rights on the different Crowley MK> writings? MK> It's pretty much a chaos of dates and different countries laws, etc. MK> as far as I have heard. I would be much obliged if someone could help MK> me :) I'd contact the following, in that order: Publications Director Ordo Templi Orientis P.O. Box 3178 Asheville NC 28802 Secretary General Ordo Templi Orientis P.O. Box 32 Riverside CA 92502 William Heidrick, TG/GTG P.O. Box 430 Fairfax CA 94978 (Email: bheidrick@aol.com Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir Fr. Vitriol Io, O.T.O. ... Wolf's bane is not so sharp as steel; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Fir 20 Nov 94 18:30:02 Subject: Re: ROUND UP THE USUAL SUSPECTS! UpdReq -=> Fir sent a message to Christeos Pir on 17 Nov 94 07:44:26 <=- -=> Re: Re: ROUND UP THE USUAL SUSPECTS! <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Fi> 93 Christeos, Hey, girlfriend! Fi> I'll be danged! Here I thought that was a good book. Have even Fi> shown it to a local bookstore manager so he could order it for the Fi> store. Fi> Fi> What do you think of the book outside of this obvious untruthful Fi> page? See what ya get? That seems to be the worst, but other pages had plenty of misinformation as well. (Mathers was an Ipsissimus of the G.D.? [Or was that one of the other jewels I've read lately ... I've read so much BS on these subjects lately, that "Foucault's Pendulum" is beginning to seem like a documentary.]) Fi> BTW, picked up that Faulkner translation of _The Egyptian Book Fi> of the Dead_ yesterday. Thanks for mentioning it. It's beautiful. Yeah, I think I'm gonna have to break down and buy a copy. Especially since the pictures were too big to scan. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Mad, he danc'd on his mountains high & dark as heaven. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Fir 20 Nov 94 22:14:10 Subject: NEW BOOK FOUR AVAILABLE? UpdReq -=> Fir sent a message to All on 17 Nov 94 07:52:26 <=- -=> Re: NEW BOOK FOUR AVAILABLE? <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Fi> The ad in The Link says it will be available Nov. 11. Fi> Fi> Has anyone seen it available yet? I'll have to check with Bro. Thomas. ('Specially since I've got a 20%-off coupon from Borders!) I'll get back to you on this one. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Isis and Osiris are given over to incest and adultery. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Therion Area: Thelema To: All 20 Nov 94 16:11:10 Subject: Great God AC? UpdReq I recently read a post concerning Crowley idolatry. This caused me to think, and I began to ponder the past messages that I have read and received. When a man is dead, he is dead. If he leaves writings behind, then those writings are ways to see into his personality. Crowley was different in this respect because his writings were the cause of a so-called new aeon/religion/spirituality. These writings should be read by those whom they concern, but there tends to be a lack of questioning as to what Crowley was trying to do. I should clarify myself and say a lack of personal questioning. The arguments posted all tend to be circular, and end up with neither reader benefitting from the things said. I have to admit that I ascribe myself to the Thelemic form of magick and there is one reason and one reason only for this: it works for me better than any other form that I have tried. Perhaps I am not as fluent in magickal techniques as another older and more well-read than I, but I have had my share of spirit surfing. As far as Crowley's word as the word of truth, and the only word one should believe, I don't know when this misconception started. The writings he produced and others produced concerning his material were never meant to structure the lives of those that read them as the Bible does for Christians. I have read _The Law is for All_ and a few of crowley's other comments, and I find that I disagree with most of his ideas because his mode of thinking was _too_ logical. Does anyone else disagree, or do they judge all things by the writings of the Deadest Man in the World. It's time for something new, and I beg each and everyone of you to begin experimenting if you haven't already. Try new formulas. Avoid the Tree of Life if necessary, but don't say "Crowley wrote it, I believe it." Frankly, I find myself more attracted to Grant's works than Crowley's because he adds a whole new dimension to the theories out there. I don't speak for everyone, but I speak for myself, and if I am not as important as everyone else here, then perhaps Crowley _was_ wrong. Just don't reestablish another Christianity like the OTO seems to be doing. Question, doubt and disbelieve. Pax 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Therion Area: Thelema To: All 20 Nov 94 16:24:48 Subject: OTO UpdReq Does anyone here know if the rule still stands in the OTO that you cannot advance to a certain grade until you have 111 members in your lodge? Just curious. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Jams Area: Thelema To: All 21 Nov 94 03:43:02 Subject: More AC Bull. UpdReq From: mummu@brewich.com (Jams) Newsgroups: pod.thelema Subject: More AC Bull. Christeos.Pir@f3.n1000.z31.fidonet.org (Christeos Pir) writes: > Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > > Just finished reading yet another piece of crap on occultism, Crowley, > and the OTO (among others), called _At the Heart of Darkness_ by > one John Parker. I don't know what we did to him, but this is about as > vile and repulsive a collection of slanders and innuendos as you could > hope to avoid. (Why do I keep doing this to myself?) Every other page, > regardless of the subject at hand, contains yet another slap at > Crowley, Liber AL, and the OTO. I'm tempted to have some business cards > made up and start sticking them into these books, inscribed "If you > want the truth about these subjects, contact ... " > > This jerk's idea of reporting is to repeat 1000 rumours and slanders, > followed by a statement to the effect that although none of this has > been proven, where there's smoke there must be fire, therefore, Crowley > and all his idiot followers really DO smoke fetuses and poke each other > in the ass. > > Which reminds me, Dr. Aquino... did you really say, as he attributes to > you, upon the occasion of the decision in the OTO/SOTO court case: > > "While sitting in the courtroom watching Judge Legge preside sternly > over the slug-out, I couldn't help wondering if he had any idea he was > ruling on which group had legal claim to anal sex as the supreme > religious sacrament in the United States." > > Love is the law, love under will. > > - Christeos Pir > > > ... The roaring of lions, the howling of wolves > * Origin: The Arena of Anon * Herndon, Virginia * (703) 904-9669 (31:1000/3) Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, Is there anything particularly wrong with AC engaging in anal sex? I do it all the time and find it to be a wonderful thing. why is this considered to be BS? Love is the law, love under will. ------------------ mummu@brewich.com (Jams) Origin: The Brewers' Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350 3 lines 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Fir 20 Nov 94 10:14:04 Subject: Re: MASS OF PHOENIX UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Hm? For real? Why? Nope, apparently *not* for real. ;> I suppose it might've been one person's opinion. I don't see it myself, and neither has anyone else I've talked about it with... 'the magician of any grade' doesn't sound gender-exclusive to *me*. ;> > I've also heard that the XI degree has another association other > than homosexual, but not exactly what it is yet. I've got a > girlfriend who likes to say that the O.T.O. is not equal between > men and women because a women can't take XI degree. Then again > I've heard that there have been women of XI degree. as far as I know, the XI' has been suspended in the current O.T.O. as an active grade. I've also heard that there have been several female XI's...dunno for sure one way or the other! I had some assumptions about what would have been involved due to the nature of the degree, which would seem to preclude women from becoming XI's, but apparently they were incorrect. . > As an aside, I'm hearing references to a book in print about > women in the GD though I haven't seen the book and am wondering > if it's the same book Julia Phillips mentioned a friend of hers > was coming out with. > I heard about the book also, and I figured it was the same one Julia referred to a while back--I *think* the author's name was the same as the one she mentioned, but I ain't 100% positive. This is one that was just recently published, yes? > Doubt if it's relevant to your search for leavings of wine but > thought I'd mention the principle of contagion that some people > I know use in practice. > > Say for example someone has some water from a well sacred to > Brigit in Ireland. By continually adding more water to that > bit she's collected, the water still retains the magickal > principle because there's always a trace of the original water > in it. Makes sense. :> Hmmm, I'd have to find the 'leavings' first before I could add anything to em...and one Cake of Light wouldn't last very long if you crunched it up and added it to a new batch of batter. LOL...I heard one theory lately, that 'leavings of red wine' is the half-inch left in the bottom of the bottle after a celebration! That'd sure be easier to come by than trying to learn to make my own wine just for the leavings, specially since I don't drink wine. Love is the Law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: All 20 Nov 94 12:05:14 Subject: SEKHET AT THE QUARTERS UpdReq I would have put Sekhmet in the South but to quote from Budge's _The Gods of the Egyptians_, Vol. 1, p.514: "In comparatively late dynastic times Sekhet and Bast were identified with forms of Hathor, and were regarded as the goddesses of the West and the East respectively, just as Nekhebet and Uatchet were the goddesses of the South and the North respectively. Each goddess had the head of a lioness, but the body of Sekhet is said to have been draped in a red garment whilst that of Bast was arrayed in a green garment" Pity Budge doesn't give the color of the garments of Nekhebet and Uatchet. Regards, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 20 Nov 94 20:32:50 Subject: Re: ORGANIZATION UpdReq Hahahahah! :) If Hell was like that I would become one quick Christian. :) -Raven 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 20 Nov 94 20:34:44 Subject: Re: SEKHMET UpdReq Yikes.. your saying philosophical type things... I am gonna get a headache. :) And a special message to all my brothers and sisters. Never over-stress yourself on a full moon, because it will haunt you for two days of complete and utter headache!! :) -Raven 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 20 Nov 94 20:38:22 Subject: Re: SEKHMET UpdReq I can identify with Sekhmet, because in my group, I am a Priest of Bast. I can identify with Dark Goddesses, because my patron before Sekhmet was Nebet Het, called the Dark Isis and before that it was Cerridwyn. I alot of times, identify with the Dark Goddesses, because as Ellen Reed said in her book Invocations of the Gods, Bast is not a lovey-dovey mother goddess.. she does not scold you and say "Do better next time", she wacks you on the head and says "Fixit Dammit".. :) And plus, she has saved me from several bad expierences.. I love her more than anything, and pledge devotion unto death. :) May you have the Power of the Pagan and the Wisdom of the Witch! -RavenWind of Feather-Wing 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 21 Nov 94 09:58:44 Subject: Great God AC? UpdReq TMT> Just don't reestablish another Christianity like the TMT> OTO seems to be doing. Question, doubt and disbelieve. One point -- the OTO in Grady's time might have been considered guilty of Crowleyanity, though mostly it was individuals within the org, but the modern OTO takes pains to see that it's members do not fall into that trap. If you get a chance, read the Link. I think you'll see what I mean. There have been extreme cases, like the Yugoslavian who shot his dog because "there is death for the dogs." but they get thrown out immediately. What info from OTO made you think they are trying to do as you say? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 21 Nov 94 10:02:42 Subject: OTO UpdReq TMT> Does anyone here know if the rule still stands in the TMT> OTO that you cannot advance to a certain grade until TMT> you have 111 members in your lodge? Just curious. Not true, and probably never practised. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718