From: Zepher Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 30 Oct 94 04:58:44 Subject: Re: book of coming forth UpdReq On 23 Oct 94 10:49am, Josh Norton wrote to Michael Aquino: MA>> My answer to your question was completely straightforward. MA>> Hegel's dialectic idealism is quite pertinent both to your MA>> query and to the philosophy of the Temple of Set generally - MA>> as, for that matter, to Crowley, whose GD-derived concept of MA>> "successive, evolving aeons" is DI in "occult drag". JN> Forgive me, but no one except a tenured professor would JN> consider your answer responsive, especially in light of my JN> request that the answer concern what _you_ have discovered JN> from _your_own_experience_. The literary corpses of dead JN> philosophers -- or dead magicians -- aren't important at all; JN> what is important is what you have taken from them, what you JN> have made of what was taken, how you use it, and where you JN> have gotten as a result. Hello Josh. Just wanted to add some thoughts. I think it's prudent to examine or at least consider the remains of the "literary corpses" of "dead philosophers/magicians" (dead, but perhaps only in the physical sense). It's possible that someone will "see" what others could or would not. Of course, there will be an amount of the "deceased" Work that will remain vague or lost to most or even all but perhaps the deceased. For myself it's important to explore the thoughts, findings, and behavior of those I interact with. Those with whom I correspond with in regards to magic as well as those on a temporal level. It is however more meaningful to me when I combine my exploration with the abstract. In doing this I find I am able to better comprehend and appreciate the initiatory "struggles" of those I observe and at the same time find relevance to that of my own struggles. It seems that you want lucid information in regards to a study that is in no uncertain terms ambiguous. I find it unlikely that Michael Aquino or anyone else will be able to give a synopsis that will do justice to the magnitude of what is realized through years of Initiation. Still, I understand your wanting to obtain one. What originated or originates from wellsprings of magical thought are often misconstrued or even polluted when they're not delved into deeply (I've done both a few times myself). Sure, details when viewed separately may seem irrelevant and evasive - just as you implied in a previous post. However, when combined these details can be viewed as a whole, even if only for a fleeting moment in time. But within this moment a means towards transformation exists. Even subtle details are important - if only to those who take the time and energy to put them together. One facet of a diamond is but one aspect of it. If you don't uncover more facets you will miss the brilliance of its combined symmetry. Still, once uncovered and viewed the question remains: What will I do with this newly found treasure? H. J. Mowry, Jr. * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 9 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Martin Krogh-Poulsen Area: Thelema To: Ned 27 Oct 94 04:58:18 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq well, hi Ned! it was around Thursday September 22 1994 that Ned informed JOSH NORTON: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law! N> Which point contradicts your earlier assertion of the "US/Soviet N> rivalry" 's universal influence. In any event the 1980's, while N> certainly as turbulent as any other time period, were not as clearly N> characterized by some over-arching theme as the 40's were by WWII. N> "Cower" and "abased" are fairly unequivocal terms whose contextual N> meaning one may expect to be plainly manifest, particularly if we N> take the first clause ("Warrior Lord of the Forties") as referring N> to WWII. If the cowering and abasement are supposed to be comparable, N> one shouldn't need to tease and filet current events to extract their N> essence. It does leave me wondering whether this might indicate N> that the verse isn't meant to be read prophetically. I did think your N> exposition was very good, lots better than similar broodings I've had N> limping ill-formed through my thoughts since the mid 80's. However, N> I still dont find the argument convincing. N> Ned. Well, what if we waited a couple of years and took a look at the comming developments! They might make the eighties look like a picnic in comparison... Martin Krogh-Poulsen 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: V.V. Area: Thelema To: All 1 Nov 94 14:46:16 Subject: a place to start UpdReq From: jt@brewich.com (V.V.) Newsgroups: pod.thelema Subject: a place to start Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law Michelle.Hass@f0.n9700.z93.fidonet.org (Michelle Hass) writes: >> And to speak to another post, this from one who considers this to > be a "Restriction" and therefore a sin under the Law of Thelema, > I ask this: is gravity a restriction? It's a law, it restricts > our ability to just jump up and fly, or hop around as if we were > on the Moon, and yet it is a reality. There are certain laws of > nature. Perhaps this is one of them. that would have been mine. the thing is, gravity is not a law, it is an observa tion based on incomplete human data. you can negate gravity in a number of ways (all limited) ie:under water, in a plane by diving, by leaving the sphere of ear th's influnce. no human concieved laws can govern ALL, because of incomplete ev idence(sp?) We have these natural laws we have compiled through centuries of ob servation, but all are based on more than just a little conjecture. I see 10=1 along the same lines. Just a point of idea here, if one made the 10=1, would one share this with others? there is no law beyond Do what thou wilt, so by that v ery verse, it would indicate there is no reason why a mere mortal human could no t attain 10=1. Love is the Law, Love under Will jt V.V. 128 >> In Thelema, > --.\\<-H-- There is no law beyond Do what thou Wilt +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ - jt - jt@brewich.com - Nobody will ever let you know, when you ask the reasons why, they'll just tell you that your on your own, fill your head all full of lies. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Silveroak Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 29 Oct 94 22:39:02 Subject: Re: Thelema & Its Studie UpdReq -=> Quoting To Meta Therion to Silveroak <=- S> book or is it photocopies of a book in a binder? Still 225$ is a bit much. S> Seeing as me and the fiance have a little one comming in december I will S> have to keep it on the back burner for now. But thanks S> alot for the address TMT> I don't know, but I sent off for more info and will keep you updated TMT> if I can. Ok great thanks. Will be looking forward to it. Denis ... Church of the Nuclear Messiah - Salvation via radiation. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andy Bender Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 27 Oct 94 08:28:00 Subject: Therion'S New Attitude UpdReq TT> This reply is going to you, but it might as well be TT> directed to all. I have recently taken a drastic change in TT> my views. The volitality of my responses to this date has TT> been the period of chaos in between this change. I am not Well then, from a magical perspective perhaps you'd like to describe this change of views? Where did the change originate? What were you before, what are you now, and how would you describe the chaotic transition? Et cetera. TT> denying that some of my previous statements have been TT> idiotic, pointless, and fueled by something other than TT> Love. I just ask that you and others reassemble the view TT> you have of me by my responses as are being generated in TT> the present and not the past. The views will be reassembled if you actually show some change in your attitude. You don't need to ask us to do that, it will be automatic, and a part of your new attitude. LVX ___ X RM 1.3 01655 X Ankh if you love Isis! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andy Bender Area: Thelema To: All 27 Oct 94 08:48:02 Subject: Tzaddi Is Not The Star UpdReq (Message originally from FRA:. MICHAEL 111 on the Qbl echo) F1> Sun Tzaddi Tz 90 Aquarius F1> Star Resh R 200 Sun "Tzaddi is not the Star". Right? Why, then, is the adoration of the Sun Liber Resh sub figura CC? That would imply that the Sun is, in fact, Resh, number 200. Confusedly yours, in L.V.X. ___ X RM 1.3 01655 X Atheism: A Non-Prophet Organization 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: Andrew Haigh 1 Nov 94 09:10:00 Subject: Natural laws? UpdReq MH> And this message could conceivably be taken literally. Just because MH> the grade 10 = 1 exists, doesn't necessarily mean that it is open MH> to mortal man. AH> Then learn of your inherent immortality.Everything is open to AH> everyone who knows where and how to seek it. If it is impossible AH> in your reality, change your reality to one where it is AH> possible. Sorry, friend. We do die. No amount of wishing away can change this fact. And there is no way of knowing with total certainty if we reincarnate, or if we simply disintegrate, or if we wind up in some "summerland" "Devachan" "Heaven" or "Hell." Remember what Uncle Al says about doubt. And lust of result. MH> And to speak to another post, this from one who considers this to MH> be a "Restriction" and therefore a sin under the Law of Thelema, MH> I ask this: is gravity a restriction? It's a law, it restricts MH> our ability to just jump up and fly, or hop around as if we were MH> on the Moon, and yet it is a reality. There are certain laws of MH> nature. Perhaps this is one of them. AH> Gravity is neither a law or a restriction, it is a 4-d warping AH> of a space/time continuum around a concentration of mass. AH> Gravity is an effect of mass in space/time no more, no less. If AH> it were something more than this then it would be a much AH> stronger force and would restrict everything from leaving its AH> environs. AH> There are no laws that cannot be subverted in one way or AH> another. Well then, can "Do What Thou Wilt" be subverted? 93 --.\\<-H-- * SLMR 2.1a * The ones who claim attainment have not attained --Lao Tzu 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: StarChild Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 1 Nov 94 09:59:32 Subject: Questions? UpdReq JP> Hello StarChild! JP>> Zomelak is actually a suburb in Cairo... S> Hmm... Do you know if it was a city in in its own rights, and/or S> whether there were any foundation spiritual schools there? JP> I don't know anything about it, other than it exists. Hmm... Wonder if we have anyone on the nets fluent in any of the Arabic tongues? It'd sure be nice to get a handle on some of this. -sigh- I have a BIG a problem with spouting or teaching ancient rite and rhyme just "because that's the way it is..." I had that problem in my own training, and a few of my students aren't real happy with it either. Makes the research pretty important... S> Its the 4th time I've heard of a Neteru origin for some of the so-called S> Celtic and Gardnerian work... JP> Coincidence? Not hardly, as I'm discovering; especially since Gardner filled in many gaps in his original tradition with Free Masonry (As did Crowley with his...) where he couldn't find particular pasages that carried off his intent -- and Masonry definitely has several Middle-Eastern roots. Interesting note: Alexandrians, Georgians, and NETW folk kept much of this Masonic influence as they changed other facets of Gardner's work to make their own traditions more comfortable to themselves. JP> Harrison's ideas always seemed way off the wall to me. Babylonian sounds JP> more likely, but bearing in mind that there could be mis-copies over the JP> years, heaven only knows how it started out :-} For us, that's all the more reason to either get to the roots of it, or scrap some portions and replace them with like-intentioned segments whose roots can be validated, and of which we can be fairly sure that no piggy-backed intent hobbles it... S> However, it begins to be possible that the work we're re-editing may be S> possibly tainted, my have Mythraic, Hermetic, and even Kabbalistic [The taint has been confirmed after seeing some other works... -sigh-] S> influences. The latter, however, is not to be confused with the taint, as S> it also appears in Woodland Celtic, Alexandrian, and several other Celtic S> family traditions. Gee: isn't research fun? JP> Sure is :) Can you tell me some more about Woodland Celtic? That came JP> recently in another conversation. That may take a while... I missed most of the Woodland Celtic presentation this last CMA Gathering, but I'm going to try to contact the presenter and see if he'd be willing to open a dialogue between us about the differences in traditions. I also met another Family-trad Celt Priest, who I thinhk has some real insights that could help, but it'll be another 6 months before I can get to him again... Blessed Be! Ed 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Haigh Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 1 Nov 94 13:58:32 Subject: a place to start UpdReq MH> In my imperfect understanding, no person who is currently embodied MH> can rise beyond the level 9 = 2, that is, the grade of Magus. It MH> might take death to get one beyond that level Then learn how to die. Become familiar with the dead spaces that surround the live spaces we inhabit. MH> This is only one theory, however. But Crowley and various initiates MH> of the G.'.D.'. Current all agree: no human in flesh can rise higher. Then learn how to divest yourself of flesh and rise beyond the limitations of the body. MH> And this message could conceivably be taken literally. Just because MH> the grade 10 = 1 exists, doesn't necessarily mean that it is open MH> to mortal man. Then learn of your inherent immortality. Everything is open to everyone who knows where and how to seek it. If it is impossible in your reality, change your reality to one where it is possible. MH> The Ipsissimus is the Gate, the Mirror of the Dao. Be the Gate, do not simply seek it. Be the Conduit. Gnosis of the Godhead is possible, and Ipsissimus is attainable, just hard to interpret into laryngeal/manual symbol system for communication to others. MH> And to speak to another post, this from one who considers this to MH> be a "Restriction" and therefore a sin under the Law of Thelema, MH> I ask this: is gravity a restriction? It's a law, it restricts MH> our ability to just jump up and fly, or hop around as if we were MH> on the Moon, and yet it is a reality. There are certain laws of MH> nature. Perhaps this is one of them. Gravity is neither a law or a restriction, it is a 4-d warping of a space/time continuum around a concentration of mass. Gravity is an effect of mass in space/time no more, no less. If it were something more than this then it would be a much stronger force and would restrict everything from leaving its environs. There are no laws that cannot be subverted in one way or another. @:|---- 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Haigh Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 1 Nov 94 13:58:10 Subject: Covens UpdReq TMT> Yes, One should always keep a beginner's mind. The mind of a child is a wonderful thing, clear of conceptions and misconceptions, too bad we become so filled with neural garbage by the time we become adult. TMT> Guess I'm one up on myself, because I have come to understand this. TMT> By the way, I just went through a drastic personality TMT> shift a little over a week ago. Is this the TMT> experience that you speak of earlier? Certainly could be part of it. For me the experience has been akin to lifting a completed jigsaw puzzle off of the table, throwing it to the ground, and scattering the pices about. As the pieces are recovered and replaced into the image, one finds that, not only has one discovered new pieces which seem to fit better than the old ones did, but some of the old pieces don't fit at all. But the overall effect is one of increasing structure in the chaos of personality. AH> What does not kill me makes me stronger... TMT> Yeah, there it is. TMT> How long does this last? Lifetimes? It seems to me TMT> that you wouldn't have to be a mystic or magickian to TMT> do this, but perhaps I am wrong. Anyone can live along those lines, one need not be a lunatic such as I to do it. Who knows how long it will last though, I sometimes feel that I have been walking this path in one form or another for eternity, at other times it feels as though I was the last to board the bus, and everyone is having a great deal of fun laughing at my stupidity and ignorance. But no, one need not be mystic or mage to do this at all, it has gotten a lot of people through times of great hardship without their being focussed on anything magickal at all. @:|---- 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 1 Nov 94 20:26:00 Subject: a place to start 1/ UpdReq Michelle Haas was talking to To Meta Therion about a place to start... Hi Michelle! MH> MH> In my imperfect understanding, no person who is currently embodied MH> can rise beyond the level 9 = 2, that is, the grade of Magus. It MH> might take death to get one beyond that level, and at that point, one MH> merges their essence and what is left of the personality after MH> successfully crossing the Abyss with the Archetypical Being that is MH> known to the Adepti of the West as Hermes Trismegistus, or Tehuti. MH> In essence, all who get to the 10 = 1 level become part of the MH> archetype, which is an archetype which exists in practically every MH> culture on the Planet. MH> A few years ago I might have agreed with you about this. Now I'm not so sure. I'm a bit rushed at the moment, but a couple of comments seem appropriate. In G.D./A.A. terms, I'm a mere Magister, so I can't speak with authority about those higher grades. But my experience so far suggests that one can actually achieve that grade while still in incarnation. It cannot be directly manifested in the worlds of form, since the finite cannot enclose the transfinite, but that's another matter. Alice Bailey and her mysterious master had some interesting ideas about this. In several of their books, they present diagrams correlating the structure of the human being with the seven "planes" of their system. These diagrams essentially duplicate the cabalistic version of that structure, with one important exception: The human "monad", their equivalent of the Kether aspect, is on the _second_ of the seven planes, not the first or "divine" plane. This implies that Kether, while seemingly One, is in some very subtle sense still dualistic, and therefor experiencable while in incarnation. Second, I would be _extremely_ hesitant to ascribe archetypality to any of the Supernal Triad. The experience of Binah, at least, seems to negate the possibility of anything like Platonic "ultimate" archetypes, and relegates what archetypes there are to the spheres of the Ruach. Binah is a sea of unconditioned possibility out of which absolutely anything can arise. Whatever arises thereafter becomes an archetype in a more limited sense, but since it is contained within Binah (along with all the lower spheres) it is in no sense ultimate. What little I have so far seen of Chokmah suggests that its nature is unconditioned creativity; it may be the Father of form, but has no intrinsic form of its own, nor any innate tendency except to create. The highest level at which I have seen anything resembling archetypes is Chesed. The Chesed aspect is the essential pattern out of which come all the activities and natures of the finite being or individual "soul". While I was still moving up to that level, the patterns often seemed to me to be something like a Platonic Ideal, a reduction of a thing to its essential elements. But these patterns differ from the platonic conception in one important way: you can push the consciousness beyond their level, and when you do, they collapse into chaotic bits. They are neither ultimate nor immutable. This being said, I have to admit that experiencing these "ideals" was a hell of a thrill while it lasted; you've got a real treat in store when you get that far. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Ned 31 Oct 94 14:34:02 Subject: Synthesis and exposition UpdReq N> Formal (and hence, insincere) apologies for wading into your 3-way N> wrangle. N> [long exposition sacrificed to the gods of bandwidth] The more the merrier! Well-said stuff. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Therion Area: Thelema To: Silveroak 2 Nov 94 15:14:50 Subject: Re: Thelema & Its Studie UpdReq I recently saw a message posted that the fees for initiations have been dropped if that helps. It saves $66 anyway. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Therion Area: Thelema To: Andy Bender 2 Nov 94 15:15:52 Subject: Therion'S New Attitude UpdReq AB> Well then, from a magical perspective perhaps you'd like to describe AB> this change of views? Where did the change originate? What were you AB> before, what are you now, and how would you describe the chaotic AB> transition? Et cetera. I would like to say that I have a straight answer for your questions, but I do not. I have been discussing the situation with Andrew Haigh for a bit now and am still trying to decipher what occured. It seemed that I was attributing too much to my own ego, and a thought popped into my mind that did an excellent job of showing me this. I spent days trying to reconcile this thought with my own psyche, and in so doing, I reemerged with a new perspective and new world view. Why this occured I can not tell you, but I see it as some sort of initiation. I have passed through an insanity that was not invoked by me, but was thrust upon me perhaps by my HGA. Where I stand in a magickal hierarchy now is as uncertain as where I am going, but where I was seemed to be hellish and puerile when I compare it to my standing now. It is akin to looking back at one's views on girls in high school when you are now thirty. I believe that before the transition, I was running into spiritual problems that could not be resolved by my current thought structure. To rectify this problem, a series of events occured that allowed/forced me to see myself and the world in a new light. Call it death and rebirth, call it foolishness, call it what you like, but I feel that I am a better person for having gone through it and I would not shun the process if it happened again. I almost lost my fiancee, I was going to drop out of college, I sought to exalt myself, and I felt the pains of frustration. Now that I recall, it might have had something to do with a swerve from my True Will, trying to work ahead, but that would not explain the delusions that encompassed my being. If you have any questions or thoughtful comments, I would be glad to hear them. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: To Meta Therion 2 Nov 94 08:06:00 Subject: 10 = 1 discussion UpdReq TMT>Thank you for your insight. I can not argue with you about TMT>whether one can attain 10=1, but I can hope that it is a TMT>possibility. I am the sort that must keep working until I TMT>advance to the pinnacle. If I must die, then so be it. Is TMT>not a journey through the abyss a death? True. very true. TMT>The Abyss? I don't know. I may have entered it/crossed TMT>it/died already, but TMT>I don't even allow myself to think those thoughts seriously TMT>because I have no proof of such an occurance. Well, from what I understood from everything I've read, If you cross the Abyss YOU KNOW IT. Then again, what do I know? TMT>I think that it is a safe assumption to TMT>put me in Malkuth, We're all in Malkuth one way or another. We've got BODIES. We've got a Nefesh. And Malkuth ain't such a bad place either. TMT>because someone writes something down, even Crowley, TMT>doesn't mean that it is true. Something I have lived by in all my magickal life. I believe even the books that Crowley designated in Class A, even Liber AL, are not to be swallowed whole without critical thought. I am enjoying this conversation. You seem to be very intelligent and grounded now. My first impressions of you were misleading me. I have run into so many pompous fools on THELEMA...good to hear somebody say "I don't know." Cause I don't either. I'm still learning. --.\\<-H-- * SLMR 2.1a * Do What Thou Wilt -- not just a good idea, but The Law! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 2 Nov 94 06:46:20 Subject: Re: 93? 93! Rec'd UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > I see this, and I hope you see this reply. I have changed a few > settings, and hope that the new archiver layout will improve the > sitch. Sorry about that! Whew! Yup, saw the reply. :> Thanks Tony...I *do* hate an empty Thelema echo first thing in the morning! Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 31 Oct 94 13:45:00 Subject: gnosis letter UpdReq TM> Like I said, no offense. Send me a snail mail address and I'll post you a TM> photocopy toot sweet. TM> Tim B. Rowe 146 Congress Run Rd. Cincinnati, OH 45215 ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Keith S Schurholz Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 1 Nov 94 10:55:16 Subject: Re: C.F. Russell and Michael Bertiaux UpdReq TI> Sounds interesting! I think you have everything we have in the TI> archives? Though I don't remember looking for K-H specifically. 93! Hiya Tony I. Yes there is a slew (sp.?) of new material re: both C.F. and Krum-Heller. I am on the verge of getting two new poems (!) by Russell, and we have a lot of new F.R.A. material (K-H's group) to translate. Much of his stuff is in print in South America, some of it in "bootleg" versions. I buy more everytime I'm in LA. However there is more "unpublished" material of late which is very interesting. Why? Because it relates to the spread of the Gnostic mass outside of the OTO circa 1940-1970. I will be in NYC area in Dec. - hope to visit you then 93:93/93 Keith S Schurholz 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Haigh Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 2 Nov 94 14:03:34 Subject: Natural laws? UpdReq MH> Sorry, friend. We do die. No amount of wishing away can change this MH> fact. And there is no way of knowing with total certainty if we MH> reincarnate, or if we simply disintegrate, or if we wind up in MH> some "summerland" "Devachan" "Heaven" or "Hell." Remember what MH> Uncle Al says about doubt. And lust of result. Is Plato truly dead? Crowley? the Bhudda? Jesus? There is a way to ensure the existance of the soul/mind/self/whatever-you-would-call-it after the demise of the body. I am not wishing for something impossible, but in my reality there is a slim chance of bodily immortality, and a better chance of enduring existance in the racial overmind. Just because you think it impossible does not make it so. Our realities only converge in this forum, and as this convergance is limited it is foolish to claim that the rules of your reality bind me as tightly as they bind you. MH> Well then, can "Do What Thou Wilt" be subverted? Of course. Have you never made a decision that has taken you away from your Will? Everyone does at some point in their existance, and just so long as you realize that you can always return to that perfect line towards perfection, you will still be doing well. @:|---- 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718