From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 15 Oct 94 05:55:00 Subject: organization, hazards & UpdReq 93- MH> And well it should be. Much of the Book of the Law consisted of MH> specific information for Crowley himself...of a personal nature MH> that does not necessarily apply to every reader. But the meat MH> of the book, indeed, is meant to speak to every human being in MH> a voice that each can understand. Possibly- though since at times I take it in different ways that what you describe, I'd refrain from even such a broad qualification. MH> AA> I hear a lot about people idolizing Crowley, but I MH> AA> can't say I've met anyone actually like that. (Not that MH> AA> I'd want to.) MH> MH> There are enough out here in LA to go around. And I have met MH> some MH> of them and believe me, you wouldn't want to. Prob'ly not. Happily, it seems less of an affliction here in Seattle, though you can never tell- it might just be the people I know. MH> -- condensed from Letter 31, "Magick Without Tears" MH> Aleister Crowley. MH> MH> So there you go. I see Thelema as a philosophy in the best MH> textbook MH> sense of the word: it has a Metaphysics, an Ethics, an MH> Epistemology MH> and various other earmarks that you probably learned about in MH> Philosophy 101. It is not necessarily a religion. Agreed. curiously, there are people who do take Thelema as a religion and those who don't- such as one brother here who is Jewish and considers Judaism his religion- Thelema is a philosophy. Others, especially those who are really into the Gnostic Mass, take it really as a religion, it seems to me. I'm not sure Crowley knew what it 'was'- though I suppose (obviously) it's up to each individual. If I had to declare a religion, it would be Thelema; I consider myslef a Thelemite. Thought maybe I'd rather consider myself not religious. Nice hearing from you. 93/93 /\ . . \./ \,/ -AR AAKHU-T X >< X /'\ /`\ bb125@scn.org \/ 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 15 Oct 94 11:34:00 Subject: gnosis letter UpdReq Thus said Tim Maroney to Josh Norton concerning Re: gnosis letter: TM> No offense, my friend, but you might consider reading my article TM> before deciding that you disagree with it.... Hi Tim! Since it wasn't on alt.magick during my short attendance there, and the rag in question isn't available here, and Chris quite rightly declined to violate copyright by posting it, I had to go by his description. And I don't recall saying anything terribly critical in response. If you'd care to post it -- as the author, I assume you can -- I'll revise my "I can see how he got that feeling" opinion to whatever fits what you really said. Regards, Josh ... I'm not a complete idiot -- several parts are missing. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Aquino Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 14 Oct 94 06:29:12 Subject: Re: Sekhmet UpdReq MH> I don't know, but as far as my own work with Lady Sekhmet, I see Her MH> as being the feminine aspect of Heru Ra Ha, the female aspect of the MH> Lord of the Aeon. If Heru Ra Ha is (as is spoken of many times in MH> Thelemic literature) an androgynous being, a female aspect is not MH> unheard of. And in Egyptian mythology Sekhmet was the sister/wife MH> of Hoor sa Ast, Horus the son of Isis. (As opposed to Her-Ur, the MH> original Hawk-headed Lord of the pre-dynastic Egyptian tribes) Egyptian religion is a marvelously-confusing study, because each cult center not only had its own god/dess, or triad of deities, but also tended to develop its own self-serving incorporation of everyone else's deities as well. Hence the Osirian cult's incorporation of Set, Anubis, Horus, Sekhmet, et al. in variations complimentary & enhancing to Osiris & Isis. So the Osiris cult might describe Sekhmet as Horus' [the Younger] wife/consort/whatever, but in Sekhmet's own cult center her husband was the lion-god Nefertum. Today people get very partisan about gods, demons, whatever. The ancient Egyptians were far more flexible [=mature] about the whole business, being perfectly happy, for the most part, to adopt this god in, lend that one out, and so forth, without anyone throwing tantrums about it. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Aquino Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 14 Oct 94 06:15:20 Subject: Re: book of coming forth UpdReq JN> Okay, so to what extent and in what ways can the Neter be influenced by JN> its reflections, and/or the rest of the universe? I use influence in the JN> general sense of "producing a change of state, reaction or response". How can the principle of the sphere be "influenced" by a red rubber beachball in Toys R Us? Is the principle "aware" of that particularization? Every particularization expands the scope of the principle - pushes outwards on the limits of its universe, one might say. In the case of the principle of consciousness of the self (=Set), this would be no less the case, and the Neter would partake of the awareness of its particularizations accordingly. You might Cf. Georg Hegel's discussions of the "overmind", although he saw the OM as something *driving* and controlling individual minds on a collective basis - which would not apply to a Setian situation of each individual mind possessing [at least the potential for] free will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Aquino Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 14 Oct 94 06:35:54 Subject: Re: Academia & Philosophy UpdReq AA> On the other hand, I was fortunate enough to get into a religious AA> studies program with a really terrific Eastern Religion section- quite an AA> immersion into the major Eastern traditions, with plenty of appreciation AA> for gnosis as the heart of it all. I wasn't inclined to 'convert', but I AA> did feel like I'd experimentally jumped into new worldviews and idea AA> structures for months at a time. Really a good experience, I'd say. One of life's best experiences. I did a lot of my graduate work with Professor Raghavan Iyer at U.C. Santa Barbara. He is one of the Top Guns of the Theosophical Society on an international scale, a member of the Club of Rome, doctorate from Oxford, and a mega-brain. And a nice guy, who both understood and respected my path to initiation as I did his. I drank cool, clear water at his seminars. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Haigh Area: Thelema To: Zeekram 15 Oct 94 03:12:04 Subject: Fire! UpdReq Z> Does any one know a simple ritual for fire? Z> The ritual that I have made is hard and time comsuming! Z> And for little progress!!It took me 2 and a half hours Z> just for the twigs to smolder!!! First you need to conjure a salamander, for this you either need matches or a lighter. I'm sure you can take it from there... @:|---- 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Brian Dare Area: Thelema To: Zeekram 15 Oct 94 11:22:04 Subject: Fire! UpdReq ZE>Does any one know a simple ritual for fire? ZE>The ritual that I have made is hard and time comsuming! And ZE>for little progress!!It took me 2 and a half hours just for ZE>the twigs to smolder!!! I can, obviously, only speak for myself, but why would you want to waste time and effort on physical effects like this? Who would you be trying to impress? There is a far more inspirational Fire, and this, IMHO, is what you should seek, for if you catch a glimpse of it, you might liberate yourself from wasting what little time this incarnation affords us. "And when, after all the phantoms are vanished, thou shalt see that Holy and Formless Fire, that Fire which darts and flashes through the hidden depths of the Universe. Hear thou the Voice of Fire!" ___ X SLMR 2.1a X Subtitles for the Culturally Impaired 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 15 Oct 94 16:27:04 Subject: chaos magick practice UpdReq Thus said Michelle Hass to Josh Norton concerning chaos magick practices: JN> Concensus JN> reality never fit me very well. MH> MH> I'm not sure how old you are, 40-something, at the moment. MH> but it seems like there has been at least MH> two generations of children who have grown up with the paranormal as MH> their constant companion. Practically all my friends have had _some_ MH> experience with non-ordinary entities/consciousness/experiences. I MH> suspect that the children of the late '50s-on are part of a new MH> evolutionary leap. Perhaps the alienation of so-called "Generation X" MH> has a lot to do with this...not buying into consensus reality because MH> they have lived with non-ordinary reality all their lives. Economic MH> factors like downward mobility also has a great deal to do with this MH> alienation as well, but I think there's a consciousness gap between the MH> WWII/early Boomer generation and the later Boomers/Gen-Xers. Mmmm. My observation is that such "generation gaps" are more apparent than real, especially where the magickal side of things intrudes. Every generation -- at least in the last 150 years or so -- has had a proportion of people interested in the occult, and another portion that has had "magickal" experiences. (These two don't necessarily overlap to any great extent.) I've seen that "new evolutionary leap" idea in writings from all those generations, too. If we could look back over a longer period in enough detail, I suspect we'd find that all these perceived differences between generations are cyclic rather than progressive. One generation has a particular shared context, the next generation reacts in a certain way against it, a third reacts in another way against the second until. Somewhere along the line a generation reacts to its predecessor by becoming exactly like the first, and the whole round starts over again. In any case, these stereotypes rarely fit more than a small percentage of the people in a given generation. The large majority of folks, regardless of their generation, tend to worry most about their immediate needs, and let the stranger part of life slide past. For every hippie or gen-xer who fits the advertised mold, there are fifty who are just trying to get on with their lives. It's just that the noisy ones get the attention in our event-hungry media. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: JOSH NORTON 14 Oct 94 09:51:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS MAGICK PRACTICE UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Joseph Max <=- [I snipped Josh's reply about consenual reality and symbolic representation in magickal work, but it's obviously well-thought out, not chauvanistic and works very well for him. Well said...] JM> Forgive my overexhuberence on the subject, but I'm run into _so_ many JM> space-case magickal "mystics" who have gone through umpteen JM> "vision-quests" and/or "magickal initiations" that seem to have JM> produced nothing in their lives except increased discombobulation and JM> withdrawal from consesual reality. I don't call that increased JM> awareness. I think a person who has undergone a _meaningful_ initiation JM> will incorporate it into their everyday lives and express it _somehow_ JM> - which in itself _is_ an alteration of behavior. JN> While I won't say that it applies to all the cases you've seen, I'd JN> suggest that perhaps your observations of these people have covered JN> too short a period of time. The first or second effect of any JN> initiation is to produce a disruption of the normal thought-processes JN> and perceptions. And in major initiations, these disruptions will JN> occur many times before the person becomes stabilized in a new state JN> that encompasses both his old and new experiences. If you take a look JN> at these same people a few years down the road, you might find that JN> they have incorporated it. I suppose that's feasible, but I've also seen a few who have gone right off the deep-side of the Abyss, too. I met a fellow who was initiated by a brujo shaman in Brazil (he had diaries, photos, and consistant tales to tell) but couldn't keep his life together at all; a total flake, to the point of being dangerous. Before that he was a fairly successful health-food distributor with his own franchise. It had been years since his initiation, and I knew him for over a year. Some people never do find their way out of Chapel Perilous, ya know... JN> (Incidentally, this happens to _any_ complex system when you introduce JN> a new element; doesn't matter whether it's a person, a power-grid, a JN> phone network, an ecology, institution, or culture. ) JN> ... Just think--how would Bugs Bunny have handled this? JN> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 JN> -!- Courtesy of Silver Xpress JN> ! Origin: Star In The Circle BBS. To climb the Tree... (93:9030/0) JN> @PATH: 9030/0 9600/0 ... "Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue." ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: MICHELLE HASS 14 Oct 94 09:51:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS MAGICK PRACTICE UpdReq -=> Quoting Michelle Hass to Josh Norton <=- MH> On 10-13-94 Josh Norton wrote to Joseph Max... JN> I guess my own past prevents me from being entirely objective about this JN> matter. I've been having "magickal" experiences all my life, so my JN> perspective is going to be a bit different from someone who was solidly JN> tied into concensus reality and then had to break out of it. Concensus JN> reality never fit me very well. MH> I'm not sure how old you are, but it seems like there has been at MH> least two generations of children who have grown up with the MH> paranormal as their constant companion. Practically all my friends MH> have had _some_ experience with non-ordinary MH> entities/consciousness/experiences. I suspect that the children of MH> the late '50s-on are part of a new evolutionary leap. Perhaps the MH> alienation of so-called "Generation X" has a lot to do with this...not MH> buying into consensus reality because they have lived with MH> non-ordinary reality all their lives. Economic factors like downward MH> mobility also has a great deal to do with this alienation as well, but MH> I think there's a consciousness gap between the WWII/early Boomer MH> generation and the later Boomers/Gen-Xers. You mention Leary further on in your reply, and I have heard this idea put forth by Uncle Tim as well. He links the evolutionary change to the near simultaneous events of the first sustained artifical nuclear reaction and the first LSD trip - 1943. In _Info-Psychology_ he talks about it being part of evolutionary "planning" that humans discover both nuclear energy and psychedelic drugs, for this will trigger certain changes in the DNA structure that are themselves part of DNA's "ultimate plan". This process was accelerated in the mid to late 1950's by the detonation of thermonuclear bombs in the atmosphere and the subsequent radition clouds that spread over the globe, as well as the introduction of large scale fission reactor generators. This would account for the "jump" occurring with persons born in those years before environmental regulations lowered the levels of radiation released by artificial sources. Eventually, these traits may be passed on to offspring when the late Boomers and Gen-Xers breed - which is happening now (I have a child on the way myself... I can't wait......) JM> Forgive my overexhuberence on the subject, but I'm run into _so_ many JM> space-case magickal "mystics" who have gone through umpteen JM> "vision-quests" and/or "magickal initiations" that seem to have JM> produced nothing in their lives except increased discombobulation and JM> withdrawal from consesual reality. I don't call that increased JM> awareness. JN> While I won't say that it applies to all the cases you've seen, I'd JN> suggest that perhaps your observations of these people have covered too JN> short a period of time. The first or second effect of any initiation is JN> to produce a disruption of the normal thought-processes and perceptions. JN> And in major initiations, these disruptions will occur many times before JN> the person becomes stabilized in a new state that encompasses both his JN> old and new experiences. If you take a look at these same people a few JN> years down the road, you might find that they have incorporated it. MH> I think that Israel Regardie exhibited a great deal of wisdom about MH> this in insisting that potential magickal students of his would go MH> through at least a year of psychotherapy as a prerequisite. I am MH> currently laying off of active magickal practice after a very powerful MH> experience I went through (and I'd rather not talk about it) MH> reawakened some psychological problems I thought I had dealt with in MH> therapy two years ago. A person _can_ get to a very high spiritual MH> state and awaken higher circuits (cf. R.A.W., Leary and Alli) and not MH> have their emotional/psychological house in order. Arguably this MH> happened to Jack Parsons, to give one example. In fact, a good case MH> can be made that even our beloved Uncle Al was not entirely stable in MH> these areas. Nobody ever said that crossing the Abyss was supposed to be easy! MH> I'd rather put magick down for awhile and clean up my psychological MH> garbage than risk being really high...and totally nutso. "Chaos Magick -- we're not for everyone; but then, we don't try to be..." (All kidding aside, good luck on your path. - J:.M:.555) ... For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718