From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 14 Oct 94 04:07:00 Subject: organization, hazards & such UpdReq 93- MH> TM> As far as sects go, I feel that Crowley probably wished to MH> avoid MH> this because MH> TM> then you get a large group of people that think alike, and MH> Crowley did a lot of what he did to prevent the New Current MH> from MH> becoming codified into an orthodox religion, with him as the MH> Messiah. Of course, he did a lot of other things to MH> paradoxically MH> encourage Crowley-olatry, but Crowley, at his best, didn't want MH> to MH> be worshipped nor start a new religion. One of the most significant points of this I think is the Class A comment to Liber Al, that interpretation of it is up to each individual for themself, and that discussion of the contents shall be a centre of pestilence. Considering that this is directly in the face of any dogmatic 'interpretation' of the text, and that such dogma is the bane of other religions, I think he did a fine job. I can certainly say that in O.T.O. as I've experienced it, people have really lived up to this pretty well- if anything, all the Thelemites I know will be annoyingly circumspect about telling others encountering Liber Al for the first time just what the book is.. we were getting around this at a Crowleymas party the other night, and a friend of mine butted in and said "You can't get a straight answer from a Thelemite" which in that case was perfectly true and funny. :) THe only closest thing to any party line among Thelemites I know of is the idea that "do what thou wilt" means something more than "Do what you want"... but even in this case I don't think anyone's thumping the Good Book and telling others what to think. I don't think Crowley did anything to encourage others to worship him- especially not in person. I think he was more likely on the other hand to bring out his unpleasant qualities, which he took pains not to hide. I think if anything he was particularly contemptuous of the idea of idolizing him. He did make lofty comments about such personages as V.V.V.V.V. and The Master Therion, but these were titles associated with the persona of his advanced initiations and not to be confused with his daily identity. I.e- he may have assumed that persona while in an exalted state and writing a particular text, but not in normal day to day life- as amply illustrated by his journals, where he muddled along in various states of excitement and despair about it al as much as any of us. I hear a lot about people idolizing Crowley, but I can't say I've met anyone actually like that. (Not that I'd want to.) Everyone I know has enough to recognize that he was an extremely gifted person who did some superb work and who could be extremely difficult- as Lon Milo so eloquently put it, "HE was not good with people and tended to alienate those close to him". Given the chance, I'd jump to have had lunch with him, yet I bet it wouldn't have been easy. MH> encourage Crowley-olatry, but Crowley, at his best, didn't want MH> to MH> be worshipped nor start a new religion. Well, he certainly didn't want to be worshipped, but I think he did want to be in on getting a new religion going. 93/93 /\ . . \./ \,/ -AR AAKHU-T X >< X /'\ /`\ bb125@scn.org \/ 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 14 Oct 94 14:16:00 Subject: chaos magick practice UpdReq On 10-13-94 Josh Norton wrote to Joseph Max... JN> I guess my own past prevents me from being entirely objective about this JN> matter. I've been having "magickal" experiences all my life, so my JN> perspective is going to be a bit different from someone who was solidly JN> tied into concensus reality and then had to break out of it. Concensus JN> reality never fit me very well. I'm not sure how old you are, but it seems like there has been at least two generations of children who have grown up with the paranormal as their constant companion. Practically all my friends have had _some_ experience with non-ordinary entities/consciousness/experiences. I suspect that the children of the late '50s-on are part of a new evolutionary leap. Perhaps the alienation of so-called "Generation X" has a lot to do with this...not buying into consensus reality because they have lived with non-ordinary reality all their lives. Economic factors like downward mobility also has a great deal to do with this alienation as well, but I think there's a consciousness gap between the WWII/early Boomer generation and the later Boomers/Gen-Xers. JM> Forgive my overexhuberence on the subject, but I'm run into _so_ many JM> space-case magickal "mystics" who have gone through umpteen JM> "vision-quests" and/or "magickal initiations" that seem to have JM> produced nothing in their lives except increased discombobulation and JM> withdrawal from consesual reality. I don't call that increased JM> awareness. JN> While I won't say that it applies to all the cases you've seen, I'd JN> suggest that perhaps your observations of these people have covered too JN> short a period of time. The first or second effect of any initiation is JN> to produce a disruption of the normal thought-processes and perceptions. JN> And in major initiations, these disruptions will occur many times before JN> the person becomes stabilized in a new state that encompasses both his JN> old and new experiences. If you take a look at these same people a few JN> years down the road, you might find that they have incorporated it. I think that Israel Regardie exhibited a great deal of wisdom about this in insisting that potential magickal students of his would go through at least a year of psychotherapy as a prerequisite. I am currently laying off of active magickal practice after a very powerful experience I went through (and I'd rather not talk about it) reawakened some psychological problems I thought I had dealt with in therapy two years ago. A person _can_ get to a very high spiritual state and awaken higher circuits (cf. R.A.W., Leary and Alli) and not have their emotional/psychological house in order. Arguably this happened to Jack Parsons, to give one example. In fact, a good case can be made that even our beloved Uncle Al was not entirely stable in these areas. I'd rather put magick down for awhile and clean up my psychological garbage than risk being really high...and totally nutso. 93, --.\\<-H-- ... OFFLINE 1.35 * There is joy in the setting-out... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michelle Hass Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 14 Oct 94 14:35:02 Subject: organization, hazards & UpdReq On 10-14-94 Ar Aakhu-t wrote to Michelle Hass... MH> but Crowley, at his best, didn't want MH> to be worshipped nor start a new religion. AA> One of the most significant points of this I think AA> is the Class A comment to Liber Al, that interpretation of AA> it is up to each individual for themself And well it should be. Much of the Book of the Law consisted of specific information for Crowley himself...of a personal nature that does not necessarily apply to every reader. But the meat of the book, indeed, is meant to speak to every human being in a voice that each can understand. AA> He did make lofty comments about such personages as AA> V.V.V.V.V. and AA> The Master Therion, but these were titles associated with AA> the persona of his advanced initiations and not to be AA> confused with his daily identity. I.e- he may have assumed AA> that persona while in an exalted state and writing a AA> particular text, but not in normal day to day life- as AA> amply illustrated by his journals, where he muddled along AA> in various states of excitement and despair about it al as AA> much as any of us. AA> I hear a lot about people idolizing Crowley, but I AA> can't say I've met anyone actually like that. (Not that AA> I'd want to.) There are enough out here in LA to go around. And I have met some of them and believe me, you wouldn't want to. AA> Well, he certainly didn't want to be worshipped, AA> but I think he did want to be in on getting a new religion AA> going. He didn't...at least, not at the end of his life when he was corresponding with Jane Wolfe/Soror Estai. " 'Would you describe your system as a new religion?' A pertinent question, you doubtless suppose; whether it may happen to mean anything...is what we must try to make clear. True, it's a slogan of [the] A.'.A.'.: 'The method of Science-- The aim of Religion.' Here the word 'aim' and the context help the definition; it must mean the attainment of Knowledge and Power in spiritual matters.... To sum up, our system is a religion _just_so_far_ [underlines mine] as a religion means an enthusiastic putting together of a series of doctrines, no one of which must in any way clash with Science or Magick. Call it a new religion, then, if it so please your Gracious Majesty; but I confess that I fail to see what you will have gained by so doing and I feel bound to add that you might easily cause a great deal of misunderstanding and work a rather stupid kind of mischief. The word does not occur in The Book of the Law." -- condensed from Letter 31, "Magick Without Tears" Aleister Crowley. So there you go. I see Thelema as a philosophy in the best textbook sense of the word: it has a Metaphysics, an Ethics, an Epistemology and various other earmarks that you probably learned about in Philosophy 101. It is not necessarily a religion. 93, --.\\<-H-- ... OFFLINE 1.35 * There is joy in the goal. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Zeekram Area: Thelema To: All 14 Oct 94 23:59:00 Subject: Fire! UpdReq Does any one know a simple ritual for fire? The ritual that I have made is hard and time comsuming! And for little progress!!It took me 2 and a half hours just for the twigs to smolder!!! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 13 Oct 94 09:00:34 Subject: MASS OF PHOENIX UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Say WHAT?! LOL. The only thing I can figure is that since AC used the term 'Phoenix' in a similar manner to the 'JupPiter' terminology, apparently some folx interpret the Mass of the Phoenix in that way...I haven't come across anything problematic myself, just wondered if this was a 'commonly held attitude' to your knowledge. > Nope, no one ever trotted that one past me. As I recall, it is on > the should-do list for "every magician of any grade" (though I don't > have the wording in front of me). No reference to gender. I cannot > think of anything in the rubric that is male-specific. I don't have the wording in front of me either, but yup, 'recommended as a daily practice for the magician of every grade' or something like that was how I recall it going. ;> I think it's fairly glorious myself, and am looking forward to making my own Cakes so I can 'do it up ferreal.' If we do manage to make a visit to my Olde Home Towne in the fairly near future, maybe you could throw a bottle of home-made Dago Red on the shelf for me to take back to San Diego! ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718