From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Sterling Scarborough 7 Oct 94 00:00:12 Subject: Re: Adopt-A-Lion Program UpdReq -=> Quoting Sterling Scarborough to <=- SS> Contact: SS> The Mountain Lion Foundation SS> P.O. Box 1896 SS> Sacramento, CA 95812 SS> Telephone # 916/442-2666 SS> Note: Special thanks to Trepan for relaying the above SS> information. SS> Nocturnally, SS> Sterling Many thanks Sterling. I will speak to my temple about the possibilities of doing somthing with this. Thank ye. May the Hawk of Heaven carry your Spirits, RavenWind ... Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Andy Bender 7 Oct 94 00:00:14 Subject: Re: Marry 'Em And Bury ' UpdReq -=> Quoting Andy Bender to All <=- AB> Greets - AB> Anybody know where I can find something approximating a Thelemic AB> marriage ritual? Or any kind of Qabalistic ritual, for that matter. AB> Much gras... AB> In L.V.X. I don't know that one exists, now note i have not been active in the Thelemic community for a good while now. You might want to check bbs's like Arena of Anon and the Eternal Golden Dawn BBS. As far as Thelemic rituals.. As soon as i can find them i get them. May Tehuti Grant Knowledge.. -RavenWind ... Don't steal.....Politicians hate competition. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 7 Oct 94 00:00:16 Subject: Re: Marry 'Em And Bury ' UpdReq -=> Quoting To Meta Thereon to Andy Bender <=- TMT> Christopher S. Hyatt wrote(?) the book Taboo: the ecstasy TMT> of Evil which contains in Chapter thirty, a copoy of the TMT> Ceremony of the Sun and Moon. TMT> The book is found in the Psychology sections of bookstores, TMT> and is published by New Falcon. TMT> Mainly the book is an annoyance, but occasional I TMT> glance through it. I did find interest in the marriage TMT> ritual myself, but anyway, Good Luck!! TMT> Tell me if you find it There is a copy of the Sun & Moon on Mysteria as well as on my own bbs. Goddess Bless, RavenWind ... My Goddess gave birth to your God. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 7 Oct 94 00:00:18 Subject: Re: organization UpdReq -=> Quoting Julia Phillips to To Meta Thereon <=- JP> Hello To Meta Thereon! JP> 26 Sep 94 15:27, To Meta Thereon wrote to Navitae: TMT> thouroughly. That's like the Christians not reading the Bible! TMT> the Muslims w/o the Koran and the Wiccans w/o Gardner or TMT> Buckland! JP> Buckland? Puhlease! JP> B*B Julia Gods Save us from that.. Buckland as the "avatar" of Witches everywhere. :) Would heaven do us that? Bright the Day, Dance the Night... -RavenWind ... I'm not born again, the Goddess got it right the first time. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 7 Oct 94 00:00:20 Subject: Re: Sekhmet UpdReq -=> Quoting Tim Maroney to Michael Aquino <=- TM> Thank you for the information on Sekhet. I have also found out from TM> other references that Sekhet/Sekhmet was often associated with TM> Hathor in a dualistic TM> relationship, reminiscent of the night-time relationship of Hekati and TM> Persephone in Greek tradition. This would tend to cast the Crowleyan TM> attribution of noon to Hathor in a better light (so to speak). It TM> also explains the text of the adoration, as the word "triumphing" is TM> more appropriate to the Sekhmet aspect than to Hathor. TM> Tim Maroney I have always linked Sekhmet to other Dark Goddesses such as Cerridwyn, Badb, Morgana, Kali-Ma, and Hecate. May the Gods Forever Bless..... -RavenWind ... I'm a happy, feminist, pagan bitch from that dark place unknown. :) ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 7 Oct 94 00:00:22 Subject: Re: Sekhmet UpdReq -=> Quoting Michael Aquino to Tim Maroney <=- MA> Glad to help. FYI I have lost count of the number of times I've seen MA> statues of other Egyptian goddesses labeled "Isis" in [quite MA> respectable] museums - even with their name-hieroglyphs as Hathor, Mut, MA> et al. perched conspicuously atop their heads! I would be satisfied if the Egyptian section of our museum would take down a sign about Bast that says.. (not exact quote) 'Bast, the Egyptian Goddess of Hearth and Home often represented with the Head of the Cat, a holy creature. She was worshiped BACK in the times before Christ.' :) Yuck! Just in Love, a Bastian' and a Het Heret'ian (Hathor) RavenWind ... Diplomacy is saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 8 Oct 94 01:38:10 Subject: organization UpdReq I love you, man. You're so funny. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 8 Oct 94 01:41:36 Subject: Re: Eyebrows UpdReq So where can I get background info about the Temple of Set as far as history and engenderment? Would that be at the same address? I'm kind of interested in why you decided to worship Set in the first place. As gods go, he's not really that big. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 5 Oct 94 18:34:54 Subject: organization UpdReq Hello To Meta Thereon! 03 Oct 94 14:05, To Meta Thereon wrote to Julia Phillips: TMT> I am not sure about the reception of Buckland in your homeland, TMT> but in Cincinatti, the covens that I am familiar with seem to TMT> completely bypass Gardner and force their members to read TMT> Buckland. I forget sometimes the differences between Britain and the USA where the Craft is concerned :) The coven style I'm familiar with doesn't force their members to read anything, but do often suggest things that might be useful. Most witches I know are more likely to be well-read in Crowley than in Buckland . TMT> I am not necessarily saying that Buckland had a clue, TMT> just that it appears that he is quite important among the Wiccan TMT> crowd in this area. And my facetious one-liner probably sounded more disparaging of Buckland than I intended. I think his big blue book is good for beginners, who can't find a coven to join, but others of his leave me cold. Just a personal opinion, and after all, every book has *something* of value :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: JOSH NORTON 5 Oct 94 09:52:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS MAGICK PRACTICE UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Joseph Max <=- JN> I think maybe we're getting back on track here... a few of your recent JN> messages (especially the ones to which I responded in yesterday's JN> batch) made me wonder if you weren't really a member of CSICOP trying JN> to infiltrate the "opposition". Would you believe that I'm a reformed member of BAS - the Bay Area Skeptics association? One of my turning points was coming across numerous references in Crowley's writings as to the value of constant skepticism when exploring one's inner universe. That, plus a deep pondering of Gleick's and Hawking's works... JN> The content was about magick, but the JN> attitude that seemed to be expressed was remarkably like that of Carl JN> Sagan or Martin Gardner. Or even more closely, of Steven Weinberg, a JN> highly intuitive man whose world-view doesn't permit him to admit the JN> existence of intuition. The difference in my case was the re-vamping of my own world-view _to_ allow the existence of magick. In many ways it was a highly personal quest, and involved a lot of study of such esoteria as quantum mechanics and the theories of the stochastic nature of the universe. The amazing thing I found was that the cutting edge of theoretical physics was describing effects and proposing theoretical frameworks that were nothing less than magickal, although expressed in different terminology. One thing I do agree with Carroll on, is that ultimately the theoretical physicists and the magicians will end up staring at each other from opposite sides of the same wall. If they pass through that wall, they end up in each others world-view. As Pete put it, "The problem for scientists is that they are observing and trying to describe effects that can only be due to something that they refuse to believe exists, and the problem for magicians is that they refuse to believe that the effects they create or observe are due to something for which equations could be written." Higher dimensionality is no longer a problem for physicists. My own efforts at coming up with a theoretical framework are aimed not a t quantification the way Carroll's are, but at simply developing a world-view to allow for the existence of magick. I posit an aetheric dimension, and ascribes parameters to it somewhat similar to Einstienian space-time, except it is effected and "deformed" not by mass, but by, well "manna", or a quality no adequate English word to describe it. Monadic theories figure in here; every monad resonates the aetheric "web" that interconnects all things. All monads effect, and are effected by, these disturbences in the web, just like all masses are effected by gravity. Rather than ramble on, let me know if you want to know more and I'll babble on at length. JM> Well, _I_ never said that older symbols are "useless". I use them JM> quite a bit! The only superstitious thing about the use of symbols that JM> I can see being a problem is if one does not recognise the fact that JM> they are _symbols_ and confuse the symbol as being the higher reality JM> itself. JN> That is certainly NOT the impression you gave before. You seemed to be JN> saying that ALL use of pre-Chaosian symbols was superstitious (your JN> word) and all the regalia and pomp of ceremonial magick useless. Au contrare! Speaking as a Grand Stellium-plus Leo, I _love_ pomp and regalia. They provide the stimulus to the subconscious mind that triggers effects on the aetheric web. All I'm saying is that nothing is absolute. There is no absolute value in old ceremonies, that new ones can work just as well, and perhaps even better; the subconscious mind is partly a product of cultural upbringing, as well as racial memory in the Jungian sense. Only the very simpleist things can be taken as absolute - the connection of the color red to blood and blood to pain, and menstral cycles; or the connection of the color green to plants, ergo spring, rebirth, food, mother, etc. The more complicated the connection, the further removed it is from fundimental reality and the less absolute it is. There's nothing wrong with using a framework like the Kabbala as long as one does not confuse it with "ultimate" reality. It's a _model_, like Bohr's model of the atom. No matter how much one could maginify an atom, one would never see a tiny clump of balls with other little balls spinning around it. That doesn't _exist_ - it's only a _model_. The model is useful because it allows us to predict chemical reactions and the like, but as quantum mechanics makes very clear, it doesn't hold up under all circumstances. Another analogy is the architect's blueprint. Take a blueprint of a building and walk inside the building and look. See anything that looks like the blueprint? Of course not - it's only a _model_. But the model allows us to pick a place to drill into a wall without hitting a pipe, so it's useful. But it isn't _reality_. It does however allow us to manipulate the reality in ways not appearent to the normal senses. JM> When I spoke of stripping away symbolism, I spoke of _useless_ JM> symbolism. For example, I know you do quite a bit of Enochian work. Do JM> you think the outrageously ponderous Golden Dawn system, with it's JM> plethora of (often conflicting) symbology and page after page of JM> excessive verbage is required to work with the Enochian archtypes? The JM> old Golden Dawn certainly thought it was, and repeatedly warned against JM> working with Enochian Magic without it. JN> The main problem I have with that is: Useless to whom? And useless at JN> what point in their careers as magicians? Personalities differ in JN> their degree of need for drama and aids to focus; I don't deny its JN> usefulness just because I now find it irritating personally. And JN> veterans can get away with shortcuts that wouldn't be possible for the JN> less experienced. Well, like the blueprint, it's going to contain a lot of "information" that doesn't help us pick the spot to drill that misses the pipe. Veterans can read past the superfluous information to get at what is needed. The problem with GD type systems is that they are loth to _ever_ admit that _anything_ is superfluous. As I said before, I come from an engineering background. The theoretical undepinnings of electronics I have a passing famililarity with, but the methods of obtaining the number of joules per electron-volt in a cobalt-berylium alloy don't help me install an electronic system in a nightclub. And the type of person who studies such things probably wouldn't know how to tap a three-phase circuit out of a power breakout box if their lives depended on it. I approach magick in much the same way - I'm interested more in practical applications and less in raw theory. I'm not trying to disparge high magick at all - I'm interested in the practical applications that bring about magickal illumination as well as spellcasting and divination. JN> As far as the G.D. goes, it's obvious that they weren't a terribly JN> experimental or creative bunch; they borrowed from earlier sources JN> without questioning the content overmuch. And as Victorian Englishmen JN> who hadn't yet absorbed the lessons of Hume and Kant, and were focused JN> on the importance of projecting the Proper Image, all that pomp was JN> probably more effective for them than for superannuated hippie like JN> me. Same here. I think they were trying too hard to get shamanism, paganism, magick, spiritism AND monotheisim into one system, and just ended up with goulash. JN> In re Enochian, I agree that all that stuff isn't necessary for the JN> invocation side of the equation; the calls and names alone are JN> sufficient in most cases to produce a response. But on the other side JN> of the equation -- making sense of the response -- a mental armory JN> full of symbols and myths is absolutely essential. I believe that the tail ends up wagging the dog. The Enochian entities will end up communicating with the seeker in whatever symbols the seeker understands. If the seeker has a large vocabulary of mythology, they'll use that; otherwise the communication will end up being very direct, intutive and non-verbal. Who is to say which one is mo' betta? For one who likes to write about and share the experience through writing, the mythological background provides a common vocabulary to communicate your experience with others. One without the vocabulary can't do that as easily, but may have a more "personal" experience. Again, who's to say one or the other is better? JN> I'd hesitate to label _any_ symbol as useless or "wrong", even if it JN> doesn't make sense to me at a particular point in time. What seems JN> useless to me at one point often turns out to be extremely useful at JN> another. Even the Bible has lots of useful stuff, once you can look at JN> it dispassionately. Point taken - I suppose the best way to describe my take on it is that it's all equally valid and/or invalid. "Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted." JM> So I guess I feel that I have followed the old maxim of "learn the JM> rules first, _then_ break them." If one hasn't learned the symbolism, JM> how can one "strip it away"? _Not_ learning it in the first place is JM> NOT stripping away. There is a difference. JN> I agree, but why didn't you say that in the first place? Well, I won't state catagorically that it is _totally impossible_ to become an adept magician without any background in the "classics" of the genre. Can one become an adept pianist without ever having studied Bach or Mozart? Maybe. Unlikely I would think, but perhaps not impossible. JM> ... why do you think that Chaos Magick JM> ignores the "initiatory" aspects of magick? In the first place, would JM> you agree that the only "true" magickal initiations are those one puts JM> _oneself_ through? Or are you of the opinion that there _must_ be an JM> "initiator" as in another human being involved? I've always felt that JM> that idea is closer to the Eastern mystical school of "guruism" -- that JM> one _must_ have a guru to attain enlightenment. JN> This was primarily a response to the results-oriented terminology of JN> your previous messages, and to your apparent insistence that changes JN> in inner states are unimportant unless they produce observable changes JN> in behavior. Forgive my overexhuberence on the subject, but I'm run into _so_ many space-case magickal "mystics" who have gone through umpteen "vision-quests" and/or "magickal initiations" that seem to have produced nothing in their lives except increased discombobulation and withdrawal from consesual reality. I don't call that increased awareness. I think a person who has undergone a _meaningful_ initiation will incorporate it into their everyday lives and express it _somehow_ - which in itself _is_ an alteration of behavior. I haven't known of you long, but I doubt you produced so much fine commentary on your Enochian work prior to your own "initiations". Doesn't increased literary output qualify as an "observable change in behavior"? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: TO META THEREON 5 Oct 94 09:52:00 Subject: RE: CHAOS MAGICK? UpdReq -=> Quoting To Meta Thereon to Joseph Max <=- TMT> So what does Chaos magick have to do with pulling from the TMT> Necronomicon. I noticed that Carroll has an invocation of Azatoth(sp) TMT> in one of his books and was wondering if he just decided to latch on TMT> to the Necro deities or if he had an alterior motive in this. While I can't speak for Pope Pete, my own take on the idea is that the universe has a peculiar way of supplying whatever deities one chooses to invest sufficiently powerful belief in. The IOT calls that particulr rite "The Mass of Chaos - A". They have similar rites to invoke other deities from various mythologies including Baphomet ("B"), Choronzon ("C"), Dionysus ("D") and Eris ("E"). So I wouldn't think that Carroll or the Pact (IOT) are particularly or exclusively Lovecraftian. TMT> Also, is Phil Hine's _Pseudonomicon_ in print? It seems that it TMT> should be, but none of the local book stores can get it in. Perhaps TMT> it isn't on Weiser? Any idea of where to purchase/order it from. You can probably get it directly from The Magical Pact of the Illuminates of Thanateros, P.O. Box 619, Huntington Beach CA 92648. I know they're hawking his latest book _Prime Chaos_ right now ($18 + $2 P&H) for the signed limited edition. TMT> Speaking of Chaos magick, what about Grant. I have heard his name TMT> pulled into that area on many occasions, but from the little I have TMT> read of his, it seems that his views are far from those of Carroll. Grant is Austin Ossman Spare's prime advocate and biographer, so you could say that he and Carroll have common "roots" but are on quite divergent paths... ... We now return to our regularly scheduled flame-throwing. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Aquino Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 7 Oct 94 09:15:02 Subject: Re: _The Book of Coming Forth by Night_UpdReq KB> Since I've missed your posts on another area, it was good to see yours KB> here regarding _TBOCFBN_. We don't always have the benefit of being KB> able to talk with someone who has done something controversial (Jack KB> Parsons being deceased, for example). KB> Since the OTO and the ToS appeal to different types of individuals, I KB> think of the likelihood of a "turf war" between our organizations to be KB> small. Quite a guy, Parsons. For quite awhile all I knew about him was the usual sound-bites, i.e. Moonchild Working, Hubbard intrigues, Moon crater, lab explosion, etc. Then the O.T.O. sent me a copy of _Freedom is a Two-Edged Sword_ (a book of essays by Parsons), which reveals him to be a quite fascinating and sophisticated philosopher & magician. I highly recommend it. It is $9.95 from Falcon Press, 1209 South Casino Center #147, Las Vegas, NV 89104 - and may also be orderable directly from O.T.O. HQ in NYC. I see no reason for any Temple of Set/O.T.O. "turf war" - nor of course has there ever been any, and we have co-existed pleasantly for a couple of decades now. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: NINEVEH Area: Thelema To: TO META THEREON 6 Oct 94 19:10:30 Subject: Eyebrows UpdReq -> So, like, are you the guy I saw on Geraldo? -> If so, you sure did have some cool eyebrows! -> -> -> --- Maximus 2.01wb -> * Origin: Star In The Circle BBS. To climb the Tree... (93:9030/0) Oh, *this* is a stunning topic for conversation. :) Certainly you can think of something else to ask. Nineveh 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 6 Oct 94 22:48:04 Subject: Thelemic Meanings UpdReq 93! If it's okay with you, I'd like to include your "What Thelemites Say and what they really mean" in the next issue of _Annuit Coeptis_. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 8 Oct 94 13:16:04 Subject: CHAOS MAGICK? UpdReq Hello To Meta Thereon! 05 Oct 94 15:05, To Meta Thereon wrote to Joseph Max: TMT> Also, is Phil Hine's _Pseudonomicon_ in print? It seems that it TMT> should be, but none of the local book stores can get it in. TMT> Perhaps it isn't on Weiser? Any idea of where to purchase/order TMT> it from. You could try writing to Phil at this address: Chaos International, BM Sorcery, London WC1N 3XX. Not sure about _Pseudonomican_, but I think "Prime Chaos" is still in print. Did you see his article about creating a demon lover in Talking Stick last year? Veerrry interesting :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 8 Oct 94 01:00:02 Subject: Eyebrows UpdReq TM> Look the wrong way? Maybe, but I wouldn't suggest that to him. TM> It was only through severe physical and magickal effort that he TM> can walk right now. If you wish to defame him, then I suggest TM> that you think about how much effort he had to put into it to TM> keep from being confined to a wheel chair before your comments TM> get off hand. Oh, get a grip. I question whether this is an infamous "Psychic Attack!!!" that morons are always claiming their flu or headaches are and you act like I'm saying he does the big nasty with little boys. Deal with it. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Sterling Scarborough 7 Oct 94 22:39:12 Subject: Re: Adopt-A-Lion Program UpdReq -=> Quoting Sterling Scarborough to <=- SS> Contact: SS> The Mountain Lion Foundation SS> P.O. Box 1896 SS> Sacramento, CA 95812 SS> Telephone # 916/442-2666 SS> Note: Special thanks to Trepan for relaying the above SS> information. SS> Nocturnally, SS> Sterling Many thanks Sterling. I will speak to my temple about the possibilities of doing somthing with this. Thank ye. May the Hawk of Heaven carry your Spirits, RavenWind ... Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Andy Bender 7 Oct 94 22:42:14 Subject: Re: Marry 'Em And Bury ' UpdReq -=> Quoting Andy Bender to All <=- AB> Greets - AB> Anybody know where I can find something approximating a Thelemic AB> marriage ritual? Or any kind of Qabalistic ritual, for that matter. AB> Much gras... AB> In L.V.X. I don't know that one exists, now note i have not been active in the Thelemic community for a good while now. You might want to check bbs's like Arena of Anon and the Eternal Golden Dawn BBS. As far as Thelemic rituals.. As soon as i can find them i get them. May Tehuti Grant Knowledge.. -RavenWind ... Don't steal.....Politicians hate competition. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 7 Oct 94 22:44:16 Subject: Re: Marry 'Em And Bury ' UpdReq -=> Quoting To Meta Thereon to Andy Bender <=- TMT> Christopher S. Hyatt wrote(?) the book Taboo: the ecstasy TMT> of Evil which contains in Chapter thirty, a copoy of the TMT> Ceremony of the Sun and Moon. TMT> The book is found in the Psychology sections of bookstores, TMT> and is published by New Falcon. TMT> Mainly the book is an annoyance, but occasional I TMT> glance through it. I did find interest in the marriage TMT> ritual myself, but anyway, Good Luck!! TMT> Tell me if you find it There is a copy of the Sun & Moon on Mysteria as well as on my own bbs. Goddess Bless, RavenWind ... My Goddess gave birth to your God. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 7 Oct 94 23:40:18 Subject: Re: organization UpdReq -=> Quoting Julia Phillips to To Meta Thereon <=- JP> Hello To Meta Thereon! JP> 26 Sep 94 15:27, To Meta Thereon wrote to Navitae: TMT> thouroughly. That's like the Christians not reading the Bible! TMT> the Muslims w/o the Koran and the Wiccans w/o Gardner or TMT> Buckland! JP> Buckland? Puhlease! JP> B*B Julia Gods Save us from that.. Buckland as the "avatar" of Witches everywhere. :) Would heaven do us that? Bright the Day, Dance the Night... -RavenWind ... I'm not born again, the Goddess got it right the first time. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 7 Oct 94 23:43:20 Subject: Re: Sekhmet UpdReq -=> Quoting Tim Maroney to Michael Aquino <=- TM> Thank you for the information on Sekhet. I have also found out from TM> other references that Sekhet/Sekhmet was often associated with TM> Hathor in a dualistic TM> relationship, reminiscent of the night-time relationship of Hekati and TM> Persephone in Greek tradition. This would tend to cast the Crowleyan TM> attribution of noon to Hathor in a better light (so to speak). It TM> also explains the text of the adoration, as the word "triumphing" is TM> more appropriate to the Sekhmet aspect than to Hathor. TM> Tim Maroney I have always linked Sekhmet to other Dark Goddesses such as Cerridwyn, Badb, Morgana, Kali-Ma, and Hecate. May the Gods Forever Bless..... -RavenWind ... I'm a happy, feminist, pagan bitch from that dark place unknown. :) ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Randolph Clayton Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 7 Oct 94 23:46:22 Subject: Re: Sekhmet UpdReq -=> Quoting Michael Aquino to Tim Maroney <=- MA> Glad to help. FYI I have lost count of the number of times I've seen MA> statues of other Egyptian goddesses labeled "Isis" in [quite MA> respectable] museums - even with their name-hieroglyphs as Hathor, Mut, MA> et al. perched conspicuously atop their heads! I would be satisfied if the Egyptian section of our museum would take down a sign about Bast that says.. (not exact quote) 'Bast, the Egyptian Goddess of Hearth and Home often represented with the Head of the Cat, a holy creature. She was worshiped BACK in the times before Christ.' :) Yuck! Just in Love, a Bastian' and a Het Heret'ian (Hathor) RavenWind ... Diplomacy is saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Haigh Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 9 Oct 94 21:46:34 Subject: Re: CHAOS MAGICK PRACTICE UpdReq JM> Would you believe that I'm a reformed member of BAS - JM> the Bay Area Skeptics JM> association? One of my turning points was coming JM> across numerous references JM> in Crowley's writings as to the value of constant JM> skepticism when exploring JM> one's inner universe. That, plus a deep pondering of JM> Gleick's and Hawking's JM> works... Which makes it rather interesting that you can still defend Carroll. With that background one would think that you could the following conclusions for and by yourself. JM> One thing I do agree with Carroll on, is that JM> ultimately the theoretical physicists and the JM> magicians will end up staring JM> at each other from opposite sides of the same wall. If they pass through JM> that wall, they end up in each others world-view. As Pete put it, "The JM> problem for scientists is that they are observing and trying to describe JM> effects that can only be due to something that they refuse to believe JM> exists, and the problem for magicians is that they refuse to believe that JM> the effects they create or observe are due to JM> something for which equations JM> could be written." This is quite correct, but it wasn't Carroll that first stated it. This is an obvious conclusion to anyone who has followed both paths far enough and long enough. If Carroll's work wasn't as borrowed and derivative then I could support his POV, unfortunatly for him I find that most of his material is a rehashed mishmash of everything else I had read before scanning Liber Null/Psychonaut. The ultimate test of his material's worth to me is the shelf test. `Is it sitting on my shelf within easy reach? Did I buy it?' No, and No. `nuff said. @:|---- 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 8 Oct 94 13:04:38 Subject: Covens UpdReq JP> Most witches I know are more likely to be well- JP> read in Crowley than in Buckland . Wow! Covens that are well-read in Crowley! Hell, we're lucky to have Thelemites well-read in Crowley from what I have heard. It would be most impressive to see Wiccans wandering around discussing Uncle Al. I'm lucky if anyone I speak to has even read Liber AL Legis. I guess I need to exit the States for awhile. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Joseph Max Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 8 Oct 94 08:42:00 Subject: Thelemic Meanings UpdReq KB > 93! KB > KB > If it's okay with you, I'd like to include your "What KB > Thelemites Say and what they really mean" in the next issue KB > of _Annuit Coeptis_. Absolutely! I am impressed and glad to see the healthy sense of humor you're expressing here! Go fo it...! - J:.M:.555 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 9 Oct 94 16:02:02 Subject: book of coming forth UpdReq Thus said Michael Aquino to Josh Norton concerning Re: book of coming forth: MA> I see no reason why the ideal (or the Neter/Form) could not MA> be *influenced* by MA> its reflections or particularizations, but "influence" is another of MA> those very broad concepts (like "isolate"!). (Still playing the Socratic Stooge...) Okay, so to what extent and in what ways can the Neter be influenced by its reflections, and/or the rest of the universe? I use influence in the general sense of "producing a change of state, reaction or response". MA> The moment you are aware MA> of something that is "not you", you are "isolate". But then there is MA> the problem of discovering "where you begin and end". It's not as MA> simple as "your body", because "you" extend to some degree to your MA> reflections/influence - and inward MA> to your soul (_ba_, _psyche_) - for which the body is a machine to MA> interact with the material universe. Yet take away the senses of the MA> body, as in Lilly's sensory deprivation tank experiments, and what MA> happens to your "self"? [Take a look at the film _Altered States_ for MA> an interesting essay on this.] A rather less absolutist position than that taken by Balanone, et. al., in last winter's discussion. Their assertion was that the core self (I assume they meant the Neter) was completely free of influence from the rest of the universe. The details of the discussion produced a rather more confused picture; they seemed to categorize some forms of contact with the rest of the universe as "influential" contacts and others as "non-influential". Specifically, they attributed to the Neter the ability to be _aware_ of the universe without being influenced by it. This seems to me to be a self-contradictory idea, since awareness necessarily involves a registration of change, and a related change of state in the aware being. Does your view of the Neter include this distinction? ... Maybe we should have subtitles for this.... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Nineveh 11 Oct 94 15:02:20 Subject: Eyebrows UpdReq Just making sure of who he is before I write meaningless dribble to an imposter. By the way, there is an ulterior motive in this anyway. Why the hell do you care?! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 11 Oct 94 15:04:22 Subject: CHAOS MAGICK? UpdReq Thanks. What is _Prime Chaos_ about, someone else mentioned it to me earlier, but I haven't heard anything about this release. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 11 Oct 94 15:05:58 Subject: Eyebrows UpdReq Psychic attack? What the hell is that? I remember a few New Agers discussing it in some lame book or other, but really, Why would you even waste your time in mentioning it. I have yet to meet a reliable source that has ever claimed of psychic attack being thrust upon his soul. You confuse me with your talks of these complex concepts that are complete dribble. Your loving Friend forever, TMT 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 11 Oct 94 15:13:08 Subject: Demon Lover? UpdReq JP> Did you see his article about creating a demon lover in JP> Talking Stick last year? Veerrry interesting :) No, I didn't, perhaps you could share the ideas. Is it in reference to Succubi and Incubi or is it far beyond those concepts. I have heard that such a thing could become quite dangerous and would lead to the death of one or the other. What does Phil have to say about that? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Randolph Clayton 9 Oct 94 16:36:00 Subject: organization UpdReq Hello Randolph! 07 Oct 94 00:00, Randolph Clayton wrote to Julia Phillips: TMT>> thouroughly. That's like the Christians not reading the TMT>> Bible! the Muslims w/o the Koran and the Wiccans w/o TMT>> Gardner or Buckland! JP>> Buckland? Puhlease! RC> Gods Save us from that.. Buckland as the "avatar" of Witches RC> everywhere. :) Would heaven do us that? Not even *HELL* would do that to us, surely? B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Andy Bender 11 Oct 94 03:26:00 Subject: Thelemic marriage ritual UpdReq 93- Just ran across a reply to your request for the above- forgive me if this is has already been said, as I've been away and have probably missed other replies. The ritual I've heard of being used is The Gnostic Mass, in a version where the people being married are the communicants- special emphasis made on the part of the collects "Unto them that this day unite with Love under Will let fall success..." etc.- Tau Apiryon can probably give you details if he hasn't already. Is it your marriage? If so, congrats! 93/93 /\ . . \./ \,/ -AR AAKHU-T X >< X /'\ /`\ bb125@scn.org \/ 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: StarChild Area: Thelema To: All 10 Oct 94 17:35:08 Subject: Questions? UpdReq Hello All! Anyone have a root land/language/interpretation for the (apparent) Names "Azarak" and/or "Zomelak?" Appreciate the help! BB Ed 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Lainie Petersen Area: Thelema To: StarChild 11 Oct 94 23:04:42 Subject: Questions? UpdReq Can't help you with Zomelak, but I have found the name "Azariah", which is a Hebrew name with many variations. The definition for the name is "Jah has Helped". Jah being a contraction of "Jahweh" (YHVH) and "azar" meaning to help or succour. I asked a very knowlegeable magician friend about this, and he said that he had never heard the name "Zomelak" but he had heard Azariak in some kind of ritual, but could not remember in what context. If you have any more specific information, let me know, and I will look into it. Lainie 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Aquino Area: Thelema To: Randolph Clayton 10 Oct 94 06:01:40 Subject: Re: Sekhmet UpdReq RC> I would be satisfied if the Egyptian section of our museum would RC> take down a sign about Bast that says.. (not exact quote) 'Bast, RC> the Egyptian Goddess of Hearth and Home often represented with RC> the Head of the Cat, a holy creature. She was worshiped BACK RC> in the times before Christ.' :) Yuck! [Me]Ow! My favorite is the conventional academic stance that "philosophy began with the Greeks". If you wander into the professor's office with some examples of ancient Egyptian speculative thought, he looks at you as though you have just dragged a UFO tailfin from Roswell into his office. Or such was my experience as an undergrad 64-68. The final inanity was coming across a [very good!] book on pre-Greek philosophy, entitled, can you dig it, _Before Philosophy_ by Henri Frankfort et al. (Baltimore: Pelican, 1946). But then college philosophy courses can be a very special kind of horror. I left the last one frightfully worried: Do you decide what you're going to think and then think it - or do you think something and then decide what it is you've just thought? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Michael Aquino Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 10 Oct 94 06:04:34 Subject: Re: Eyebrows UpdReq TMT> So where can I get background info about the Temple of Set as far as TMT> history and engenderment? Would that be at the same address? I'm kind TMT> of interested in why you decided to worship Set in the first place. As TMT> gods go, he's not really that big. The Temple of Set's General Information Letter discusses Set [briefly] as well as the Temple per se. Address again: Executive Director, Temple of Set, P.O. Box 470307, San Francisco, CA 94147. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: NINEVEH Area: Thelema To: ALL 12 Oct 94 08:32:36 Subject: Feast Day UpdReq Happy feast day! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718