From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 28 Sep 94 12:40:00 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq Thus said Julia Phillips to Josh Norton concerning Liber al prophecy: JP> Hello Josh! Hi Julia! Welcome back. JN> I suspect that it's [Thelema's] sphere of JN> influence is primarily in the "white" cultures, i.e., Europe, JN> North America, Aus-NZ, with little _direct_ effect elsewhere. JP> I'd agree with the Europe/North Am bit, but I'm not so sure JP> about Aus-NZ influence. It's difficult to describe, but in JP> Oz at any rate (and I guess the same would apply to NZ), JP> things that happen elsewhere in the world (particularly JP> Europe/USA/Can) seem very remote. It's not that they aren't JP> reported here, or given lots of air-time, just that there JP> seems to be no real impact. Course, that could just be my JP> subjective opinion :) Heh. You make Oz sound like a Jumbo Economy Size version of my home town, Cincinnati. About which Mark Twain was rumored to have once said: "If the end of the world ever comes, I want to be in Cincinnati. It won't happen there until twenty years later." ... Stop that insane laughing. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Navitae 29 Sep 94 04:02:12 Subject: Re: Qabalistic Cross UpdReq 93! The fact is that the verse from the psalm which you said contained the QC formula doesn't contain it at all. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 29 Sep 94 02:27:02 Subject: book of coming forth UpdReq > The attitude of most initiation-oriented magicians I know isn't terribly > religious. Most of them recognize that magick is always the enemy of > religion, because it seeks direct knowledge where religions insist there > must be a go-between, and even a little bit of such knowledge > demonstrates that the priests don't know what they're talking about. Josh, you and I can both think of religions that don't require a go-between and that seek direct knowledge of deities. I don't know if they're the majority but they're not a shrinking minority in a number of the Neo-Pagan faiths and then I think of groups like the Quakers and the other old antinomials. *I* certainly don't seek a go-between between myself and my gods, seeking a personal gnosis with them myself. I still consider myself a member of a religion though as well as someone learning Hermetic magic. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson Internet:mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: ANDREW HAIGH 27 Sep 94 08:34:00 Subject: Chaos and Magic UpdReq -=> Quoting Andrew Haigh to Joseph Max <=- AH> .. I work with Chaos theory quite often and AH> have had a great deal of success with it, JM> In what way do you "work with it"? Magickally? JM> Intellectually? Artistically? JM> What kind of "successes" are you speaking of? AH> All of the above. The success I refer to consist of perception AH> of the raw energy matrix which is my reality, perception of AH> the ordered attractors which shape this matrix, perception of AH> other realities beneath, betwixt, and beyond our locality. The AH> recognition of the non-linearality of Life and Existance, AH> coupled with the trancendance of each. Sounds philosophically poetic 'n stuff, but not particularly _magickal_. But I guess I usually associate the word "success" with actually _doing_ something besides contemplating one's non-linear, transcendental navel. To me, if it doesn't "cause change to occur in accordance with Will" then it ain't _Magick_. I'll count personality changes brought about by magickal illumination, but only if they result in modification of one's behavior in the world. Otherwise, one can get the same thing from a handful of mushrooms or an iso-tank with a lot less fuss and muss. JM> Which is fine, as far as _you_ are concerned. But the JM> tone you use seems to JM> indicate that you don't think it has any value for anyone else, either. AH> Don't read more into my posts than exists. If others find it AH> useful, great for them. But what currently passes for Chaos AH> Magick is, for me, mostly useless. If you think Carroll is all there is to it, then you haven't been looking very hard. I think most of, say, Kabbalism is useless FOR ME, but I don't flaunt disrespect for it or denigrate those who find it of value with a holier-than-thou attitude. And I may someday find more value in it, so I don't cut _anything_ out of my sphere of magickal interest either. JM> If you don't think "Chaos Magick" has anything to do JM> with Spare, Carroll, et JM> al, then what _does_ it have to do with other than JM> drawing pretty pictures JM> on a computer screen or chiming the strings on your guitar? JM> (I'm always amazed at what fascinates the simple mind...) AH> To me it has more to do with tapping the hidden reaches of the AH> mind, reaching a state of relative being several orders of AH> magnitude beyond the mundane and world-walking through a sea AH> of infinite probabilities. Fractal images, and harmonics are AH> but keys into this hyper-reality. More pretty words. See previous evaluation of navel-gazing. AH> (And you really should keep AH> the sarcasm in check, it is most unbecoming and instead of AH> coming of droll, makes you appear snide) I'm crushed... JM> Spare lived long before any theory of non-linear dynamics had been JM> developed, so in his case your making a highly unfair JM> assessment. The Chaos JM> ("Kia") of Spare was a metaphysical concept, not a scientific one. AH> So? From what I have read of the man, even had non-linear AH> dynamics reached the public sphere by his time ,he probably AH> wouldn't have found it interesting or inspiring. His Chaos is AH> not mine, `nuff said. Wow, retroactive mind-reading of the dead. What HAVE you read BY the man? "The Kia which can only be vaugely expressed in words is primal chaos, 'neither/neither', the unmodified 'I' in the sensation of omnipresence... It's emination is it's own intensity, but not neccesariness, it has and ever will exist, the virgin quantum - by it's exuberence we have gained existence. Who dare say where, why, or how it is related? By the labour of time the doubter inhabits his limits. It is not related to, but permitting all things, it eludes conception, yet it is the quintessence of conception as permeating existence with meaning. Anterior to heaven and earth, in it's aspect it transcends these, but not intelligence. It may be regarded as the primordal principle..." - from _The Book Of Pleasure_, A.O. Spare Sounds right up your alley, actually, judging by what you've posted here. ... Funny, only sensible people agree with me. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: JOSH NORTON 27 Sep 94 08:34:00 Subject: RE: PETER CARROLL UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Joseph Max <=- JN> My reaction to Pete's "Mathematics of Magic" is much the same as my JN> reaction to Gerry Schueler's "Enochian Physics". I.e., extreme JN> annoyance. My primary objection is: How the hell is he measuring and JN> quantifying these factors -- such as "gnosis", "magickal link", JN> "conscious awareness" and "unconscious resistance"??? Well, unlike Schueler, at least Pete stuck in a disclaimer: "The quantification of certain factors which are entered in the equations awaits more precise calibration techniques and thus they must currently be evaluated on a partly subjective basis." I realise this doesn't entirely let him off the hook, but algebra has it's uses even without always being able to plug numbers into the equations. And there is another use to "The Equations of Magic" that was very meaningful to me personally. And it was appearently the same one for Pete. I heard him speak a few years back, before _Liber Kaos_ came out. He basically ran down the ideas laid out in the "Principia Chaotica" section of the book -- the stuff that you're referring to above. But he pointed out something more that was not in the book itself. I can't quote him directly from memory, but in effect it was this: like me, he comes from an engineering background. Like me, he had a very hard time "believing" that magic could actually exist at all. As we all know, a certain level of belief _must_ be invested in it in order for it to work in the first place. He said he worked out the Equations of Magic originally as a mental exercise for his own benefit - a way of coming up with _some_ kind of logical structure to allow him to accept the existence of magic. Once that was attained, the equations "might as well be total bullshit" (his own words). But working out these equations, however tenuous they may be, "kicked open the doors of perception" to allow magic in. In a way, they did the same thing for me, so I found them valuable for that purpose. JN> It's one thing to say that the "higher" a state the magician attains JN> in his ceremony, and the clearer his symbolic connection to the thing JN> desired, the more likely the work is to succeed. Or to say that JN> meddling by the conscious or unconscious mind tends to reduce the JN> likelihood of success. Both of those statements are more or less true. JN> But it's an entirely different bag of worms to claim that you can JN> apply a numerical value to each of these factors and come up with an JN> absolute mathematical probability of the success of a working. If he's JN> actually managed to create a reliable objective measure of complex JN> subjective states, he certainly ought to publish -- a century's worth JN> of psychological research hasn't come close to doing so! Well, as I pointed out above, he never claimed to have done so. But then, has anyone ever tried hooking up a magician to an EEG or a CAT scanner and had hir perform magical work? Not that I've heard of. Maybe someone _should_! JN> Until he can come up with such objective measures, and explains them JN> in details, a reasonably intelligent person ought to assume that he's JN> just trying to impress the yokels. Maybe including himself, hmmm? Yes, exactly - and for a real, valuable purpose, as I referred to above. JN> I'll leave a critique of his "Aeonics" for another time. (Though I'll JN> remark that that "psychohistory" figure looks suspiciously like a JN> biorhythm chart.) So does a DNA strand - does that mean that we should be suspicious of the existence of DNA for that reason? JN> The rest of Liber Kaos annoys me because it seems to be just a matter JN> of applying a new set of labels to things that magicians have known JN> all along. What's the point of calling something "Blue" magick instead JN> of "Jupiter" or "Chesed" magick? Or "Orange" magick instead of JN> "Mercurial" or "Hod" magick? It doesn't contribute anything new to our JN> thinking about the subject, just makes a different column in the Table JN> of Correspondences the primary. It would make just as much (and as JN> little) sense to use the "Princess" scale of color and call "Blue" JN> magick "Deep azure, flecked yellow" magick instead. Consider it an updating then. If I can understand his system of color associations, it negates the need for me to subject myself to the archaic, mind-numbing ordeal of learning to think in terms of "Chesed" and "Hod". Most of the point of Carroll's work is to yank the Art of Magick out of the archives of the British Museum, out of the Kabbalist's cloister and drag it kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Why is it that Magick must _always_ be considered an "antique" art? I don't _want_ to have to learn Hebrew -- it makes my throat hurt! And "Blue" has much more brevity than "Deep azure flecked yellow" anyway. So why _not_ update it for 21st century sensibilities? JN> I think I'd be less annoyed with Pete if he didn't have a lot of good JN> things to say amongst all the flummery. Yes, he does. Actually, he has a lot less "flummery" mixed in to the valuable stuff than Crowley, wouldn't you say? ... Hey Mr. Crowley Man, Tally Me Kaballah! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andy Bender Area: Thelema To: All 26 Sep 94 14:04:02 Subject: Marry 'Em And Bury 'Em UpdReq Greets - Anybody know where I can find something approximating a Thelemic marriage ritual? Or any kind of Qabalistic ritual, for that matter. Much gras... In L.V.X. ___ X RM 1.3 01655 X Do radioactive cats have 18 half-lives? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 30 Sep 94 14:55:58 Subject: RTOD#2 UpdReq Mental Masturbation is alot better than Burning yourself with anger until your ego explodes. Perhaps you have invoked Mars too much. If you really want to change your conciousness, don't use magick, slap a sheet of LSD on your tongue and go to it. Hell, there are millions of ways to change your consciousness that don't take as much trouble as magick 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Michael Aquino 30 Sep 94 17:51:18 Subject: Eyebrows UpdReq So, like, are you the guy I saw on Geraldo? If so, you sure did have some cool eyebrows! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: To Meta Thereon Area: Thelema To: Andy Bender 1 Oct 94 10:37:12 Subject: Marry 'Em And Bury 'Em UpdReq Christopher S. Hyatt wrote(?) the book Taboo: the ecstasy of Evil which contains in Chapter thirty, a copoy of the Ceremony of the Sun and Moon. The book is found in the Psychology sections of bookstores, and is published by New Falcon. Mainly the book is an annoyance, but occasional I glance through it. I did find interest in the marriage ritual myself, but anyway, Good Luck!! Tell me if you find it 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kalzen Entrop Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 30 Sep 94 15:30:00 Subject: Chaos Magick? UpdReq 93 To! TMT> My theory of chaos magick is the actual pulling down and utilizing TMT> bits and pieces of the surrounding chaos and molding it into the TMT> shapes and forms that you seek. If this is to be practiced, then the TMT> resulting creation would be highly unstable and could revert to chaos TMT> immediately. If this is so, then you are correct that Carroll has TMT> just hooked on to the chaos name to grab followers. TMT> The only problem with the Chaos Magick as I understand it is that it TMT> _is_ Highly unstable, and a mistake could lead you into oblivion. This is what numerous people told me about Enochian when I first delved into it a couple of years ago. Suprisingly, the only damage I got was psychic backlash from my own overblown ego. When I accapted that I wasn't going to be superslick from the word "go" it got safer. 93 93/93 ... Day 34 Everybody lock and load. This may get messy. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 30 Sep 94 22:58:00 Subject: Liber Resh UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Hi Ar! Heard you were back. On the 2nd day of the reading of the Book of the Law you all did what seemed like a very long Resh at the top of the hill near the sundial. I'm not finding a Resh in print as long as the one you all did seemed to be. Do you recall exactly what you all did? Thank you. Love is the law, love under will. Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 30 Sep 94 23:12:00 Subject: Solar enlightenment UpdReq Hi Josh! JN> Howdy! How're things going? Pretty good. Getting ready to visit San Diego. Sis is going to let me put down a sleeping bag at her place and I'm really looking forward to meeting some of the folks down there. Then looking to get serious during the winter. I recall you telling Kayla on the Enochian echo that your scrying comes more easily seasonally in the summer. For me I want to withdraw even more than usual in the winter. I've got the extra bedroom dang near empty at the moment and am leaning towards making a temple room out of it. JN> You'll recall my method for working backwards from transits to JN> discover the "essence" of various astrological forces. Book of the Archer, right? Damn cool exercise! JN> But I still space out occasionally, as I'm sure you've noticed. You were here what, 17 days straight? You seemed pretty present to me. JN> But note that you can lose things as new levels open up, as well. I would have to agree with this for sure, especially as things lose their importance. Break the wheel! Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 1 Oct 94 00:55:00 Subject: RTOD#2 UpdReq TM> Mental Masturbation is alot better than Burning yourself with TM> anger until your ego explodes. I wouldn't know. TM> Perhaps you have invoked Mars too much. I've never invoked Mars in my life. You have no idea what my practices are. TM> If you really want to change your conciousness, don't use TM> magick, slap a sheet of LSD on your tongue and go to it. Hell, TM> there are millions of ways to change your consciousness that TM> don't take as much trouble as magick And if you want to have fun and seek enlightenment you can go to Disneyland. Sure, LSD can change consciousness and, if that's all you want, go for it. Part of the purpose of magic is the PROCESS, not just the end result. If I want to build imaginary temples, I can build them on my computer with VR programs and not spend all those years learning how to visualize and construct memory palaces. There is a reason to go through all of the work and discipline. If you don't know this, perhaps you should examine why you're doing magic. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Ralf Loeffler 30 Sep 94 23:19:02 Subject: Equinox Vol. III UpdReq -=> Ralf Loeffler sent a message to All on 25 Sep 94 13:41:18 <=- -=> Re: Equinox Vol. III <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RL> I'm looking for ascii-versions of Crowley's Equinox Vol. III No. 1-10. RL> Can anybody tell me an address for download? Try BaphoNet BBS (201)434-3694. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Ah! messenger of the beloved One, let Thy shadow be over me! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 30 Sep 94 23:20:26 Subject: Solar enlightenment UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Fir on 26 Sep 94 20:08:02 <=- -=> Re: Solar enlightenment <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> The problem isn't a lack of examples; I've got a plethora of 'em, if JN> not a surfeit. That's about 3 shy of a cornucopia, right? Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Then, O thou heart, will I the serpent eat thee wholly up; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 1 Oct 94 01:50:56 Subject: Gnosis letter UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Here's the text of the letter to Gnosis, which was run in the most recent issue. As noted, it was written in response to an article by Tim which was in the previous issue, on how worthless the nets (are in his opinion). ************************************************************************ Cari Fratres et Sorores: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. It is somehow indicative of the power of Pop that I find myself responding to _Pop Culture & The Esoteric_ (issue #32, summer 1994) instead of one of your more 'serious' issues. As one who has, like Tim Maroney ("Diary of a Net Fiend"), spent perhaps too much time in front of a computer monitor reading and responding to the stream of our collective conscious flowing through the computer networks, I can agree with Tim that the signal-to-noise ratio is indeed high. But I cannot agree with his contention that "The climate of networking neither fosters nor tolerates informed discussion ... " In my experience, the flashes of brilliance make the search for them worthwhile. Imagine a house party where, amid the banter and the bull, conversations occasionally afford expert instruction or even deep insight and inspiration. On the nets, I have talked with -and in some cases met and become friends with- such luminaries as William Heidrick and other high initiates of the O.T.O., Sir David Cherubim of the Thelemic Order of the Golden Dawn, Dr. Michael Aquino of the Temple of Set, Sallie Ann Glassman (illustrator of the Enochian Tarot, illustrator and co-author of the New Orleans Voodoo Tarot), Paul Hume (mentioned in Maroney's article, "Science Fiction and the Mythic Future" as being co-author of some of the _Shadowrun_ material), Ben Rowe (author of "Enochian Temples" and other original works on Enochian magick), and many others of less fame but equal acomplishment... including Tim Maroney, whom I remember from the days when he would drop in just to say something inflammatory, then sit back and enjoy the flying feathers! If it weren't for the computer nets, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to talk with and learn from these people. Nor would I have been able to download several thousands of pages of rare and hard-to- find works (including the entire ten volumes of Crowley's Equinox and many original works by the mentioned above). Lastly, I might not have had the honor of admission into the Ordo Templi Orientis, and order I had thought long since defunct -- until I started calling my local BBS. Love is the law, love under will. R. Christopher Feldman Fr. Vitriol Io, O.T.O. christeos_pir@f235.n109.z1.fidonet.org ************************************************************************* They edited the letter to make things fit, and unfortunately cut both your and Sallie's names. :-( Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... for mine acorns are blown afar by the wind; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Taltos Area: Thelema To: Ralf Loeffler 29 Sep 94 19:22:00 Subject: Re: EQUINOX VOL. III UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RL>Hi All, RL> RL>I'm looking for ascii-versions of Crowley's Equinox Vol. III No. 1-10. RL>anybody tell me an address for download? RL> RL>thanks, RL>Ralf. No's 2-10 are available here on Modem Magick. Check out the "Other Thelemic Stuff" library. Love is the law, love under will. Taltos 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fran Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 1 Oct 94 12:21:34 Subject: Re: The Meaning Of Thelema UpdReq JM> The Meaning of Thelema JM> ---------------------- JM> JM> WHAT THE THELEMITES SAY: WHAT THEY MEAN: JM> ___-------------------- -------------- JM> 1. Thou hast no right but to 1. Fine, don't do it my way... JM> do thou will. but it'll be wrong. JM> Liked your translations into plain English. I have another one. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." Translation..."Do whatever you want to do and don't bother me about it." "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." Translation..."If you must do such a stupid thing, go right ahead and be damned." Other that those two, I think you nailed most of them. I have heard many of these lines uttered in exactly the same way you translate them. Good job! /Q Fran 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718