From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 24 Sep 94 16:28:00 Subject: Mezla Rec'd UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. F> Liber QNA = ANKh = Venus vel Nomen Dei sub figura CLI TI > That's a nice piece. The Achad one? I am surprised they got TI >it to fit. How many pages is it? Do they mention previous TI >editions? (Level Press?) Yes it's credited to Achad but with no mention of previous editions. It's 4 pages, 43 verses. I'll get this stuff xeroxed this weekend and mailed next week. I'll look forward to getting copies of any other issues of Mezla you obtain in the future. Got your note. Thanks. You really did drop the 'H' out of your name. BaphoNet's a hell of a service to the community y'know. Love is the law, love under will. Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 24 Sep 94 16:34:00 Subject: Web of Wyrd UpdReq Welcome back Julia! I hear you're about to get a visitor from Seattle soon. I should warn you she's asking people to answer a couple of questions for her last issue of Shadowplay. She only gave me one day to come up with my answers! Do you know if Robert Turner who penned _Elizabethan Magic_ was/is in the Order of the Cubic Stone? I just assumed he was but someone recently questioned this. Thanks. Blessed Be, Fir 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Ned 23 Sep 94 19:42:00 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq Thus said Ned to Josh Norton concerning Liber al prophecy: JN>Hmmm....I'm not sure that the average peasant in, say, China, India, and JN>Uganda, found his condition any more abased during that period than in JN>the previous decades. Ne> Which point contradicts your earlier assertion of the "US/Soviet Ne> rivalry" 's universal influence. In any event the 1980's, while Ne> certainly as turbulent as any other time period, were not as Ne> clearly characterized by some over-arching theme as the 40's were by Ne> WWII. "Cower" and "abased" are fairly unequivocal terms whose Ne> contextual meaning one may expect to be plainly manifest, Ne> particularly if we take the first clause ("Warrior Lord of the Ne> Forties") as referring to WWII. If the cowering and abasement are Ne> supposed to be comparable, one shouldn't need to tease and filet Ne> current events to extract their essence. It does leave me wondering Ne> whether this might indicate that the verse isn't meant to be read Ne> prophetically. Heh. I think we're getting to the point of arguing symbolic aesthetics. Possibly I'm missing your point. Depends on how you're looking at it, I suppose. Frank Herbert once remarked that history never notices the woman who has to work in the rice paddy because someone drafted her husband for a war. The constants of existence don't count to the power-wielders until they cease to be constant. E.g., when there's no food left. At the _political_ level, the U.S./Soviet rivalry was fairly universal -- think of how often they each supported opposing sides in the brushfire wars of the 60's, 70's, and 80's. And potential nuclear annihilation makes a fairly "overarching" theme, since -- had it happened -- it would have made every other argument on the globe moot. But you're right about the lack of an overarching theme in these lesser conflicts -- didn't seem like either of the great powers really cared about the behavior and philosophy of those they supported, as long as they kept their area "under control". Ne> I did think your exposition was very good, lots Ne> better than similar broodings I've had limping ill-formed through my Ne> thoughts since the mid 80's. However, I still dont find the Ne> argument convincing. Ned. Well, I didn't intend it as a definitive interp. Just a thought to get some conversations started; things were pretty dead here for a while. ... Give them an opposable thumb, and they think they're special... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Joseph Max 23 Sep 94 19:43:02 Subject: Re: book of coming forth UpdReq Thus said Joseph Max to Josh Norton concerning Re: book of coming forth: Hi Joseph! JM> "Chaosists" or "chaotes" are both correct and interchangable. There is JM> some debate over whether it is proper to call oneself a "chaos JM> magician" except at those times when one is actually perfoming a JM> working -- it's complicated and I'll spare you all the details, unless JM> someone wants to know more. JM> As far as I'm concerned, a "Chaos Magic Order" is a contradiction in JM> terms. The whole idea of chaos magic (IMNSHO) is that the practice of JM> magic is not only a dynamic, ever-changing phenomenon, but is also a JM> highly experimental, maleable and personal expression of art. Heh. I feel the same way about "Thelemic Magickal Order" and "Setian Magickal Order" -- both are oxymorons, for different reasons. But what's to distinguish a Chaosist from, say, a Discordian or a Thelemic anarchist? I don't see it as a really new phenomenon. JN> Reasonable enough, since the natural trend of any human organization JN> is towards structure, limitation, regulation, and definition; while JN> the natural trend of a magickal current is towards change. Sooner or JN> later the creative necessities of a current cease to be completely met JN> by its adherent organizations; it causes new groups to split off or JN> arise separately to meet those needs. The human conflicts involved are JN> just a reflection of this process. JM> Perhaps the readers here might be entertained by a bit of history: JM> The IOT (or as they have come to be known to their detractors, the JM> "Idi-OTs") have been plagued with in-fighting, splits and schisms JM> almost since their inception! One of the founding members, JM> , resigned from the Order a few years after it's creation, citing a JM> betrayal of it's original concept of a confedration of peers without a JM> structured hierarchy. This left "Pope" Pete Carroll to try his best to JM> [text sacrificed to the gods of bandwidth] JM> (whose hierarchy declaed him an "excommunicte" ). In fact, the Pact JM> is distingushed more by the quality of it's _excommunicates_ than by JM> it's active members! Proves my point perfectly. At the risk of waxing nostalgic, I wonder how many Chaosists are aware of the bate cabal group of the 1970's and early 80's? That group actually succeeded where the IOT later failed. No structure, no hierarchy, no authority, recognized all claims of initiation as valid within their sphere. It was basically a communications network between individual magicians "doing their wills". Lasted almost fifteen years before the currents moved people apart. Its central core is still around, in the form of the Black Moon Archives, even though its associates have gone their own ways for a while now. JN> Most of the time Pete's sloppy thinking annoys me, but he sure got JN> that right. What's the point of exploring if you only end up where JN> you've already been? JM> I know what you mean. The guy can be maddeningly laconic at times. JM> But he does come up with the occasional good quote... I was thinking more that he seems so eager to present an all-inclusive view that he tends to gloss over details that contradict his idea. You can't keep ALL the details in mind with this sort of thinking, but some of the contradictions seemed fairly obvious to me. (Of course, some other recent messages here are accusing me of the same thing. ) And then there were those "catastrophe" diagrams in _Liber Null & Psychonaut_, a couple of which proved exactly the opposite point he said they did... ... Caution: Contents under pressure. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Navitae 23 Sep 94 13:00:06 Subject: Re: liber al prophecy UpdReq Thus said Navitae to Josh Norton concerning Re: liber al prophecy: JN> So I would say that, in the interpretation taken here, the prophecy of JN> AL 3.46 was very well fulfilled. JN> Comments, anyone? Na> Just a couple. You noted that back in the 80's, a number of Na> people were commenting on the prophecy. I recall a few of them Na> stating that "cower before me" meant that the 80's would be Na> relatively peaceful (but, to be fair I don't recall many of them Na> going into much detail). Na> In regards your commentary: it looks to me like you've stuck the Na> US in too prominant a position. Something more objective would Na> be to count all the wars and lives lost during the 80's, and Na> compare the figures to other decades. Hmmm. As I said to someone else, the superpowers rivalry was fairly universal in its influence on the political levels. It's hard to find a pie they didn't have their fingers in. The effects of their influence, I would agree, aren't terribly consistent. As for statistics, I don't think I've seen any for the 80s in particular. I did once see a study of the 20th century versus earlier centuries that seemed to establish that -- despite two world wars -- during this century a smaller percentage of the population was directly affected by wars than in any earlier time. Na> This assumes of course that the prophecy has something to do with Na> wars. Motta interpreted it in terms of the court battle between Na> the Society OTO and Caliphate OTO. A world war for the first part of the prophecy, and a squabble between two tiny, obscure magickal organizations for the second part? Somehow that doesn't seem quite balanced to me. ... I'm a Polytheist -- I think my parrot is God. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 23 Sep 94 19:47:08 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq Thus said Julia Phillips to Josh Norton concerning Liber al prophecy: Hiya, Julia! JN> The first sentence of that verse reads: JN> "I am the warrior Lord of the Forties: the Eighties cower before JN> me, & are abased." JP> Yep, well be that as it may, anyone living in Britain JP> during the 1980s was under *no* illusion that "I am the JP> Warrior Lord.... the Eighties cower before me and are JP> abased", was a direct reference to Margaret Thatcher, and JP> proof of JP> Uncle Al's prescience. What? Maggie an incarnation of Horus???? The mind boggles! I always associated her with the Vulture-goddess. JP> Really interesting stuff.... what struck me as I read it (albeit very JP> quickly) is that it had a decidedly USA slant. Being one of those JP> arrogant Poms , I generally interpret Crowley within a JP> British context - probably quite erroneously, but there you JP> go. Soooooo.... does Liber AL have a global message, or is JP> it more localised? I dunno... just some thoughts which JP> occurred to me as I read your comments. Hmmm. Good thought. Ans: I dunno. I suspect that it's sphere of influence is primarily in the "white" cultures, i.e., Europe, North America, Aus-NZ, with little _direct_ effect elsewhere. The changes in China have proven to be largely superficial -- they've just traded Peasant Emperors for the preceding Sons of Heaven, and industrialized a little. Otherwise "all is ever as it was" there. India? Africa? Much the same. ... Fame is chiefly a matter of dying at the right moment. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Mars Gunn 23 Sep 94 19:51:10 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq Thus said Mars Gunn to Josh Norton concerning Liber al prophecy: MG> Maybe... MG> It does seem you have several good points but I also sense MG> a desire to really make Liber AL "fit." I'm not a MG> Thelemite, so I don't accept Liber AL to the extent you MG> probably do. If it matters, I'm not a Thelemite either. But I've always had fun playing with Liber AL. MG> Also, as an aside, Reagan seems to have broken the MG> "Curse of Tecumseh." Chief Tecumseh supposedly put a curse MG> on the presidency after a broken treaty (c.1840) Every MG> president elected since 1840 on a date ending in zero has MG> died in office. Then Ronnie got shot and didn't MG> (unfortunately) die thus breaking the curse! Maybe he did MG> the same with Liber AL ... I dunno. There are those who would say he was brain-dead even before he took office! ... I didn't write this, a very complex macro did! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 23 Sep 94 13:20:12 Subject: Liber al prophecy UpdReq Thus said Christeos Pir to Josh Norton concerning Liber al prophecy: JN> Once you lose that contextual connection, everyone starts interpreting JN> it in terms of events during their own lifetime, or in terms of events JN> they know only through the lies we call "history". The range of JN> possible meanings opens up beyond the point where meaningful selection JN> can take place. CP> First of all, it seems to me that particular verse is open to such a CP> broad range of interpretations already. More than needing to come CP> within someone's particular lifetime, I think the test of a correct CP> interpretation is that people say, "Hey! That makes sense!" I would agree with that, but thought it more likely with the narrowing of context I discussed. CP> Well, there's a difference between abased as "bowing down" and abased CP> as in "grovelling." CP> I think. Nope. ;-> ... Hey, Rocky! Watch me pull a shoggoth outta my hat! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Mars Gunn 23 Sep 94 16:34:14 Subject: Book of coming forth UpdReq Thus said Mars Gunn to Josh Norton concerning Book of coming forth: MG> You, Mr. Norton, have articulated my thoughts and feelings concerning MG> the Setians in an extremely intelligent, fair-minded way! MG> [....] MG> Thanks again, Josh for your brilliant breakdown ! Yer welcome, though I doubt that Mr. Aquino considers my remarks fair- minded! ... We are raccoon of Borg. Putting rocks on the trash cans is futile. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 24 Sep 94 01:10:02 Subject: organization UpdReq TM> There was no intention of angering you with my thoughts, but TM> from what I have seen of "mainstream" organizations, there does TM> appear to be a hell of a lot of blind devotees. It was not my TM> idea to raise your ire and I am sorry if I offended you, but TM> can you not see the ignorance in many organized followers? Yes, I can. The point is that you didn't say "Many organizations do such and such." You said, to paraphrase, that "ALL organizations do such and such." Don't make blanket statements that can't be backed up. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: To Meta Thereon 24 Sep 94 01:33:06 Subject: RTOD#2 UpdReq TM> No, I was not trying to be funny, I am just upset that so many TM> people take their rituals so seriously, and do not experiment TM> with their own ideas. TM> Just trying to open some minds is all I could finger paint with shit but it wouldn't make it art in my opinion. Similarily, I can use Gilligan's Island characters in my LBRP but that doesn't make it magic. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kalzen Entrop Area: Thelema To: Fir 24 Sep 94 20:05:00 Subject: Mezla UpdReq 93 Fir! Fi> What I meant to say is maybe the mystery issue is #9. #9 #9 #9 #9 #9 Sorry, I was listening to my Yoko's Plastic Band albums and I had to get that out of my system. 93 93/93 Kal- ... ChZ: `S s 4 TmAtIs MR! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: Thelema To: NAVITAE 21 Sep 94 14:57:00 Subject: RE: SECRET RITES OF THE O UpdReq -=> Quoting Navitae to Joseph Max <=- JM> ....... or what we Chaos Magicians call the Invocation of JM> the Augoeides - Na> "We" Chaos magicians? JM> Well, yes. Myself, other Chaos Magicians I've worked with, Austin JM> Spare, Kenneth Grant, Peter Carroll, Frater U:.D:., etc. - the JM> editorial "we". Na> I see. "We" as a very broad term then. Or perhaps as the Imperial "we". Or maybe even as "...and this little piggy went 'we we we' all the way home.... JM> Quite likely other poeple following other paths have used the term as JM> well. I picked it up first from Carroll's _Liber Null_ but have found JM> references elsewhere. Na> Perhaps from one of the many who were formulating Chaos magick Na> long before Carroll came on the scene. I've been informed Spare used the term. I would debate the idea that anyone could have been fomulating much of anything resembling Chaos Magick before Crowley threw Spare out of the A:.A:. for being too weird and Zos Kia Cultis came on the scene. JM> Were you questioning my identifying myself as a Chaote, my use of the JM> term Augoeides, or my use of the editorial "we"? Na> The term "We" should not precede the term "Chaos magician" as Na> it implies a consensus which does not exist, as well as negates Na> a fundamental concept of Chaos magick. Well, I know some Chaotes who think that no one should call themselves a Chaos Magician except as a temporary label applicable _only_ while actively performing a working. Probably a result of early toilet training... I see nothing wrong with using a broad-stroke defintion to distinguish a particular "tradition" of working that can find it's "roots" in Z:.K:.C:. as distinct from say, Thelemites. Now _there's_ a "group" with a particular lack of concensus! As far as negating the concept, I can see the point semantically, but it seems like nit-picking to the extreme to me. Go argue with the IOT about it, but hey, my Temple got thrown out of the IOT for being too independent. "Chaos Magick Order" -- now _there's_ a contradiction in terms! JM> Of course, Chaotes being what they are -- chaotic -- it's possible JM> that others use other terms or make up new ones. You can call it the JM> "H.G.A." or the "Augoeides" or "My invisible friend Fred" for that JM> matter, as long as _you_ know what you mean. Na> Since I don't believe in such a thing, I don't call it anything. What an odd attitude for a past or present Chaote to have. Have you been keeping up with your meta-belief exercises lately? _Any_ belief structure can be useful on certain occasions, so long as one does not find oneself locked into any _particular_ belief structure, which appearently you have. I have personally experienced certain psychic effects that match the pattern of the H.G.A. phenomenon, and framing the experiences in the more-or-less traditional structure of "Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel" proved to be a useful model for deriving further effects - but that's all there is to it. Whether I want to attribute any "higher" level of pragmatic reality to the experience is a totally moot point. "Nothing is true, and everything is permitted", right? Forgive me for saying so, but I can see no particular advantage to your attitude, since you are limiting your possible range of experience for no purpose *I* can see, other than coming off as trendy... JM> ... Oh, I get it. You were kidding. Na> Nope, I was annoyed. Jeez, Louise -- it was a randomly generated tagline! Who peed in _your_ Cherrios this morning...? Na> I can no longer refer to myself as a "Chaos Na> magician" because numerous references to "we Chaos magicians" has Na> made the term has become misleading (or at best, meaningless). And hence, more in keeping with the concept, by your logic! The less "concrete" meaning there is to the term, the better, right? Na> Well, I suppose that happens to anything that's been processed Na> and packaged for the public. Who you callin' PUBLIC, cowboy...? ... Describing magic with words is like cutting beef with a screwdriver... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718