From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 22 Aug 94 21:48:32 Subject: Web of Wyrd UpdReq Hello Kevin! 17 Aug 94 08:02, Kevin Bold wrote to Julia Phillips: KB> I got your _Web_ yesterday -- most impressive! Glad it arrived safely.... and you say the nicest things :) I really wish I could afford to have it printed professionally, so that the "creep" after folding it could be removed, and I could get a bit more ambitious with the scans. Maybe one day. KB> I'll be sending you some _AC_'s as soon as I can. If you'd like KB> to run any of the articles, let me know and I'll post them. Thanks... I'm looking forward to seeing AC, and appreciate your offer of the articles - I'm beginning to get like a scavanger where articles are concerned; none of my friends are safe from me :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Fir 22 Aug 94 21:54:52 Subject: Banishing UpdReq Hello Fir! 19 Aug 94 23:45, Fir wrote to Julia Phillips: F> Web of Wyrd came this week. Looks good! Glad it's there safely... I'm still collating, stapling and stuffing envelopes here :( Pagan Times needed to be sent out more urgently than the rest of the Webs, as it had time-critical advertising in it. Sigh. RD>> I'm a Wicca-dunce...how do witches without any C.M. RD>> inclination banish? just a 'close the circle' kinda thang? JP>> Depends on the group, really. The traditional Gardnerian or JP>> Alexandrian style would be to banish the quarters, and then JP>> usually, just cut a gateway in the circle. F> Some undraw the circle in the U.S. Not in England? Some may, but not that I've ever encountered. The first time I came across the concept of "uncasting" the circle was when a couple from the NROOGD tradition visited us (from San Francisco) back in 1983, and after saying farewell to the quarters, they "rolled up" the circle using the pentacle. Undrawing the circle isn't part of the "traditional" Gardnerian or Alexandrian ritual. JP>> Some people would banish the quarters using banishing JP>> elemental pentagrams, some using banishing earth pentagrams, JP>> and others just point in the general direction of the quarter JP>> :) F> Ever hear the wishy washy (IMO) 'go if you like, stay if you F> will' banishing? Not my favorite! Yup! Not my favourite either! When I was taught ritual, I was told that whatever I do, do it with purpose and energy, and to put at least as much, if not more, into the banishing than the invoking :) B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Julia Phillips Area: Thelema To: Fir 22 Aug 94 21:59:30 Subject: Amended Casaubon UpdReq Hello Fir! 19 Aug 94 23:48, Fir wrote to Julia Phillips: F> About how many pages is the amended Casaubon, give or take? Ermmmm... it's not here, but at work, but at a rough guess, I suppose about 50 or so. Maybe? I didn't count the pages :-} Some of the changes are really minor, and others seem to be a bit more important. A lot of the pages just have illustrations missing (not talismans or anything, just little line drawings). If you're interested, Paul said he would be happy to pass it on to folks at cost of copying/postage. He could probably also tell you much better than I could whether it's of any real use. B*B Julia 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 17 Aug 94 07:06:52 Subject: Re: More books... Rec'd UpdReq TI> If it is the letter I am thinking of, Germer said that he TI> should think long and hard about joining, and if they could come TI> to an agreement he would be started out with membership _and_ a TI> Lodge in Brazil. Hmmm, I've either not seen this one or only seen a fragment. I haven't run across anything in which Germer offered the membership to Motta. That's pretty strong evidense that he wasn't already a member. Could you quote it? I'm curious. TI> The bit about the Follower TI> might have just meant that Motta did Camille after Germer, and TI> Germer was confessing yet another infidelity to his wife on his TI> deathbed. (Unlikely, but amusing speculation.) Heh. That's a new one, but it has interesting possibilities... Na> Again, I don't believe Germer would have offered them to someone Na> who was not a member. That would have been a profound violation Na> of his vows and Germer was a fanatical Thelemite. TI> He gave them to others who were not members. Yorke, TI> Symonds, probably Lekve. He was pragmatic in knowing that these TI> people would preserve them (Yorke) or probably already had had TI> access to them (Symonds). I was aware that he sent material to Yorke, but not the rituals. TI> Also, what vows do you mean? Strictly TI> speaking, Germer himself was not even a Minerval, although he acted TI> as a IXth degree. I remember something about Germer saying A.C. had elevated him to the higher degrees without going through the lower first. As OHO, A.C. could do that and presumably on the grounds that Germer was already worthy of the honor. In essense, A.C. was treating himn as though he already had the necessary requisites. TI> Germer himself was more AA than OTO. Besides, TI> the IXth degree oath binds one to preserve the traditions, not to TI> hide them. Not being IXth myself I don't know the details of this. My understanding of the Order as a whole though, is that one does not distribute the rituals to the public (non-members). As OHO, Germer could do whatever he wanted of course but (again) as a devoted (re fanatical) Thelemite he wouldn't have done that casually. The idea of insuring that they were preserved via Yorke and other worthy people makes sense. Sending them (some at least and offering the rest) to Motta shows that he held Motta in high regard. It could be argued that Germer was treating Motta as a member, but I'm not going to press the point as it's fairly tenuous. TI> Well, then Germer was not as friendly and arrogant as myself.... TI> ;-) Seriously, many people have asked me about what to do with it. TI> The fact that Germer said to work it out for himself indicates to TI> me that he was not treating Motta as an initiate, at least not in a TI> helpful way. I don't agree on this point as I've found that higher initiates often leave it up to lower ones to work stuff out, despite the fact that they are initiates. They may feel they are being helpful, though this is a matter of their judgement regarding the ability of the initiates. They have to think the initiates are capable of working it out on their own and would benefit by doing so. At any rate, I still find this bit of correspondence odd to say the least. TI> This is a similar argument to that of David Cherubim TI> when he argues that Regardie was a member of OTO from a single TI> "Dear TITITW" postcard in the face of one of the most otherwise TI> documented occult careers. Well, I think there's more to it than that but I take your point. TI> I still think the other points are not very convincing either, at TI> least each on their own, and I agree that together they would TI> indicate that a hypothesis might be formed -- Yes, Germer was TI> treating him as someone worthy of consideration, and yes, Germer TI> offered him as such the opportunity to join and form a Lodge, and TI> yes, Motta asked about the IXth degree, but Germer told him to TI> work it out himself, did not actually send the rituals, did not TI> open a Lodge for him. It really comes down to Sasha's word, and TI> with no evidence that Germer did anything but consider and offer TI> with provisions, I still conclude from these four points that TI> Motta was considered, but missed by a few years. In regards to Germer offering Motta a membership, that's pretty damning evidense and indicates that you're right. Germer did send some rituals to Motta though and asked which ones he hadn't yet gotten. I don't know if that included the IXth but presumably not if Germer didn't think that Motta was yet a member. It's curious. Na> I'm glad we agree on something... TI> I think we agree on more than a little. It's the semantics and TI> intent vs. action that we are sticking on. And we are of course TI> concentrating on our differences here. There's a hell of a lot that TI> is clear and agreed upon, but that wouldn't be half as interesting TI> to discuss! ;-) True enough. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 16 Aug 94 23:39:08 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq CP> BTW, just ran across a Kali piece you wrote some time ago... quite CP> nice! Thanx. It was a long time ago but I think some of my stuff still holds up OK. I no longer agree with much of it though, but even at the time I was was mostly exploring ideas. CP> Well, I've got plenty of points of difference with Uncle Al, but I CP> certainly don't think I've got the gall to publish an edition of AL CP> with my own commentaries criticising AC's commentaries. If you CP> haven't read it, I recommend checking it out. Yeah, I've read it. I didn't pay much attention to the criticisms and some of Motta's other comments were very interesting. I think Motta had a lot of insight into Thelema and knew his stuff, and maybe such people should post some serious criticisms on those grounds. I'm with you though, I certainly wouldn't do it. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 17 Aug 94 10:15:40 Subject: Re: More books... Rec'd UpdReq Na> The Caliphate OTO has earned the right to run the organization Na> and distribute the materials by virtue of it's work. TI> So at least we can agree that it is the OTO. That's fine by me. Even if the courts had ruled against McMurtry, I'd still think the Caliphate OTO was the legit one on the basis of it's work, however I do think there are other branches which have a (lesser) degree of legitimacy such as Bertiaux's OTOA. I'm not sure how they should be qualified though. In the case of the OTOA it doesn't matter much as there's no conflict, but as for Metzger's OTO... Perhaps there can be a recognition (in some sense) of lost or divergent Lodges. As well, the A.'.A.'. and OTO are the flagships of Thelema, but there can be any number of other Thelemic groups. The difference would be, of course, that they cannot cannot claim to be "the" OTO or publish A.C.'s work without permission. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 22 Aug 94 02:10:12 Subject: Secret Rites of the O.T.O. Rec'd UpdReq TI> I'll make an offer. Talk to you netmail! I look forward to it. Hopefully, yours won't be the only offer. Wes thu hal, Grendel Grettisson mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 22 Aug 94 23:25:38 Subject: Archives & History UpdReq 93! N> I don't remember the name of the temple, but it met N> in the British Museum. KB> I believe it was Isis-Urania. I was referring to the London Golden Dawn branch. Keep in mind that I'm open to the possibility, though not yet convinced, that Budge was a GD member. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 22 Aug 94 23:28:34 Subject: Will the Real O.T.O. Please Stand Up? UpdReq 93! PH> They do, of course, reserve the right to suspend PH> the clerical powers of the parish priest running PH> the conservative tradition in question, but claim PH> no legal basis to move against him or his claims: a PH> spiritual matter, not a legal one (g). I am aware of that group; on occasion I've found a copy of their (?) paper, _Michael Fighting_, which someone has discarded but they missed the trash can. If the RC Church were to take these people to court for copyright infringement or libel, it would be a legal issue. Keep in mind that no one is disputing the conservative faction's faith or sincerity. And I can see why you'd bring them up, since I used Catholicism as an analogy. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 22 Aug 94 23:40:16 Subject: Secret Rites of the O.T.O. UpdReq 93! GG> I look forward to it. Hopefully, yours won't be the only offer. GG> Wes thu hal, GG> Grendel Grettisson GG> mimir@io.com It no longer is. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andy Bender Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 22 Aug 94 14:13:08 Subject: Ashtar? UpdReq Greets Paul - PH> Ashtar sounds like a variation of Ishtar, aka Astarte, etc. The Goddess PH> of Love/Passion/Fertility in the Near Eastern cycles (demonised as PH> Ashtaroth, the Succubus, in JC demonlogy). I thought at first that it probably was a variant of Ishtar/Astarte, but I believe that the entity in question is male, and is quite a bit darker than Astarte. However, I don't know a great deal about Astarte, so it may be that she has a dark side to her, albeit one that I've never heard of. I was thinking more along the lines of a John Dee type of spirit, perhaps? Thanks much for your help. In L.V.X. ___ X RM 1.3 01655 X Oh yeah? Well, what's the speed of DARK? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 23 Aug 94 23:12:34 Subject: Re: Secret Rites of the O.T.O. Rec'd UpdReq -=> Tony Iannotti sent a message to Grendel Grettisson on 20 Aug 94 09:59:07 <=- -=> Re: Re: Secret Rites of the O.T.O. <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. TI> I'll make an offer. Talk to you netmail! Trying to get them all "off the street," so to speak? Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... I suffered the deadly embrace of the Snake and of the Goat; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Ar Aakhu-t 24 Aug 94 20:47:02 Subject: Journals and books and lint and... UpdReq -=> Ar Aakhu-t sent a message to Christeos Pir on 20 Aug 94 16:42:01 <=- -=> Re: Journals and books and lint and... <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. AA> I'd say less than that, from what I know of his prices- as I AA> recall, binding your typical Dover paperback into cloth is in the AA> neighborhood of 25$. Sounds good. AA> Can I just give you his number? That'll do, thanks! Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Nor do thou deceive thyself. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 24 Aug 94 00:57:04 Subject: Secret Rites of the O.T.O. UpdReq > GG> I look forward to it. Hopefully, yours won't be the only offer. > It no longer is. Oookay. I still haven't actually received any offers in e-mail from anyone but... Wassail, Grendel Grettisson Internet:mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718