From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 12 Aug 94 14:53:16 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq Na> Er, well I've been in Canada for a few years now CP> Sorry to hear that! It's actually much better than living in the States was in most ways, but communications here really sucks (postal, telephone, cable TV etc). CP> So, IOW, you don't know offhand of any published versions of the M&M CP> material, correct? I'm working on it. CP> BTW, if you posted the Motta/Germer material relating to Motta's CP> being in the OTO, it never made it down here. I'd be interested in CP> seeing it. I didn't post material as such, just comments on the correspondence between Germer and Motta. Some of the correspondence was in the trial transcripts so it should be possible to get that at least if you're interested. CP> Also, do you know anything about Regardie being an initiate of the CP> IXo? Sir David claims, apparently solely on the basis of one postcard CP> from AC in which he greets IR with the "T.'.I.'.T.'.H.'.T.'.I.'.", CP> that IR must ergo have been a IXo -- this despite a complete lack of CP> any paperwork, according to Bro. Tony. I've heard the same story, don't know anything about it beyond that. Of the several of friends of mine who knew Regardie, none have said a word about it. It seems possible, but unlikely unless Regardie just didn't want to make any big deal out of it. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 12 Aug 94 15:19:02 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq KB> One minute he'd be explaining beautifully an obscure (at least for me) KB> passage, and then suddenly he'd start ripping on Kenneth Grant or KB> Israel Regardie. I reached the point where I didn't care if he had KB> the best claim -- I wanted him to lose just for being a jerk! CP> Rilly. Have you read "The Commentaries of AL"? Sometimes his insights CP> are valuable, sometimes they amount to an assinine swipe at one of CP> AC's commentaries. From what I know of it (which isn't much) the Motta camp inherited Germer's tendency to differentiate between Crowley the man, and Crowley the prophet. Like, they discourage the use of the I Ching (despite the fact that A.C. used it on a regular basis) because it's Old Aeon. It's an interesting perspective, but I figure A.C. knew more about this than anyone so criticisms of his Thelemic work doesn't make much sense to me. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Gnb 12 Aug 94 15:25:54 Subject: Re: Sepher Yetzirah UpdReq KB> and credits it to Joannes Stephanus Rittangelius, stating it was KB> originally in Hebrew and published (written?) in 1642. Gn> That's the one Westcott used as the basis for his English Gn> translation. The '32 paths' is older than the 17th century, though. Don't the number of paths vary considerably in the older Jewish literature? I don't know much about it, but from what I've read there doesn't seem to be much consistency. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Gnb 17 Aug 94 04:56:48 Subject: Sepher Yetzirah UpdReq 93! G> You might want to look at R. Aryeh Kaplan's G> translations (several in one volume) - probably the best and most G> complete translation and commentary in English. Thanks for the tip. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 12 Aug 94 18:17:56 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq KB> Your information is very interesting. If you were to share your KB> documentation with me, I'd be happy to reimburse you for postage & KB> copying costs. The court transcripts are digitized and undoubtedly floating around the nets somewhere. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 12 Aug 94 18:32:18 Subject: Re: More books... Rec'd UpdReq TI> How can you not share the court's view, when you do agree that the TI> success of the Caliphate OTO proves it? I was not saying that they TI> had any purview in it, just that they seem to be right...... I don't share the court's view regarding the legal inheritance of the OTO. I think it died and was resurrected (McMurtry's papers were not approved by Germer, the Agape Lodge was gone by the time Germer died, the lineage should have come from Germer since he was the OHO etc). The Caliphate OTO has earned the right to run the organization and distribute the materials by virtue of it's work. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 12 Aug 94 19:02:32 Subject: Re: More books... Rec'd UpdReq Na> 1. Germer offered a Charter for a Lodge to Motta (first three Na> degrees). Only a member of the OTO can run an OTO Lodge. TI> No evidence that he took it. I have heard, but cannot document, TI> that Motta chose the AA over the OTO, because the AA was free. There is evidense that he did not take it (his own admission), because he wasn't aware of the offer. I only point it out as evidense that he was a member because Germer wouldn't have offered a Lodge Charter to a non-member. It wouldn't make sense. Yes, Motta had far more affinity with the A.'.A.'. and only created the SOTO when he found out that it was necessary in order to publish the works (speculation, but strongly implied). Na> 2. Germer stated that he'd given Motta most of the rituals and Na> asked what he was missing. TI> He wanted Motta to have complete Thelemic archives, not TI> neccessarily to use them. Again, I don't believe Germer would have offered them to someone who was not a member. That would have been a profound violation of his vows and Germer was a fanatical Thelemite. Na> 3. Germer and Motta exchanged correspondence about the 9th, Na> indicating that Motta must have had it already. TI> Only indicates that he could talk about it. I'd be happy to talk TI> about it with you, but it doesn't prove that either of us has it. Not exactly. Motta was asking questions about what to do with it, Germer told him to work it out on his own. Na> 4. Sasha Germer stated that Karl Germer was grooming Motta to Na> take over the OTO in about ten years (this was just before he Na> died). Could a non-OTO member have run the order? TI> Sasha's perceptions have been shown to be pretty bizarre in TI> other areas, I don't think her word is good enough for me. True enough. If that was the only evidense I'd be damn sceptical too. It fits in with the rest though. TI> She wrote to Motta that he was to be the Follower. Which TI> lineage contains that postion? (It was capitalised) Motta thought it referred to the one to follow mentioned in the Book of the Law, then later decided it meant the OHO. Obviously he was bullshitting at that point. TI> Are you referring TI> here to a post-dead-Germer letter, or a letter from before. It was a letter sent right after Germer died, if memory serves. TI> (They tried to patch up their differences via corespondence, TI> at Germer's behest, at least to Motta.) And you suspect that Sasha was just buttering him up? Possibly. Na> My analogy is that the OTO functions as the vehicle for Thelema Na> to expand in the world, while the A.'.A.'. is the spirtual heart. TI> I can go for that...... I'm glad we agree on something... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Joseph Max Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 10 Aug 94 09:37:06 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Kevin Bold to Navitae <=- KB> Yes, and that was sad. I used to have Motta's version of _Book 4_. KB> One minute he'd be explaining beautifully an obscure (at least for me) KB> passage, and then suddenly he'd start ripping on Kenneth Grant or KB> Israel Regardie. I reached the point where I didn't care if he had KB> the best claim -- I wanted him to lose just for being a jerk! I used to own a hardcover copy of Motta's printing of _Equinox V_, and he did such a damn good job of commentary sometimes, but the same book was filled with page after page of invictive against every other OTO connected indivdual in the known universe... A jerk... yeah, that's it... ... Sometimes the Garbage Disposal God requires a sacrificial spoon. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Navitae 18 Aug 94 08:48:40 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Navitae to Tony Iannotti <=- Na> The Caliphate OTO has earned the right to run the organization Na> and distribute the materials by virtue of it's work. So at least we can agree that it is the OTO. That's fine by me. ~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 ... "We've no crime after dark." "SWAT team?" "Vampires." 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Navitae 18 Aug 94 09:16:00 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Navitae to Tony Iannotti <=- Na> There is evidense that he did not take it (his own admission), Na> because he wasn't aware of the offer. I only point it out as Na> evidense that he was a member because Germer wouldn't have Na> offered a Lodge Charter to a non-member. It wouldn't make sense. If it is the letter I am thinking of, Germer said that he should think long and hard about joining, and if they could come to an agreement he would be started out with membership _and_ a Lodge in Brazil. But if you are speaking of the letter that never got to him, and he wrote Sasha a couple of years later about, then I think it is firm evidence that he had missed his chance to get onboard. The reason he was silent for the last years of Germer's life was that he thought Germer was testing him. It's possible that Germer had forgotten about him. The bit about the Follower might have just meant that Motta did Camille after Germer, and Germer was confessing yet another infidelity to his wife on his deathbed. (Unlikely, but amusing speculation.) Na> Again, I don't believe Germer would have offered them to someone Na> who was not a member. That would have been a profound violation Na> of his vows and Germer was a fanatical Thelemite. He gave them to others who were not members. Yorke, Symonds, probably Lekve. He was pragmatic in knowing that these people would preserve them (Yorke) or probably already had had access to them (Symonds). Also, what vows do you mean? Strictly speaking, Germer himself was not even a Minerval, although he acted as a IXth degree. Germer himself was more AA than OTO. Besides, the IXth degree oath binds one to preserve the traditions, not to hide them. Na> 3. Germer and Motta exchanged correspondence about the 9th, Na> indicating that Motta must have had it already. TI> Only indicates that he could talk about it. I'd be happy to talk TI> about it with you, but it doesn't prove that either of us has it. Na> Na> Not exactly. Motta was asking questions about what to do with Na> it, Germer told him to work it out on his own. Well, then Germer was not as friendly and arrogant as myself.... ;-) Seriously, many people have asked me about what to do with it. The fact that Germer said to work it out for himself indicates to me that he was not treating Motta as an initiate, at least not in a helpful way. This is a similar argument to that of David Cherubim when he argues that Regardie was a member of OTO from a single "Dear TITITW" postcard in the face of one of the most otherwise documented occult careers. Na> 4. Sasha Germer stated that Karl Germer was grooming Motta to Na> take over the OTO in about ten years (this was just before he Na> died). Could a non-OTO member have run the order? TI> Sasha's perceptions have been shown to be pretty bizarre in TI> other areas, I don't think her word is good enough for me. Na> Na> True enough. If that was the only evidense I'd be damn sceptical Na> too. It fits in with the rest though. I still think the other points are not very convincing either, at least each on their own, and I agree that together they would indicate that a hypothesis might be formed -- Yes, Germer was treating him as someone worthy of consideration, and yes, Germer offered him as such the opportunity to join and form a Lodge, and yes, Motta asked about the IXth degree, but Germer told him to work it out himself, did not actually send the rituals, did not open a Lodge for him. It really comes down to Sasha's word, and with no evidence that Germer did anything but consider and offer with provisions, I still conclude from these four points that Motta was considered, but missed by a few years. Na> My analogy is that the OTO functions as the vehicle for Thelema Na> to expand in the world, while the A.'.A.'. is the spirtual heart. TI> I can go for that...... Na> Na> I'm glad we agree on something... I think we agree on more than a little. It's the semantics and intent vs. action that we are sticking on. And we are of course concentrating on our differences here. There's a hell of a lot that is clear and agreed upon, but that wouldn't be half as interesting to discuss! ;-) ~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 ... For a good prime, call 391581 * 2^216193 - 1 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Navitae 18 Aug 94 09:59:12 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Navitae to Kevin Bold <=- Na> The court transcripts are digitized and undoubtedly floating Na> around the nets somewhere. I used to have them online here. Let me check, and make sure. If no longer, I'll put'em back, but you can also get them on disk from Bill Heidrick. ~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 ... I have a firm grip on reality. Now I can strangle it. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718