From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 8 Aug 94 02:10:00 Subject: Journals and books and lint and... UpdReq 93- GG> > CP> John Crowley's _Aegypt_? Way qool stuff. GG> No, it is fiction but quite good. It is hard to fine but I can GG> show you my copy sometime. One of the basic premises is that I'd love to read it! Reminds me a little of Tim Powers' 'Anubis Gates'. 93/93 ,-----. . . / H \ -Ar Aakhu-t | H | bb125@scn.org | H | \ ===^=== / `._____,' 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 8 Aug 94 02:13:00 Subject: Findhorn UpdReq 93- TI> Yes, apparently remarkable success. I don't understand why TI> the academic and scentific community has not really commented TI> on their claims, they are so outrageous. I would have expected TI> some denunciation or proof -- it;s at least as exciting as TI> UFOs, astrology, and Nessie. (Well, maybe not as exciting as TI> Nessie.....) Maybe becaus ethet're too successful! I mean, I had college counselors who told me mainstream academic psycholgy was voodoo; how much easier to scoff at astrological personality theory. But hey, actual physical plant growth as proof- maybe that's just too dangerous to admit the existence of. I've given up on academic scholarship anyhow- just can't swallow that particular religion, er, excuse me, worldview. ,=====. -93/93 ===' _---_ . . ===<< () > -Ar Aakhu-t `---' /| bb125@scn.org `-' | 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Navitae 8 Aug 94 02:54:04 Subject: Archives & History UpdReq 93- NN> Oh, they already open their doors to OTO members (I've read of NN> New York Lodges allowing people to use Liber AL in the NN> initiations) but as far as some kind of cross-recognition of NN> the NN> degrees...that seems real unlikely to me. Again, they argue NN> that NN> the intent of the OTO and themselves are quite different. I would agree with them. In the present day, trying to say that such-and-such an O.T.O. degree equalled a Masonic degree would be as ridiculous as saying that such-and-such a masonic degree equalled an O.T.O. degree. The intent is different, the means are different. I do share the sentiment that nothing but good can come from mutual respect between the two orders. That's what I've been working on here, and so far so good, although navigating what is acceptable to them can be tricky- no need to rock the boat too much right away. (Sure, I belong to the cult of the Wild Beast 666... ;) 93/93 ,-----. . . / H \ -Ar Aakhu-t | H | bb125@scn.org | H | \ ===^=== / `._____,' 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Navitae 8 Aug 94 03:05:06 Subject: More books... UpdReq 93- NN> Yes, he was a member of the OTO. This is very clear from NN> correspondence with Germer. What was in contention was whether NN> or not he had the right to run the OTO, not his membership in NN> it. I've never heard this before. Do we have evidence of the date of his initiation, etc? As far as the correspondence, did Germer say he was O.T.O., or did Motta say it? I know that Germer thought Motta was at times as nuts as Crowley thought Germer sometimes was. Perhaps Tony can provide us with details here from his experience of the records. But it seem to me I've heard (from Bill Heidrick, maybe) that the extent of Motta's O.T.O. connection was that as Germer's A.A. student and successor, he felt he should run O.T.O. as well, but the lineage never officially passed to him. If any O.T.O. connection with Motta -had- existed, it certainly would have come out in the course of the trial, because Motta would have been the first to bring it up. Anyone know the details of the trial? NN> KB> Additionally, keep in mind that OTO and A:.A:. are two NN> separate NN> KB> entities; the former is rooted in Freemasonry/Martinism, NN> the latter a NN> KB> revamped Order of the Golden Dawn. The only thing they NN> have in common NN> KB> is Thelema. NN> NN> I don't believe they are meant to be seperate (in the full NN> sense NN> of the term), but that gets a bit complicated. One way to view NN> it: what's the body without the heart? I think this is a very crucial point; certainly one Crowley insisted upon: A.'.A.'. and O.T.O. have -no- formal connection, though they are in close alliance. Even if all the administrating officers of O.T.O. were A.'.A.'. members (I'm not saying one way or another here) that's not the same as having it explicitly run by A.'.A.'. authority. By the same token, if all the bankers in town are Freemasons, that's not the same as saying Freemasonry is in charge of the banks. Magically speaking, the consequences of publicly announcing that your Order is an A.'.A.'. outer college are pretty strong. For better or worse, it puts quite a spin on the situation. This is one major difference between O.T.O. and C.O.T. & T.O.T., I can feel the difference pretty strongly, aside from all the other differences. 93/93 /\ . . \./ \,/ -AR AAKHU-T X >< X /'\ /`\ bb125@scn.org \/ 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 4 Aug 94 20:29:20 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq Na> Yarker published them. Would Health Research have republished Na> something like that? CP> Yer asking me?! Er, well I've been in Canada for a few years now and therefore somewhat out of touch with the rest of the planet (they've got a trully frightening postal system here, and customs doesn't inspire much confidence either). 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Andrew Haigh 5 Aug 94 07:30:28 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq AH> You find as much magick in a rite as your are looking for. I AH> find that the symbolism inherent in the 3rd degree `Raising' AH> holds a great deal of magickal potential. There are so many AH> different ways that one can interpret this rite and so many AH> possible effects that can come from each interpretation. I AH> know that a great deal of current Masons do not think this way, AH> but it might be what it takes to revitalize the Lodge (avg. age AH> in BC 70 and climbing ) Infiltration? Sounds a bit like the Illuminati approach to organizational change. It just might work... AH> I like the idea of using a laptop as the HBL with open AH> windows containing each Holy Book slowly scrolling through the AH> text of each one like a tibetan prayer drum, all over a AH> colour-cycling background of the Mandelbrot set. This in AH> combination with replacing the bulbs in the three lights in the AH> Lodge with candles would make for a most impressive effect and AH> shed a unique tone over the entire proceedings. Neat (hmm, thee ritual has a ring ov familiarity about it). AH> As far as the claim that Masonry and the OTO's intent are AH> diffeent, some may think so, but I don't. What we have are two AH> Orders aligned along simlar paths, the ultimate destination of AH> each being the enlightenment of the person walking the path. Perhaps, but this could be said about very many religious organizations. I think the goals need to be quite a bit more specific. AH> The main differences being the symbolism of the myth of the AH> first three degrees, and the fact that the OTO initiates women AH> while Masonry is a strictly male fraternity (this will probably AH> change over time, but not for a while I think. Inertia can run AH> deep). It would be interesting to see the Masons get into sex magick. Well, on second thought...(you did say they're in the 70's?) That Aiwaz thing might be a catch as well. Organizationally, they may not be far apart but I suspect A.C.'s legacy may be a hard gap to bridge. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: Navitae 8 Aug 94 10:40:52 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq 93! CP> I understand that there's said to be no conflict between the various CP> A.'.A.'. bodies with proper lineage. Due to the secrecy of the AA, they probably don't know of each other ;) N> I wish this were true, but it's not. There is a great deal of N> contention though it seems to be less public than with the N> various OTO lineages. Hmm, I'll qualify that to say that the N> hostility is primarily from the Motta lineages. Yes, and that was sad. I used to have Motta's version of _Book 4_. One minute he'd be explaining beautifully an obscure (at least for me) passage, and then suddenly he'd start ripping on Kenneth Grant or Israel Regardie. I reached the point where I didn't care if he had the best claim -- I wanted him to lose just for being a jerk! Later, fortunately, I moved to California and found Baphomet Lodge, and found that it was indeed the Caliphate (appropriate name, as they are very active in Caliphornia) that had the best claim. 93--93/93... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718