From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 1 Aug 94 18:20:26 Subject: Re: Archives & History Rec'd UpdReq -=> Quoting Navitae to Tony Iannotti <=- Na> Sure. I'll try to get it up soon. Hmmm, I'll have to do a unix Na> convert thing on it, hopefully it won't choke. TI> TI> What system are you on now? Maybe we can just transfer it via Fido TI> and be done with it? If your sysop is willing, he can crash the file TI> to my board, or I can freq it if he puts it in a secure place. Sorry, I've been busy with finals and neglecting this. The system I'm on is through a university in regards the internet. I'm not sure about the Fido thing, I'm doing that through OASIS BBS and I can check into it. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Andrew Haigh 1 Aug 94 18:26:10 Subject: Re: Archives & History UpdReq AH> Not neccessarily, but there is magick in Masonry. Granted the AH> vast majority of Masons would disagree on this point, but over AH> the years my investigation of Masonry has shown that there is AH> a lot of magickal potential to be found in the rites and AH> symbology employed by them. Sure today's average Mason is about AH> as magickal as a brick, but that in no way detracts from the AH> magick inherent in their Order. Good point. The Masonic response to this (as I'm sure you've already read) is that the ceremonies (etc) are not done with magical intent (ie not trying to cause changes in the usual magical sense). I have to defer to their opinion in this as it's their organization (even though I think you may be right). Cretainly the Masonic legacy has spurred a huge amount of magical interest over the centuries. AH> And who knows what the future AH> holds? it could very well happen down the line that the Masons AH> will open their doors to OTO members, time changes everything, AH> one day they may even admit women. Oh, they already open their doors to OTO members (I've read of New York Lodges allowing people to use Liber AL in the initiations) but as far as some kind of cross-recognition of the degrees...that seems real unlikely to me. Again, they argue that the intent of the OTO and themselves are quite different. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Kevin Bold 1 Aug 94 18:31:10 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq J> It was lead by J> Marcelo Motta then. I checked them out and they seem to be MORE consistent J> with the original A:.A:. and OTO as established by Crowley. KB> Could be. While Motta had never been a member of the OTO, he was an KB> A:.A:. initiate under Karl Germer. Yes, he was a member of the OTO. This is very clear from correspondence with Germer. What was in contention was whether or not he had the right to run the OTO, not his membership in it. KB> Additionally, keep in mind that OTO and A:.A:. are two separate KB> entities; the former is rooted in Freemasonry/Martinism, the latter a KB> revamped Order of the Golden Dawn. The only thing they have in common KB> is Thelema. I don't believe they are meant to be seperate (in the full sense of the term), but that gets a bit complicated. One way to view it: what's the body without the heart? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 1 Aug 94 18:44:02 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq CP> I understand that there's said to be no conflict between the various CP> A.'.A.'. bodies with proper lineage. I wish this were true, but it's not. There is a great deal of contention though it seems to be less public than with the various OTO lineages. Hmm, I'll qualify that to say that the hostility is primarily from the Motta lineages. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 1 Aug 94 18:45:48 Subject: Re: More books... Rec'd UpdReq Na> I don't recommend this lineage at any rate because (although Na> David B. certianly knows his stuff) they are a rather hostile Na> branch of Thelema. TI> Only a few years ago they petitioned the Caliphate OTO for a set of TI> initiation rituals. (0-XI) TI> Seems Motta never gave them to them....... Motta re-wrote them after they were published by King. They do have some (though maybe not all) of the original ones. When Motta died, things got quite messy. TI> Needless to say, I declined to provide them. Guess that makes me TI> hostile too! Well, we all have our bad days ;) Hmm, their claim to the OTO is arguably not legit from a number of viewpoints, but I think the most important is Thelemic. "As brothers fight ye"...they fought, they lost. 'Nuff said. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Navitae Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 1 Aug 94 18:41:52 Subject: RE: Re: Archives & History Rec'd UpdReq TI> Yeah, I've dealt with Glen, he's pretty cool. Bought a Book of TI> Thoth from him a few of years ago. At least one hippie survived... Na> So, were the French reacting to the Pope's delcaration or was it Na> just a really strange coincidence? TI> One more angled saxaphone..... Ouch! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Jaq Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 5 Aug 94 16:18:34 Subject: Re: More books... Rec'd UpdReq ?*[/? TI> Only a few years ago they petitioned the Caliphate OTO for a set of initiat TI> rituals. (0-XI) TI> TI> Seems Motta never gave them to them....... TI> TI> Needless to say, I declined to provide them. Guess that makes me hostile to Does this mean that the texts in the "The Secret Rituals of the OTO"(edited bby Francis King) are bunk? I know that certian WORDS were removed becau, and it Iedited by Francis King. The book seems to be rare now but surely they could muster one up.*[A*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*[C*C*[C*[C*[C*[D*[D'*[B*[A*[D,*[B*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[D*[ and figure out the WORDS or their equivlents themselves. Well any way..... Justin Harvey **/ 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 5 Aug 94 00:13:02 Subject: the key of it all Rec'd UpdReq > I don't know about 2.5, but I just got 2.6ui from the UK. It'll be > freq'able from BNet soon. I've got this and a lot of other crypto stuff here on my BBS. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson Internet:mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 5 Aug 94 08:31:00 Subject: Cinti UpdReq Hi Josh! JN> Sure, give me a call when you're in town. Could you get my JN> phone number from Fir? No sooner said than done . 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: The Pict Area: Thelema To: Julia Phillips 5 Aug 94 21:24:00 Subject: Pict in Oz UpdReq Arrive Sydney Thursday 6 October in the evening - Depart Tuesday 18th back to Seattle ... got ticket today :) Family visit - and Staying with B & A part of the time. Have been contemplating the role of physical journeys in a magickal and spiritual context - serendipity! Seeing a path which contains the possibility of travel and finding the means to do so available with a little tweaking of reality. Sigh. Extraplanal entities make eccentric travel consultants. Looking forward to seeing you both. Letter follows. Love / 93 and hysterical giggles The Madly Corrupt Pict 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 6 Aug 94 01:04:00 Subject: Cinti UpdReq 93- JN> Why in god's name would you want to come HERE???? I'm helping a friend move out of town. (that a good enough reason? :) JN> Sure, give me a call when you're in town. Could you get my JN> phone number JN> from Fir? I don't want to post it on the net if I can avoid it. OK. It'll be right at the end of the month- probably trying to beat an 8/31 deadline. 93/93 ,-----. . . / H \ -Ar Aakhu-t | H | bb125@scn.org | H | \ ===^=== / `._____,' 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 6 Aug 94 01:15:00 Subject: Journals and books and lint and... UpdReq 93- CP> I have always used artist's blank books or the hardback CP> day-a-page desk CP> diaries, since about '74ev. I also have my notebooks going CP> back to CP> about '69 or '70. Miracle I haven't lost them, in all the CP> madness over CP> the years! But I've gotten to the point where I can type 1000% CP> faster CP> than I can write legibly. <-- important! I've always liked the idea of making as much of my materials myself as possible, out of a combination of magical reasons, personal enjoyment, and being broke for too many years. So at one point I decided to learn bookbinding, and now it's kinda hard to buy a journal... which means I've stuck myself with one more labor... (sigh) :) Good for you, keeping records so far back. I have most of my old records, though the oldest stuff makes for pretty rotten reading- adolescent angst is NOT a spectator sport! :) But the records when I first started studying magick are pretty amazing now, mainly when I was doing the right thing without knowing it. Beginners luck! CP> Interestingly, Josh was saying he does a lot of his scrying at CP> the CP> keyboard. Makes sense. I've done some of my most intense work at a table with journal and books in front of me. Occasionally at the keyboard too, come to think. CP> Yeah, but I've seen some beautiful books done by some people I CP> know CP> when setting down rituals for use. IOW, in a book which CP> they'll use on CP> the altar later. Oh, I love beautiful temple gear. You know, though, I hate to say it, but aside from work within the Order, the most significant work I've done was away from any of the pretty toys I've made. I guess that's to be expected... CP> read CP> John Crowley's _Aegypt_? Way qool stuff. No- fiction? NF? have you read Norman Mailer's 'Ancient Evenings'? Despite the author, I found it to be a way cool historical novel about an old gnarly Egyptian magician. Especially cool treatment of after-death states, with the various parts of the soul and such. I mentioned it here, and got no response... I guess Mailer's rep as a trash writer is too strong for most folks. He seems to have done his research for that one though (or hired someone else to do it :) Oh, and there's a telling of the Isis/Osiris/Horus/Set myth that's hilarious- a very raunchy tellling of the gods' relations. Typically Mailerian, there's WAY too much sex in the book, but oh well... ,=====. -93/93 ===' _---_ . . ===<< () > -Ar Aakhu-t `---' /| bb125@scn.org `-' | 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 4 Aug 94 17:06:06 Subject: the key of it all UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Jonathon Blake <=- JN> I can't recall anyone ever trying to send false-ID messages over JN> PODnet anyway, so it doesn't seem to be a real problem. I suppose if JN> someone actually became a victim of such a practice, it might be JN> worthwhile adding in a PGP signature until the villain lost interest. I have also seen a 16 byte PGP fingerprint on some messages. Most people waste more than that on a tagline. ... DEL them all; let DOS sort them out! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: All 5 Aug 94 16:53:08 Subject: Ra Ra Ra! UpdReq Worship of Re when he rises in the horizon until the occurence of his setting in life. Hail to you, O Re, at your rising, O Atum-Horakhty! Your beauty is worshipped in my eyes when the sunshine comes into being over my breast. You proceed at your pleasure in the Night-bark, your heart is joyful with a fair wind in the Day-bark, being happy at crossing the sky with the blessed ones. All your foes are overthrown, the Unwearying Stars aclaim you, the Imperishable Stars worship you when you set in the horizon of Manu, being happy at all times, and living and enduring as my lord. Hail to you, O Re when you rise and Atum when you set. How beautiful are your rising and your shining on the back of your mother Nut, you having appeared as King of the Gods. The Lower Sky has greeted you, Justice embraces you at all times. You traverse the sky happily, and the Lake of the Two Knives is in contentment. The rebel has fallen, his arms are bound, a knife has severed his spine, but Re will have a fair wind, for him. The southerners, northerners, westerners and easterners tow you because of the praise of you, O primeval god, whose images have come into being. The voice goes forth, and the earth is inundated with silence, for the Sole One came into existence in the sky before the plains and the mountains existed. The Herdsman, the Sole Lord, who made whatever exists, he has fashioned the tongue of the Ennead. O you who took what is in the waters, you issue thence on to the bank of the lake of Horus. I breathe the air which comes out of your nose, the north wind which comes forth from your mother. You glorify my spirit, you make the Osiris my soul divine. I worship you; be content, O Lord of the Gods, for you are exalted in your firmament, and your rays over my breast are like the day. - The Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead, transl. & ed. by R.O. Faulkner ... Long ages hast thou waited at the end of the city 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Navitae 7 Aug 94 12:24:44 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Navitae to Tony Iannotti <=- Na> Motta re-wrote them after they were published by King. They do Na> have some (though maybe not all) of the original ones. When Na> Motta died, things got quite messy. Yes, I knew about the rewrite. I am not sure if I have copies of them or not. Tell me about the other branches? I only knew about the David B. branch, the one in Washington, and Australia, all of whom I assumed were working together? Is it one of the others you know to have the copies of the originals? (strange phrase, copies of the originals, seems a bit redundant..... Na> Hmm, their claim to the OTO is arguably not legit from a number Na> of viewpoints, but I think the most important is Thelemic. "As Na> brothers fight ye"...they fought, they lost. 'Nuff said. I don't know about that. I don't always share consensual reality with U.S. Courts. I happen to agree with it in this case, however...... ;-) ~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 ... "Don't mince words, Navitae ... what do you *REALLY* think?" 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Jaq 7 Aug 94 12:29:42 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Jaq to Tony Iannotti <=- Ja> Does this mean that the texts in the "The Secret Rituals of the Ja> OTO"(edited by Francis King) are bunk? I know that certian WORDS were Ja> removed becau, and it Iedited by Francis King. The book seems to be Ja> rare now but surely they could muster one and figure out the WORDS Ja> or their equivlents themselves. Well any way..... They start out closely enough, but get progressively worse, at least so far as the ritual degrees go. In the top triad, there begin to be many omitted parts, and elisions, and it lacks a number of top triad and above documents. But I agree; it would be/was a good start. BTW, your message came in kind of broken up. I tried to reconstruct it a bit, but as you can see there are still a number of problems. If I misunderstood you, please let me know. ~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 ... By the work one knows the workman. -- La Fontaine 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Navitae 7 Aug 94 13:00:42 Subject: Re: More books... UpdReq -=> Quoting Navitae to Kevin Bold <=- Na> Yes, he was a member of the OTO. This is very clear from Na> correspondence with Germer. What was in contention was whether Na> or not he had the right to run the OTO, not his membership in it. I think you are mistaken. What in Motta's correspondance with Germer indicates that he was a member of OTO? I've certainly missed it. Na> I don't believe they are meant to be seperate (in the full sense Na> of the term), but that gets a bit complicated. One way to view Na> it: what's the body without the heart? What are the muscles without the heart might be more accurate. They are interelated, but not identical, although the heart is made of muscle. ~~~ PGPBLUE 2.0 ... "We've no crime after dark." "SWAT team?" "Vampires." 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718