From: Donald C. Ives Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 19 Aug 93 13:43:40 Subject: Re: LOL UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Donald C. Ives <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Hello Rose. RD> No thanks necessary, Don, glad I was able to help you out a bit. I RD> definitely know what you mean about answering questions. We all have RD> places where we fit; the big deal is finding the right 'place' and RD> pursuing it. I'm glad we had the opportunity to chat online. RD> Give yourself credit for asking questions and actually listening to RD> what people had to say. ;> Shameless plug time: credit also to the RD> other Thelemites we were all chatting with. Haven't yet come across a RD> more open and welcoming group of individuals personally. I've been RD> very impressed with the local members since first 'meeting' them RD> online, and more so with time. The other night in a scheduled Thelema RD> conference, an earnest Christian man wandered in. He wasn't nasty or RD> confrontational, but he *did* hold very firm views about divinity, RD> life, spirituality, etc., some of which were rather incongruous to the RD> way most of the other people in the conf. viewed the same things. No RD> one yelled at him or told him to go away or called him names. This RD> guy's attitude, of course, was a key--while definitely giving the RD> impression he thought we were all pretty strange, he was respectful, RD> and was treated with respect in turn. Nobody was 'converted' on either RD> side, but I think a bridge was crossed in that discussion between RD> human beings with strongly-held beliefs was able to take place without RD> anyone resorting to name-calling. All of which is a roundabout way of RD> saying something like if more people behaved like Thelemites the world RD> would be a better place! That is a cool story. I kind of got into trouble a time or two in Wicca for defending Christian's. It's not like half of them weren't Christian's once themselfs. Everybody should have the right to belief how they want. Why should I try to impose my beliefs on them if they don't want to hear about it. I've been involved with a number of religious beliefs Christianity included. I found there to be questions they couldn't answer to my satisfaction. The one common factor was there was a god in all of them, and to me there god was real. Wicca was my longest chossen religion to date. Anyway I've been looking a long time to get me where I am today, a Thelemite. Speaking of Thelemites. I haven't heard from that O.T.O. camp here. I have the address of the other camp here. Also I have heard there is a camp in Edmond which I consider to be part of Oklahoma City. Edmond is north of here about 30 min.. You said be patient, and I'm trying to do that. I would like to meet a fellow Thelemite, and talk where the whole world (so to speak) isn't watching. Yes, I have had alot of help from fellow Thelemites, they have helped a great deal. They all indeed are openminded, and willing to help. Later.... LOL ;) Love is the law, love under will. Don ... This tagline is just for Rose Dawn.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kevin Bold Area: Thelema To: V. H. 21 Aug 93 05:36:36 Subject: Do what thou wilt? UpdReq 93, VH> I have a question of interpretation about "Do what thou wilt". VH> Suppose someone you know and care about is involved VH> with someone who you are sure will do them a lot of VH> damage and is just using them. Do you have the VH> right to intervene in their relationship, in order VH> to preserve their will (despite their illusion that VH> they are doing their will by consorting with this VH> person)? If that person called for them, would you VH> have the right to hang up the phone and not tell VH> them that the person called? If that person came VH> by in accord with their plans to meet at a certain VH> time, would you have the right to turn that person VH> away and not tell your friend that the person VH> showed up? Please help, as I am very concerned VH> about this situation. Warn the party you are concerned about, and then let it go at that. Don't do anything unethical yourself. 93/93... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 20 Aug 93 07:33:00 Subject: Re: KIDS/RELIGION Rec'd UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Thank you for your intelligent and thoughtful reply. It's been a help to me in separating my own multi-layered reactions to this situation, which were the ones causing me to stress in the first place (not to say that I don't love and feel responsible for my child, but this particular issue has taken on possibly more importance than it otherwise would have, due to being clouded by my reactions to various factors). Your assessment seems pretty spot on! I'd been reacting with irritation when she mentioned anything about the church, or asked questions about Biblestuff, and her response was along the lines of "Why are you so mad? Don't you want me to go to church? What's so bad about it? Are you pissed at me?" etc. I think we're beginning to get back on track; last night she asked me why another kid at the church told her that Tarot cards were bad & instead of comin' out the bag I asked her what *she* thought (the kid digs cards, what can I say?). We ended up talking, as opposed to me muttering through clenched teeth and her asking why I was pissed off at her. I'm not a member of the "everything happens for the best" school, but I have to admit, it's been a challenge to my own stated position of allowing her to explore spiritual matters and make her own decisions! Just a little hypocritical I guess: when her explorations and decisions don't push my buttons was closer to the reality of the situation; since they never had previously, I never had to test it. On the subject of her father, all I can say is, it's probably better that they do their visiting in a church than a lot of other places I could think of (like my living room!!). I've always trusted my daughter's intelligence and maturity to win out in the end in other areas, and it's worked out so far. Since we've always been very close and she hasn't had an authoritarian upbringing I suppose this is her own form of "adolescent rebellion," but as you pointed out, it's a natural and necessary step toward her becoming an individual in her own right. Though of course I feel as if *I* know what's best for her--it's a Mom thang--deep down I don't want her "Star" to be merely a reflection of whatever light I may have. So I'm gonna back up, walk the walk, and quit chittering like an angry rodent! She's too smart and too strong-willed to be a "fundy" anything--she may end up getting tossed out the church door if she keeps asking the Minister questions! (11-year-old center of pestilence, oh my!) And I wouldn't mind too much if she became an IRS auditor--she might be able to get ME a break once in a while! Love is the law, love under will. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Todd Sahba 20 Aug 93 07:48:44 Subject: Re: KIDS/RELIGION UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Thanks for taking the time to reply, Todd. While I most definitely am concerned about both being responsible for my daughter and allowing her to make her own choices, and the tightrope walk that entails, I've realized that my own buttons have been pushed in this particular case, and think I'm assigning it more importance and making it more upsetting than it really need be. I think this is partly what's popularly called "adolescent rebellion," and since I haven't been an iron-gloved parent it's taking a different form than the traditional ones people think of. Although "rebellion" has certain connotations, I've been reminded that it's actually a vital step toward her separating herself from me and becoming her own person. I also think that by allowing her to dip her toes in to various spiritual systems, she's developed the quality of discrimination--she hardly fits the compliant, non-questioning prototype of a good li'l vangie-Christian-kid. She's also at the point where she wants to explore more deeply than simply attending a church once or twice, or reading a couple of books has provided. She actually *is* reading a Bible that the Minister gave her, and asking questions--of me and of the church people. Their feelings seem to part company on several major points . By trying not to interfere even while having reservations, I seem to have run into a very unattractive passive-aggressive parenting mode, i.e., not stamping my foot and saying "No! I forbid it!" but thinking she doesn't pick up on my tight jaws and irritated tone when she brings anything about the subject up is ridiculous, as I've been made painfully aware. I will let you know how things go, but I'm much easier in my mind with it now that I've looked as rationally as possible at the situation and realized how many of my own reactions are clouding the real issues. She's young, but she's also highly intelligent and mature, and I trust her judgment...so I'm going to go with the flow, be available to give my opinion when it's asked for, talk about the stuff in the Christian Bible, and let things unfold from here. I've always said "She's got a mind of her own and a mouth to go with it." Sounds like a budding Thelemite to me, whether she goes to a Christian church or not! It wouldn't be THE worst thing in the world, and it's shown me a few things about myself that I need to consider as well. Love is the law, love under will. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 20 Aug 93 07:53:18 Subject: Re: MULTIPLE TRUTHS UpdReq >> ignore. And having been declared a No-Good Shit on numerous occasions -- > Hey! They called me that too! > > Actually, they called me that and then they made me into the Editor > for the local pagan/magical newspaper! How's that for weird? No-Good Shits make the best editors, bar none, as do Insufferable Bitches. It's a title of honor! The Insufferable Bitch in me saltues the No-Good Shit in you. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 20 Aug 93 21:47:40 Subject: multiple truths Sent UpdReq -=> Grendel Grettisson sent a message to Josh Norton on 18 Aug 93 23:15:00 <=- -=> Re: multiple truths <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > And having been declared a No-Good Shit on numerous occasions -- GG> Hey! They called me that too! Must be something going around... a customer called a co-worker and me asses, jackasses, smartasses and assholes. Wonder where his head was, judging by his fixation?! Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... For I am the soft sinuous one entwined about thee, heart of gold! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718