From: Kayla Block Area: Thelema To: Frater Almost 29 Jul 93 23:25:52 Subject: Re: HYPNOSIS Rec'd UpdReq 93 frater almost, FA> LOL! This is getting good! ;) Wanna go on geraldo-do? }B-> FA> hey bro., i've been meaning to ask you or somebody---what does LOL mean anyway???? as for your friend, if this therapist has not helped her, why is she continuing to see him or her? although she has gained 50 lbs, that isn't neces any sort of indicator as to her prgress or lack of progress. (more importantly, does she feel that she is being helped by her therapist?) FA> (maybe I need to move out of Alabama to see the good?) FA> but I'm sure that there are folks making good use of FA> Hypnotherapy, etc. Mainly, my big point would be for FA> the client / patient to have a firm grasp of the FA> process before subjecting themself to hypnotherapy. Is FA> there anything wrong with that that you can see? If FA> not or if so, lemme know. We might be able to get some FA> insight on this dilemma. ;) Pax. 93 well, first i want to know what you mean when you saw "a firm grasp of the process"? does that mean being trained in clinical hypnotherapy themself? or does it mean being familiar with the techniques the particular hypnotherapist is going to use? etc.? some forms of therapy, (though i am not necess. talking about hypnosis here) work best when the client(s) has little to no insight about what is actually going on in the therapeutic setting. not all psychotherapy is insight-oriented. (for info on both this issue as well as insight into a brilliant clinical hypnotherapist---i would recommend any books by Milton Erikson or by Jay Haley. In fact, any books by either of these authors are marvelously entertaining as well as informative!) 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Richard Kaczynski Area: Thelema To: Grendel Grettisson 29 Jul 93 10:09:24 Subject: THE G.D. UpdReq >> GG> Money is ALL they seem to be interested in. >> That was why Mr. Crowley left The Golden Dawn. >> GG> Hardly. My impression was it was because they wouldn't accept him and >> GG> the GD largely self-destructed and reformed as new groups. Precisely. Crowley joined the G.D. while they were in the midst of a political struggle between their chief, Mathers (who was living in Paris), and Farr/Yeats, who ran the London lodge. After the London lodge refused to recognize Crowley's Adeptus Minor initiation by Mathers [they refused to initiate him themselves because of rumors alleging sexual misconduct], and after Crowley, on Mathers' behalf, failed in his attempt to seize the R.R. et A.C.'s headquarters at 36 Blythe Road, A.C. went to Mexico to climb mountains. The G.D. pretty much followed its own self- destructive course, and Crowley returned to London convinced that Mathers had lost his authority from the Secret Cheifs. [It would still be a few years before Crowley claimed this authority for himself.] 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: Thelema To: Todd Sahba 31 Jul 93 02:55:52 Subject: Camp Master Duties Rec'd UpdReq 93 todd, TS> 93 Kayla, KB>if you live in an area that doesn't have a camp, and you KB>are a member of the order, then maybe you should consider with regards to your question, i'd rather netmail you a reply, if possible. the address in your origen line looks like a POD's address though, and neither me or the sysop of my board can figure out how to gate mail from Fidonet to POD's directly. do you have a fidonet address? if not, then i'll either post you back here o, since i log on to baphonet occasionally, maybe i'll just post something privately to you there. but, in brief, to get a camp, write a letter to the grand secretary general. (get the address from a copy of the magical link). just ask for an application for a camp charter. fill in the app., mail it in, and wait to find out if you get chartered. (i'm sure you will). let me know about that fidonet address. 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 31 Jul 93 10:17:38 Subject: THE BRIDGE Rec'd UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 28 Jul 93 20:13:51, Christeos Pir wrote: MOG> [...] it has given me much inspiration for a newsletter MOG> I edit and co-publish called THE BRIDGE. CP> Waitaminit... you didn't tell me that. What kind of n/l is it? Oh, sorry, must have slipped my mind! :) :) THE BRIDGE is a FREE newsletter that we started back before this Beltaine past. The original concept was to provide a neutral means of communication for people of alternate beliefs--to bridge the gap between craft and craft. It is a newsletter, that although originally intended to be for the Pagan/Occult community in Southern Oregon has already grown to encompass Oregon as a whole (and actually, we have a fairly wide circulation on the East Coast, too!), that features a regular Calendar of Events, Thought-Provoking Articles, Current Issues, Poetry, Creative Writings, Helpful Hints, Deity of the Month, et cetera. It runs about 16 pages now and is published approximately 8 times annually, to correspond with the major Pagan holidays. So far, all the feedback we have gotten back on it has been fairly positive. Some have stated that we seem to be too "Fuzzy Bunny Wiccan," but hopefully that will change soon (one of the other co-editors, who was very dominantly Wiccan, has just resigned; so I shall have more control over the material placed in all further issues.). However, we have been told that it is one of the best and most "visually appealing" newsletters, to say the very least...:) :) Send me your address, I'm not sure if I have it or not, and I will send you our first two issues, and shall put you on our mailing list. Our next issue will be out the first part of September, which will be a double issue approximately 24 pages long. Oh, by the way, we are always looking for well-written articles to publish...hint, hint! :) :) Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 31 Jul 93 13:07:38 Subject: Re: Oto?Amorc Dues Rec'd UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 30 Jul 93 16:35:49, Christeos Pir wrote: MOG> My gosh! EGADS! Quite right Johnathon, we completely forgot the MOG> most expensive of them all--the infamous DIANETICS! How could we have MOG> been so careless! :) :) As you know, we should never forget our MOG> dear old L.Ron Hubbard when we compare other orders with the O.T.O. ;) CP> Hehe... maybe it should have been Elron who dropped the vial of CP> fulminate of Mercury... :) :) HA! Indeed, most right! :) :) Though wait a minute, that isn't very nice of us to say, is it? ;) I suppose if we keep this up we might have to retake our lessons on good manners! :) Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 1 Aug 93 05:25:44 Subject: Re: multiple truths UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Frater Almost on 27 Jul 93 17:47:04 <=- -=> Re: Re: multiple truths <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> (still in rant mode...) I think you're reading too much of your own prejudices into what Almost is telling us of this person. I didn't see enough information in his description to substatiate your attempting to read this person's feelings and motivations. Where you saw a kindred spirit struggling for freedom and independance, I saw a hard-headed juvenile that refused to do anything for themself, and wanted Daddy (or Mommy) -in this case, Almost- to do things for them. Furthermore, While you may or may not be right about the OTO (whatever "right" means... "right for you" I guess), I haven't personally seen evidence of it yet. The whole idea of a fraternal magickal order like the OTO is for like-minded people to _work together_. Those who can't or won't do that, are perfectly free to pursue their own Wills in another manner, whether it be as freelances or within the walls of some other Order. I don't deny that I've heard tales of frustration and resentment from those who have been told something along the lines of "_This_ is how it's gonna be, period," by people in higher administrative echelons of the Order, but _never_ in regard to spiritual matters. And _every_ organization has to have some areas of common agreement, (yes, that dreaded word: "Rules") and perhaps some standards for advancement (would you let just _anyone_ represent you, without knowing anything about them?), even if it's just knowing something about that person, or they aren't an organization, just a jellyfish with a name. Keep in mind that we're not talking about a Supernal Order like the A.'.A.'. (the Real one, I mean), but of a fraternal order, the spiritual descendants of the Templars. And we're not talking about judging the height or amount of someone's spiritual attainment, but of their fitness for taking on the greater responsibility that comes with administrative advancement in such a mundane (in the literal sense of "working in the world") organization. Those who automatically rebel against every form of structure, who cannot decypher for themselves the paradox of binding oneself in order to be free, who cannot work with and for others, who can do nothing for themselves but yet must not only have their hands held but their work done for them as well; those who -in short- are incapable of both cooperation and responsibility, are better off working by themselves until such time as they can free themselves from their _own_ prisons. Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... Let Thy secret fang pierce to the marrow of the little secret bone 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Captain Rock 31 Jul 93 10:47:16 Subject: Re: THE G.D. UpdReq -=> Captain Rock sent a message to Christeos Pir on 26 Jul 93 16:08:11 <=- -=> Re: Re: THE G.D. <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. CR> Is that so? Allow me to quote from Liber LXI, The History Lection: You're not taking that work as _literally_ true, are you? (Gotta consider the source, as they say.) Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... The foundations of the pyramid were hewn in the living rock 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 31 Jul 93 10:50:46 Subject: Re: HYPNOSIS UpdReq -=> Rose Dawn sent a message to Christeos Pir on 26 Jul 93 07:59:36 <=- -=> Re: Re: HYPNOSIS <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> Merde allors! Fais gaffe, tu m'fais mal--y'a que les minables, les RD> refoules et les pauvres cons qui partousent de stup! Sorry, sis, you lost me this time... and not a Larousse in the house! RD> Ou est-ce que *t'as* degotte c'trunc degueulasse? Sounds like same-o RD> same-o to me...would you recommend a glance-through as a warning to RD> the community (not the rabid fundie community, the occult community) RD> about the kind of stuff being thrown around, or should I just keep RD> right on not reading it? S'up to you. How's your stomache for lies, halftruths and innuendos, and just plain Bullsh*t? Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... then ye may know that ye have lost the golden thread, 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 31 Jul 93 11:11:18 Subject: Re: HYPNOSIS UpdReq -=> Rose Dawn sent a message to Christeos Pir on 26 Jul 93 08:52:40 <=- -=> Re: Re: HYPNOSIS <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > subject. Like using the word `satanic' (small "c") instead of > saying 'twisted,' 'sick,' or even 'evil.' (Obviously, I meant small "s," not small "c.") RD> OTOH, that's what the term "ritual" abuse was meant to originally RD> suggest--a series of complex and repetitive actions, words, and/or RD> symbology within the context of "regular" physical/sexual abuse, NOT RD> abuse within the context of occult practices. Actually, I think it was RD> "ritualistic"--a better term--before being co-opted by the "satanists RD> in the woodpile" crowd. On second thought, though, you're right; use RD> of the term, even with codifying explanation, would probably bring RD> pentagrams-in-the-living-room to mind for most people. Exactly. Not that I'm one of those who thinks we have to constantly be censoring ourselves lest someone else misunderstand, but I do think we need to think about the choices of wording we use, and the whole world- views they impart. Humpty-dumpty be dammned! (...for an egg?) RD> I'd like to see it--the guest rant I mean. Could be done. RD> I wonder some about the RD> reality of the "compulsion" concept. It's become something of a RD> buzz-word, I think. I know what you mean, and agree that when a technical term gets into popular usage, it tends to be misused. But let's not throw out the baby as well. Yes, compulsions can be dealt with in various manners. But they _are_ compulsions, and their power is not to be dismissed. I don't hold with patting the criminal on the head and saying "Poor baby," but I don't think we should ignore the effect of their psychoses on their behaviour. (Boy, do I make a great Taoist here, or what?) RD> Psychiatric treatment could be sought *before* the harm is done. Exactly. That is recognizing the existence of the complusion, and dealing with it in a constructive manner. RD> Guess I was--it's another one of those buzz-words. I have a real RD> problem with 'em by & large--the Bradshaw-esque stuff sets my teeth on RD> edge. Dysfunctional families--inner children--blech! Yeah. I've seen too many people whose "inner children" need a good spanking! RD> No, I accept that some people suffer from psychoses of various sorts, [...much read with interest] RD> Unfortunately, I think virtually all clinicians RD> agree that once the developing "self" or "ego" is fully formed, RD> sociopathy can't be treated. It can be intercepted, but not reversed. RD> Even a glance at the recidivism rates among the MOST successful RD> treatment programs makes it all too clear that so far, NO treatment RD> has been anywhere close to successful for category 3. I hadn't heard that. RD> I'll agree insofar as the thoughts being sick. Acting on them is RD> another matter--in my opinion. I know "evil" isn't included in the I'm not using "sick" as an excuse for anything, mind you. Barring the mentally impaired, or whatever the latest PC phrase for mentally retarded is nowadays, being subject to psychoses is no excuse for _acting_ on them, IMO. Nor for not acting to deal with them. But, given the nature of denial, it may be that refusing to acknowledge or to deal with them is _part_ of the sickness. [Which leads us full circle. :-( ] RD> won't speculate on what else he might theoretically become if he raped RD> your kid or my kid. One dead mofo. Period. And Ra-Hoor-Khuit have mercy on them, for surely I will have none. Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... I was smooth and hard as ivory; the horror gat no hold. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: Thelema To: Rose Dawn 31 Jul 93 11:27:02 Subject: Responsibility UpdReq RESPONSIBILITY Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. I've been doing some thinking about responsibility lately. Think about these real-life scenarios: A woman complains to the utility company that is replacing the cable in her neighborhood in order to increase the reliability of her service, because her kids are playing around the holes. A brother goes into a tirade because someone sent him a chain-letter, then ends with "Love is the law, love under will." A judge is acquitted of charges stemming from his having repeatedly mailed sexually graphic pictures and letters to an underage girl, actions he freely admitted having done, because a doctor (the kind that has no other employment than being paid handsomely to testify at trials) says the judge has some pseudoscientific "syndrome" that translates in English as being lovesick. A working single mother complains that her 5-year-old daughter "made her" stay up until 3 AM playing with the child. A man complains that his wife "makes him feel angry." Every time I see another parent that stays up all night fussing over a kid that cries at bedtime, instead of just letting them get tired and go to sleep; every time I see another parent that thinks that their child will be traumatized for life if he or she ever hears the word, "No," I see another future social problem. Every time I hear someone blaming someone else for how they feel or act -or catch myself doing it- I have to shake my head. There was a tarot supposedly received by Ouija board back in the '70s in California (surprise); part of one of the cards' meanings included the line, "The hands you are in are your own." While a lot of the "channelled" material now seems pretty Thelemic in retrospect, that phrase in particular stands out in regard to this subject. It seems to me that part of being a Thelemite, indeed of being an adult, is taking responsibility for oneself. Don't blame someone else for your inability to teach your children appropriate behavior. Take responsibility for your own emotions, your own actions and reactions. After all: "Thou hast no right but to do thy will." Love is the law, love under will. Fr. VITRIOL 0o OTO (c) 1992 Bahlasti Papers and C. Feldman - Christeos Pir ... the great city, the city of the violets and the roses. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Thelema To: Kayla Block 1 Aug 93 11:34:46 Subject: Re: HYPNOSIS Sent UpdReq LOL! is often used on Modem magick in chat. :) it means "Laughing Out Loud!" ;) My friend isn't seeing the therapist anymore. Also, seeing as how one facet of her problem was an eating disorder that she needed more help with, I'd say that gaining 50lbs. is a bad sign. She feels rotten and can't find another therapist. Simply put (and no offence) after having worked in psych. labs and clinics here at the local university, I'm very turned off by most therapys, etc. Just my opinion, tho. Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Todd Sahba Area: Thelema To: Frater Almost 1 Aug 93 09:14:00 Subject: Discrimination Sent UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law Frater Almost, FA> I know of a FA>few cases where libraries, temple furnishings, robes, etc. FA>were stolen by persons who were of sufficient degree to be FA>trusted unsupervised, etc. Simply put, some folks do join FA>O.T.O and just go crazy(er). The Current 93 is nothing to FA>be sneezed at at all. I will never cease to be amazed at the number of people who equate mental illness with violance, theft, etc. You have far more to worry about from people who have done what it takes to keep to the mainstream. You're right that the 93 current is a vital force, slowly but surely the prejudice against people who are labled mentally ill will also fall in its path. Until then let's work to bring that day a little closer. FA>Also, I pray thee to note that a person who is "of full FA>age, free, and of good report" may join the order. Coul we FA>not also assume that by "free" we could mean free of FA>personal demons and/or mental malidies? This is exactly why I feel this suggestion could be dangerous. Anyone can define 'free' and 'good report' in whatever way they want in order to achieve the results they want. When you discuss limiting people becouse of an illness that goes too far for me. Whatever the good intentions may be, this kind of discrimination means "If someone doesn't fit my standard of thinking or behavior it must be becouse they have some mental malidy and thus are not free" The law is for all, except those I think don't have the *right* will. FA>I'm not saying that everybody with a mental hang-up should FA>be turned away, just that Lodges, Oases, etcv. FA>etc. should probably do a better job of "meeting" folks to amke sure FA>that these folks are compitent to make their own descisions. Who decides who 'these folk' are? What standards will we use to determine that a person is making the *right* descisions? Who is incompetant to do their Will, and who decides who that is? I have nothing against greater security in protecting the Order if it is neccesary. I have nothing aginst judging people by their actions, if detrimental to the Order or other members. What is frightening is setting one group aside as being some how suspect *before* they have done anything wrong. What little we gain in security by doing so will not be worth the cost of such descrimination. This thread is about those labeled mentaly ill, what group will be next? Love is the law, love under will. Todd ___ X SLMR 2.1a X On the whole I'd rather be reading Proust 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Todd Sahba Area: Thelema To: Christeos Pir 1 Aug 93 14:24:02 Subject: Re: multiple truths Sent UpdReq 93 Christeos, CP> Those who automatically rebel against every form of structure, who CP> cannot decypher for themselves the paradox of binding oneself in order CP> to be free, who cannot work with and for others, who can do nothing for CP> themselves but yet must not only have their hands held but their work CP> done for them as well; those who -in short- are incapable of both CP> cooperation and responsibility, are better off working by themselves CP> until such time as they can free themselves from their _own_ prisons. Well said. 93/93 Todd ___ X SLMR 2.1a X On the whole I'd rather be reading Proust 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718