From: Sean Mccullough Area: Thelema To: Jonathon Blake 16 Sep 92 03:39:00 Subject: Thelema And Anarchism UpdReq Hi Jonathon!! JB> quoting SEAN MCCULLOUGH To: VITRIOL JB>___------------------------------------------------------------------------ JB>SM}> Some more thinking about the P_News situation.....P_News is a FIDOnet JB>SM}>Backbone Echo Conference, formed so as to be an "affinity group" for JB>SM}>Leftist individuals and ideas. JB> twould be interesting JB> but if it were any other net but fite-net Well......just because it's Fite-O-Net doesn't mean that you can't have fun there. It just means that the originator of P_News thinks he can get his conference more coverage that way than in any other. At least it isn't Internet!! JB>SM}>Needless to say, this doesn't go over very well with the Communists and JB>the JB>SM}>Socialists on that Echo (P_News) either; they keep quoting obsolete JB>SM}>European "anarchistic" sophists to "prove" that some form of authority is JB>a JB>SM}>necessity. JB> maybe i ought to find a bbs with it JB> this could be fun It seems that there has been VERY LITTLE said or written about Absolute Anarchism, whether in print or spoken. Even the so-called "anarchist" philosophes seem to think that just bringing the source of authority closer to the subjects of that authority is the desired goal, rather than the elimination of ALL AUTHORITY, which is the goal of the Absolute Anarchist. I hope you show up on P_News. Leave me a note there when you get it. JB> i just assumed that anybody who fully adopted the law of JB> thelema would automatically advocate anarchism as the JB> only moral, ethical form of government. It IS the only moral, ethical form of human interrelation. THERE IS NO LAW BEYOND "DO WHAT THOU WILT". But there are many, including quite a few on the P_News conference, who don't yet understand that the Law of Thelema is truly the basis of both Freedom and the Revolution which spawneth it. JB> is that assumption that much out of klink? Crowley was a lifelong conservative, and he *realized* what the Law of Thelema would do to society as he knew it. This is why I cite Aiwass' reaction to Crowley trying to resist the writing of Liber AL vel Legis. There are others, Crowley's successors in this mindset, who are still trying to reconcile Thelema with the existence of authority. But I am not among these (obviously!) JB> Xeper Xeper and Remanifest -- Sean * SLMR 2.1a * You can do anything thou Wilt at Aleister's Restaurant! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Merle Corey Area: Thelema To: Tau Ursa 15 Sep 92 22:21:28 Subject: Re: POINTS OF LIGHT Rec'd UpdReq -=> Quoting Tau Ursa to Merle Corey <=- TU> i DON'T BELIEVE YOU ACTUALLY SAID YOU LIKED CHOCOLATE. wELL REALLY... TU> Is that politicallty correct? Chocolate is ALWAYS correct. Merle ... "Could you continue your petty bickering? I find it most intriguing." 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Steve James Area: Thelema To: Liliani 16 Sep 92 13:53:00 Subject: Right & wrong 1/ UpdReq L> To: Steve James From: Liliani ___--------------------------------------------------------------------- L>I know what you mean. For instance, I am not into drugs. But I don't think L>that pot, or other substances for that matter, are evil. L>And I don't intend to avoid going to places where people I L>like use them. With the current heavy emphasis on My sentiments exactly. It seems that our government, rather than trying to bring the people together, wants to make some people untouchables. L> SJ> reletivistic since it leaves the determination of "endangered" up to L> SJ> interpretation. L> L>situational. However, I do not believe that the end L>necessarily justifies the means, since there is almost L>always a variety of means to any given end. I certainly agree! Morality demands a search for the least harmful means, and when a harmless means is not available, one must re-evaluate the end to be certain it is Will and not will. Blessed Be & 93, Steve J. ___ X EZ 1.33 X E -ex 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Steve James Area: Thelema To: Scott Gilliam 16 Sep 92 14:57:02 Subject: Right & Wrong UpdReq SG> To: Michael Lee From: Scott Gilliam ___--------------------------------------------------------------------- SG>they fall slaves to it. of; perhaps this is an example of the Yesod-Daath Zone SG>Grant speaks of? Comments?> Anyway, just wanted to thank I suspect that it is an imperfect manifestation of that. It seems that the idea of don't use the analytical area of the mind so that the rest can come through is trading one imperfect tool for another. Fusing the two 'segments' of mind is much more realistic! Blessed Be & 93, Steve J. ___ X EZ 1.33 X 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Krei Keire 15 Sep 92 09:15:06 Subject: Traffic UpdReq -=> Krei Keire sent a message to Vitriol on 09-14-92 22:13 <=- -=> Re: Traffic <=- Vi> all wrapped up in an ecological discussion, remember we're talking Vi> about Spirit, here. KK> Material (Intellect/Fear/Worry/Constraint) in the wrong place. No KK> kidding! -twist-twist-twist- Read again, amigo mio: I said Spirit, not ego. Spirit is in every way perfect., and needs no laundering. Vi> II:58 Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other. Vi> Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the Vi> slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or Vi> lifted up: all is ever as it was. KK> Although I agree with the point, I don't see how it applies to this You don't see how things not needing to be changed or improved applies to the discussion? ... And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 15 Sep 92 14:26:00 Subject: Traffic Rec'd UpdReq TI>I'd be happy to scan in whatever is neccessary and add it to a file as it >goes by here, if that would be useful. (I have both the >books and the scanner.) >And conversion is my specialty here in NYC (I know, convert >not....) so if you need anything along those lines, just >ask. 93! The only diagrams I'm having trouble with are plates C, D, and E, and figure XXXII. They're beyond the easy capacity of my graphics program, and I'm too clumsy to draw them longhand. Is there some way we could work out that I could get these from you to include with the other copies I'll be distributing? Sending a disk and money for return postage & mailer is no problem. If the cost isn't too high, I might even be able to pay for your services. * SLMR 2.1a * I think we're all bozos on this bus. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Scott Gilliam 15 Sep 92 13:27:04 Subject: Traffic UpdReq Hi, Scott! Welcome to the Thelema echo. Haven't seen you around here before. Just a suggestion -- it helps to quote from the message to which you are replying. Not the WHOLE message, just the parts pertinent to your comments, and just enough so that the other person can remember what she/he said. Conversation here is in slow-motion, and it can take up to a month for a reply to work its way back from the far corners of the net. Your memory may be good enough to handle the delay, but mine sure isn't! Most BBS's have a facility for quoting in their online editor, but I would recommend you get an offline reader (like SLMR or BlueWave) which is much better. They also free you from online-time limits. Check the file area of your BBS. SG>Josh, the understanding of the Creative Will of the Univers is nothing less >than the understanding of one's own true Will. Definiton >into a job, a work of art, even a concept or belief is a >....... >of Will and Life. The first step must be Know Thyself as >Always....(excuse me for the creative license). Anyway, >I don't mean to pontificate but you really have touched >upon some points that are imporant and meaniful to my >personal truth. I don't have much to disagree with in your comments -- I've said much the same thing here at one time or another. In regards to a system of initiation based on attaining contact with the "divine" Will: I was thinking of the possibility of a "system" that eliminates almost all of the trappings of magick and mysticism. Magickal "orders" are superfluous in any case; one can get along quite well without them, given the current widespread availability of all the essential information they provide. In examining my own contacts with the divine will, I've come to the tentative conclusion that only two things are really necessary to gain such contact: 1) A sincere and _whole-hearted_ urge to serve in the creative activities of the Great Work. (This constitutes an invocation in the most essential form. It needn't even be formalized into a ceremony.) 2) An equally whole-hearted determination, actively implemented, to take the response to the invocation on its own terms, and not distort it by forcing it through whatever our current mind-set happens to be. (This constitutes meditation on the response.) Given these, expressed over a sufficient length of time, I can almost guarantee that a person will attain some contact with the divine will. The rest of magick is just a distraction, something to keep our compulsively-active minds occupied while the process takes place. (I am tempted to add a third point -- recognition that the universe is unavoidably mysterious. This helps to avoid the dangers of fanaticism. But if one is practicing point 2) correctly, this comes as a matter of course.) * SLMR 2.1a * Cogito ergo dubito 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Scott Gilliam 16 Sep 92 10:33:06 Subject: Traffic UpdReq SG>Very well put Josh. Seeing things in pairs of opposites need not be the only >model with which to work from. I don't think that it was >Crowley's 'Libra-ness' that is to blame though. I was suggesting that his Libra personality was the reason why HE put so much emphasis on the point, instead of the many other aspects he might have emphasized. Considering his obvious influence on those who came after, I don't think my comment was out of line. >Mankind has >worked with god/devil, like/dislike concepts for quite a >while. I find that it is only a convention but a usefull >one...although if we pay attention we see that it is really >in trinities that we speak, at least that's what I see. >Some examples are; Sulpher Salt and Mercury; Mother, Maiden >Crone; Heavan, Earth and that which is between.....Wo- >ManKind!! And of course: Hadit...Nuit....Ra-Hoor-Khuit! My thought (which I'm codifying into a technique at the moment) was that any perceived duality is as much a matter of the way we have been taught to habitually, and therefore unconsciously, organize the sense-data we receive as it is something inherent in the world we are experiencing. Every situation expressing a duality also expresses significant aspects represented by many other numbers as well. We can train our minds out of this bad habit by looking at every duality and finding those other aspects, until the mind looks for them automatically. One could do similarly for triplicities, quadruplicities, etc. until the mind shows no special preference for one method of classification over others. Taking as an example that ubiquitous duality, male/female or man/woman, one could make a (not exhaustive) list of such aspects: 1) The man and woman are one in the act of sex -- at least physically, and in the best cases on all other planes as well. 2) The man and woman are threefold in that the creation of a third entity, the child, is the reason for gender to exist. 3) The man and woman are fourfold in that they are vehicles for the sperm and egg. (man = fire, woman = water, sperm = air, egg = earth) 4) Man and woman are each multifold beings in that their personalities reflect the patterns of the planets at their times of birth, and their interactions are multifold in that their relations as individuals are always a complex interweaving of the various planetary energies in their being. 5) They are even more multifold in that their bodies are made up of atoms, and their interactions are nothing more than an interchange of an uncountable number of photons between those atoms. 6) They are unified in that they can be viewed as simply being local variations in the density of the matter existing in all space. And so on. I'm sure you can think of others. * SLMR 2.1a * Jesus saves...Passes to Moses...He shoots... He Scores!! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Scott Gilliam 15 Sep 92 14:07:08 Subject: Re: Love under will UpdReq SG>Josh, wouldn't it be more reasonable to see the act of love as desiring and >grasping towards the forbidden and beautful rewards of >heavan...The milk of the stars. I would not limit myself to >.... >unification of two parts of myself which are nothing more >than conventional concepts for an ESSENTIAL (essence-- >tial|?) whole that we cannot describe as of yet. Again, PLEASE QUOTE. I don't know which of several messages that touched on "Love under Will" you are referring to. * SLMR 2.1a * I think we're all bozos on this bus. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 17 Sep 92 18:05:52 Subject: Traffic Sent UpdReq JN> Is there some way we could work out that I could get these from you to JN> include with the other copies I'll be distributing? Sending a disk and JN> money for return postage & mailer is no problem. If the cost isn't too JN> high, I might even be able to pay for your services. I'll scan them, and make them available for download. If you prefer to send the disks and return package, send'em to BaphoNet BBS Network, PO Box 614, Van Brunt Station, Brooklyn, NY 11215. Don't worry about the cost, it's crazy high here in NYC, and I'd rather donate it to a good cause than work at a discount. Thanks for offering, though, that's a first! 93! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718