From: Neuro Sonic Area: Thelema To: All 14 Sep 92 15:38:50 Subject: Magick HB (I-IV) UpdReq When is this Reprint going to be out? I've been waitin' n' waitin' n' it still ain't here.... I haven't gone over Book IV and MTP for years and I've beeen putting off getting the PB's in the hope and patience that I've been saving for the Reprint. Anyone got a line on what the hold up is? Anyone.... Bueller..... Bueller....... Bueller..... 93 93/93 N.S. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Krei Keire Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 12 Sep 92 11:23:06 Subject: Traffic UpdReq ..Gods created the form of Vitriol ..To Karl Lembke they cry out "Traffic" KL> Well, I mean a process that takes the raw soul and polishes KL> it, preparatory to returning to the source. Vi> ??? Sounds like digging a hole and cleaning the dirt before putting Vi> it back in the ground. KL> Why, I don't know. I guess I'll find out when I get there. Vi> There's nowhere to go; it's all Here! Vitriol: Your comment makes sense, but think of it this way: You're digging up the dirt, cleaning it of pollution, and returning it to the Earth. A most worthwhile task, and necessary!! (both to the Soul, and to Mama Earth, in this day and age.) Read: Pollution - Elements put into the soil that disturb the balance and harmony of the complete. Be it soda cans and tinfoil, or Cultural Baggage and Peer Pressure. ... Security, enlist Vitriol in the Eternity Brigade. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Krei Keire Area: Thelema To: Michael Lee 12 Sep 92 11:44:08 Subject: Right & wrong 1/ UpdReq ..Gods created the form of Michael Lee ..To Josh Norton they cry out "Right & wrong " ML> apear "bald" on all levels. We're dealing with beliefs, ML> faiths, etc. The issue is whether all statements made are ML> logically consistent with each other. For the most part, I ML> think I was logically consistent. Actually, you weren't. Josh made a set of statements, backed up by consistant reasoning. He showed us both the basis of the matter, and the logic of his conclusion. Your statements came through advocating some "Universal Morality" - some morality than is the same to all. You gave us no basis for your thoughts, and gave us no examples of it. The only thing we had was your statement. ML> insight which I didn't have. One of the "tricks" in this ML> sort of situation is to make "bald" statements. Not so ML> much because I believe them, but to have others show the ML> holes in them. The problem with this technique (as I've ML> come to learn) is that entirely to many people take it the ML> wrong way. Like I'm prostylitizing (sp?). None of us took it the wrong way - we just didn't see what you were trying to say. (see above) So we question your logic. ML> deteriorated over the past 5-8 posts. Although not blatant ML> flames, there has been an increase in "power" games. A ML> subtle attempt to belittle over obscure issues. It's the ML> "expert" syndrome. "Obviously you aren't quite as ML> smart/ggod/knowledgable as I am. Therfore your arguments ML> on all issues are inferior." I know this is an extreme, Like we've said so many times before: Show us. I didn't see such a syndrome. I did see a little bit of attitude thrown at the fact that you kept saying things without giving any basis for the thought, nor any logical conclusion to it. That's about it. ML> said (and I'm paraphrasing) that most actions can be ML> predicted in advance. I also said that I'd leave magic out of it for ML> the moment. Josh replied to this by bringing up Quantum ML> Mechanics and the book _In Search of Schroedinger's Cat_. ML> Seeming to refute my statement. Well, in writing that .. .. .. ML> the last refuge of a scoundrel. When we're dealing with .. .. .. ML> it that people who read these books are all of a sudden ML> experts in QM? I believe, and maybe I'm wrong, but the ML> _only_ thing Josh was trying to do was out expert me. To ML> show me how smart and knowledgable he was, and how ignorant ML> and ill-prepared I was. Get off the darn throne. Get over it. Unless I remember incorrectly, Josh made a statement concerning our inability to observe without interfering with the original act. In this, he made reference to QM. How is this "out-expert"ing? Do you feel out-experted because someone made reply to your statements, and bothered to give examples and references? [Come, sit down on this nice couch..] Do you feel bothered when people site references to their work? Do you get scared when people have logical material to go against your thoughts? Do you have bad dreams after discussions? Did your parents ever do these things to you? As a child, did you...... [ Okay, here I'm joking. But I'm trying to make a point. ] We don't consider that "experting", we consider that good research. NOTE: I never said I don't so the same. In fact, most of my posts are based on my thoughts on matters, as opposed to solid research. But I don't get all upset when people call me on my 'facts'. ... Michael Lee: Heaven is out of space, please take a number. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 13 Sep 92 22:01:12 Subject: Traffic UpdReq Hail Vitriol. The essence of Will, the Will to make the Great Work Play is the uniting of the macrocosm with microcosm as you wrote. I would like to add a few other ways of desribing this infinite dance of Love. That is that the unification of the genetically inherited body with the spirit of creative will maifests what to me is my view, the realization of heaven on n earth, the pulling down of the fruits of heavan that the flesh may engage in the ecstasy that pulls it closer with eternity. to be a god/dess in this world willing to create and destroy to throw god from the throne of judgement and rulership and dare to place oneself there as an act, a conseration of Will. Enjoy in plenty and may you always thirst for more More MORE!!!!! 93 John A:.A:. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: L'Amour Dujour 13 Sep 92 22:07:44 Subject: Love under/above Will UpdReq I really like your concept of Love as Unity, at least that's what I Intuit from your words. I believe that it is important to embrace and face conflict wherever it may manifest because like Vitriol has stated, One's Will may be in oconflict to anothers although seemingly opposite and restrictive(to paraphrase). But argument, conflict, courage towards change excites the process of learning, the process of yearning to enjoy greater freedom and dedication towards unity. . I believe that if we acknowledge and honestly challenge those differences within and about us, we learn to grow in a way that embraces community. The importance of community is so undervalued in Thelemic circles that I think at this time it must be addressed and I thank you for opening the forum in which I may stand up on my soapbox and say...Love is All, the Word of the law is Thelema but Love is the Law.....etc. I think if we can address challenges unmasked, without politics all Wills will begin to rotate around a central sun. Harmony will grow and conflict will cease to be a nedd, at least on this level. Thanks Guys, DO IT TO IT! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 13 Sep 92 22:17:18 Subject: Right & Wrong UpdReq Hip hip hurray! Great message, in my mind....YOU ARE RIGHT. Ugh did I do it again. Honestly I feel that your message says something quite important, true growth and evolution must start from within and within the centre of all things concepts such as right or wrong have no place as an absolute law or creed, Do What Thous Wilt seems to be a formulae to be used to establish and divine one's own right from one's own wrong..Love is the Law gives me the ability to change my mind and switch the judgments or even to create new lables. If anything, I have learned this much so far....There is no such thing as absolute failure, only where one perceiveth it to be. This is a microcosmic example of right and wrong concepts. Every failure or misunderstanding, inactions and so-called misactions are chances to grow, who is to say what feeds one's soul.....The main idea is to seed, succeed and change in a way that exhilerates and enhances creative growth..... SUCH ARE MY WORDS.... Ahbe Adonai 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 13 Sep 92 22:25:40 Subject: Re: Love under will UpdReq Josh, wouldn't it be more reasonable to see the act of love as desiring and grasping towards the forbidden and beautful rewards of heavan...The milk of the stars. I would not limit myself to seeing love as an act of inviting only one part of the process.....Androgeny is a key to great wisdom I think that one must see themselves as the angel emanating from kether as well as the aspirant seeking nurturance and understanding in this sometimes meaningless(seemingly so) existence called life on earth. I see every act as the unification of two parts of myself which are nothing more than conventional concepts for an ESSENTIAL (essence--tial|?) whole that we cannot describe as of yet. Some more words to chew on...... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 13 Sep 92 22:31:30 Subject: Traffic UpdReq Josh, the understanding of the Creative Will of the Univers is nothing less than the understanding of one's own true Will. Definiton into a job, a work of art, even a concept or belief is a human one and to impress this unto the outside universe is to create dogma. By invoking various elementals and other goodies into our circle we learn to evoke the process of change and exploration within ourselves. By taking everything that we can think of in the universe and understand our role in it's creation we learn to become more of a Whole and thus more at one with the Whole of Consciousness....I:E: the Creative Will of Evolution. Don't forget that everthing is at once individual as well as collectivly connected as One thing. When you said that you imagine an order which is focused at learning universal will(to paraphrase) I thought you were descring half a dozen orders I know of, in fact practically every magickal traditon ever created has always sought to understand more of Will and Life. The first step must be Know Thyself as Always....(excuse me for the creative license). Anyway, I don't mean to pontificate but you really have touched upon some points that are imporant and meaniful to my personal truth. Do What Thout Wilt, and Love in Plenty! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 13 Sep 92 22:38:38 Subject: Traffic UpdReq Very well put Josh. Seeing things in pairs of opposites need not be the only model with which to work from. I don't think that it was Crowley's 'Libra-ness' that is to blame though. Mankind has worked with god/devil, like/dislike concepts for quite a while. I find that it is only a convention but a usefull one...although if we pay attention we see that it is really in trinities that we speak, at least that's what I see. Some examples are; Sulpher Salt and Mercury; Mother, Maiden Crone; Heavan, Earth and that which is between.....Wo-ManKind!! And of course: Hadit...Nuit....Ra-Hoor-Khuit! As Brother's Fight.... With Love 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 13 Sep 92 22:43:48 Subject: Re: work, will...wha? UpdReq Vitriol, could you draw up some favorite methods. sayings of yours and how they may relate to the Thelema World view, I am really interested in Zen and other philosphies which can aid to the wholeness of our experience. Interestingly enough many times I have delved into other philosphies when confused, such as Tantrick Yoga...and you know; I always came out learning more about thelema and ceremonial magick, about my-Self and my-Magick! 93 dude! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: Michael Lee 13 Sep 92 22:49:48 Subject: Right & Wrong UpdReq I really like you comment that(to paraphrase), ' Morals are not a creation but a bastarisation of the Mind'. A reminder that mind is something fine and beautiful, so many times I see New Agers crying out, Don't analyze ! Shut out the mind! It is the haphazardly imprinted unconcious of which they speak and they fall slaves to it. Anyway, just wanted to thank you for the reminder that we are divine and that each thought is a seed of the infinite to be tested by the trials of experience. Love Is the Law.....Ecstasy for Al! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: Liliani 13 Sep 92 22:55:48 Subject: Love under Will UpdReq Intersting how your Xtian, pro-life friend is a Male. Some females may see bringing a child into the world, unwanted or unplanned for as the taking of not one but two lives! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Scott Gilliam Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 13 Sep 92 22:58:26 Subject: The Great Work UpdReq Correction, the Universe is Not a Simulation But a STIMULATION! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Nachash 14 Sep 92 00:00:00 Subject: Dagger UpdReq 93, Nachash! N | Finally found my misplaced disk with _Hecates Fountain_ on it. N | Somehow it slid under the 'puter itself. It's "in the mail" after a N | long delay! Great! Much obliged, and I'll forward the formatted version when it's done, though it doesn't look like Xywrite is an option for either my Mac or PC. Word or WordPerfect is probably your best bet. Ditto the V&V. N | Also, I am interested in the iron phurbu dagger from Snow Lion. Could N | you post the address? Snow Lion Publications PO Box 6483 Ithaca, NY 14851 800-950-0313 607-273-8508 (FAX) They have 5" & 9" iron phurbas, at $12 & $30, respectively (shipping is $3 or $5.) They've also got a remarkable little book on Chod from a French Dharma press, called _Cutting_Through_Ego-Clinging (#CUTHEG, $17.95) which delves into the demonology of the Chod rite; much more detailed than Evans-Wentz. BTW, Pacific Spirit has another phurba from the same source as that gri-gug, of regular tri-bladed, demon-headed design: about "11 and weighing about a pound, of bronze with 24k gold highlights, topped with a gold representation of Hiyagriva over the three demonic faces. The three-edged blade emerges from the mouth of the makara, which also trails entwined serpents tails. Spooky thing (one of my white-light buddies wouldn't even touch it!) Incredibly atavistic piece of work. I'll let you know how it does, once I've tuned it.... Hey, I'll be calling Snow Lion soon for some of the small phurbas (boundary markers, natch); if you'ld like I can include your wants as well. Let me know. 93 93/93 ___ X JABBER v1.2 X There is no law beyond. Do what thou wilt. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Nachash 14 Sep 92 21:58:02 Subject: Achad Books UpdReq 93, Nachash! N | Az> Those new reprints of Achad's QBL & Anatomy &c are being done by N | Az> somebody called Kessinger Press, and distributed through New Leaf. N | puzzled. So, to make a long story short, how N | about a address where I can order these? Thanks. The local Border's Books took about 2 weeks to order them, referencing their online Books-In-Print, and dealing with New Leaf. Kessinger also sells direct: Kessinger Publishing PO Box 160 Kila, MT 59920 406-756-0167 Their catalog (Sept.1, 1992) also lists _Egyptian_Revival_, but I've heard that they have an annoying tendency to announce books well ahead of actually having them available (case in point is their first and only volume of Agrippa, also some rare Dee material, also some of Gerald Massey's work, also.....) QBL & Anatomy really are available now, and are large format, perfect-bound and of good print quality, except for the photographic plates, which are about as good as the ones in Yogi Pub's books, ie, marginal; the line drawings are fine. Both of these are $17.95, and are done on acid-free paper. The perfect bindings don't look particularly robust, but the margins are generous, so a bit of lock-stitching ought to keep things together for a long time. 93 93/93 ___ X JABBER v1.2 X There is no law beyond. Do what thou wilt. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Liliani Area: Thelema To: Steve James 14 Sep 92 08:47:48 Subject: Right & wrong 1/ UpdReq SJ> Fortunatly, so far, my Will has not demanded any major risk from the SJ> cops, but I suppose it just might some day. I know what you mean. For instance, I am not into drugs. But I don't think that pot, or other substances for that matter, are evil. And I don't intend to avoid going to places where people I like use them. With the current heavy emphasis on victimless crimes and guilt by association, I could find myself on the wrong side of the law. Yet I can not lead my life in a way that protects me from this, because I would have to give up friends and associations that are good and positive. SJ> For example "Thou shalt not kill" is IMPOSSABLE SJ> to follow! Your immune SJ> system kills all the time, and if you shut it SJ> off, you kill yourself. SJ> "Do not kill unless endangered" comes closer to reasonable, but is SJ> reletivistic since it leaves the determination of "endangered" up to SJ> interpretation. Precisely. But then I do beleive that morality must be situational. However, I do not believe that the end necessarily justifies the means, since there is almost always a variety of means to any given end. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Liliani Area: Thelema To: Pat Crumhorn 14 Sep 92 19:29:28 Subject: Re: Love under Will UpdReq PC> No, but quite in keeping with the expressed policy of PC> the ruling elites of the white, western world. PC> If not, consider that those "other" people who you think PC> the planet would be better off without might very well feel PC> the same way about you. PC> I suggest you go back and REREAD, leaving your preconceived notions behind, WHAT I SAID. I said nothing about destruction of OTHER PEOPLE. In fact, I specifically spoke of US being destroyed and stated that I assumed I would not be exempt from any such destruction. I have read a great deal about the subject, and from a number of sides of the issue. The fact is that there are too many human beings on the Earth. Note I did not say too many colored people. I did not say too many people in Africa. I did not say too many people in India, or China. I said too many human beings on this one planet. What can we do about this? Well we could use our minds, and our wills and our technology to lower the population. Or we can ignore the problem until the Earth smacks us around and depopulates us with AIDS, other plagues, and natural disasters. Or we can have a few more nice bloody wars. I prefer the first option. I am not against AIDS research or supplying medicine to peoples who are less technologically advanced that we are. I never said anything to imply that I was. I am a "technogreen" that strange breed of environmentalist who actually beleives that we can save the environment and the world through using the best of our technology rather than by denying technology. A big part of the population boom around the world in this century came from the widespread applications of modern medicine and agriculture without corresponding widespread use of birthcontrol. I do not need to read works by anti environmentalists and extrememist on the other side to know 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 14 Sep 92 11:47:08 Subject: Traffic UpdReq VI>Seems to me it's well-nigh impossible for me to tell if I see duality >because it exists, or because that's how I've been trained to see. That's easy -- just train yourself to look at things in one or more non-dual ways, and then try to decide which is more "real". Bet you wouldn't be able to decide! I certainly can't. That says to me that they're ALL arbitrary. (Though I'm admittedly partial to quadruplicities. ) VI>Did I mention my experiences with what I term my `glimpse across the >abyss'? for about a week or two, my thought processes pretty much >were along the same lines as those in parts of the Book of Lies, as >far as contradictions; or of some of the Ch'an and Zen masters >related. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, transcendance! Sounds like fun. * SLMR 2.1a * How do I get OFF this planet?? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 14 Sep 92 11:49:10 Subject: Re: karma UpdReq VI>Nemutta. Wasn't any big deal - just curious about your response. I'm sure you'll have another chance to rant about it before the year's out. Looking forward to it. * SLMR 2.1a * If it's Dual, it's dumb. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 14 Sep 92 11:54:12 Subject: Right & wrong UpdReq VI>JN> It IS a hard process for me. The only exception is bureaucratese, VI>Have you seen the Randomized Buzz-Phrase Projector at work? HaHaHa! Sure have, and it's great! I fed in a chapter from the Social Security manual, and the output sounded exactly the same. A friend of mine in the DHHS policy office once said that bureaucratese was the art of saying "No" in the most long-winded and confusing way possible. VI>JN> Ah! You liked that Fleetwood Mac album too, eh? VI>Everything up until Buckingham and Nicks joined and they went totally >top-40. I thought the first two albums (the blues stuff) the best. >Christine McVie was good solo, too, back when she was Christine >Perfect. There's a great album called the Anthology of British Blues. That's about my feeling on the matter. I've got an old album called "Fleetwood Mac in Chicago" -- a double-record set of them playing with all the Chicago Blues greats. Super stuff! * SLMR 2.1a * Help stamp out Gerald Schueler. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Neuro Sonic 15 Sep 92 09:16:00 Subject: Magick HB (I-IV) UpdReq In a missive penned Sep 14, 92ev, Neuro Sonic wrote to All from 1:109/601: >When is this Reprint going to be out? Parts 1-III should be out this fall. Technical typesetting difficulties at the moment, but I think it will be well worth it. It's not a reprint, but a new edition. The reprints are available now of just Parts III (MTP) and IV as the Equinox of the Gods. (The Law) >I haven't gone over Book IV and MTP for years and I've beeen putting off >getting the PB's in the hope and patience that I've been saving for the >Reprint. One reprint, the Castle, is hardback, and only $10. I don't know of any current hardback reprint of parts I-II. Nor will there probably be one of just them, though I think they stand on their own. (They should, they were alone for a few decades!) >Anyone got a line on what the hold up is? >Anyone.... Bueller..... Bueller....... Bueller..... >93 93/93 >N.S. >--- Maximus/2 2.01wb > * Origin: ABySS BBS (1:109/601) >SEEN-BY: 93/93 102/943 109/6 114 120 155 536 600 601 120/418 125/51 >135/324 >SEEN-BY: 159/700 202/311 266/72 271/207 278/666 308/60 382/7 1000/1 2000/1 >SEEN-BY: 2405/666 2604/407 9000/3 9001/0 9008/0 9030/424 9040/0 9200/0 >SEEN-BY: 9400/0 10 9510/0 9600/0 9605/0 9607/0 9608/0 9620/0 9630/0 > 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718