From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 8 Aug 92 13:19:02 Subject: Re: Tree of Life UpdReq >them to other boards that they deem fit. I'm also checking to see if >BaphoNet has/needs copies. If they have them, they didn't get them from me. But I wouldn't mind if you sent them. * SLMR 2.1a * We're all bozos on this bus. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 9 Aug 92 11:15:08 Subject: Enochian Temples UpdReq VI>Some initial thoughts while reading Enochian Tmeples, Aeonic >Perspective, Set/Horus, etc... VI>Much of what you ascribe to the character of Horus more properly >belongs to Osiris. Much of what you ascribe to Set, I see as part of >Heru-Ra-Ha. Aquarius, despite its nature, is not a true dual sign. It > [quotes excised] >.... >words and signs." As He matures, he will learn to take his place in >the Company of the Gods (Paut Neteru). One thing that you should understand is that my interpretations of INRI/IRNI are not intended in any way to be consistent with Thelemic symbolism. I am also certain that those who participated in the work on the "inner" side had no concerns of that sort. Despite the rantings in "Aeonic Perspective", it expresses an entirely different current. We were interested, rather, in exposing a pattern of thought and behavior that has appeared consistently in human affairs in EVERY "Aeon" for which we have records. The story of Gilgamesh -- the oldest known epic -- follows the IRNI formula, as do many science-fiction novels and nearly all modern "formula" fiction. And at almost any point in between, you can find a mythology and/or a cultural pattern that conforms to the formula. The Christian mythos was deliberately constructed to conform to the formula, rather than being the formula's origin. And, as I'm sure you've noticed, Christian dogmas have very little connection to the plot of the myth in any case. The very pervasiveness of the pattern shows it to be something that has deep roots in the human psyche. My personal belief is that it arises from the socio-sexual and reproductive behaviors "hardwired" into our nervous systems long before the race became sapient; its pervasiveness is accounted for by the fact that all human cultures are an adaptation and elaboration of those reproductive demands. Now, having such deep roots, the formula has a tremendous amount of magickal power. And that power is not going to be diminished because of a change in "Aeons". It will simply change its superficial expression to adapt to local conditions, and then change local conditions to conform to itself. "Aeonic" philosophies and myths operate at a different (and in some ways more abstract) level than the patterns I have tried to describe in the IRNI formula. In a sense they codify the slow changes in the "climate" or environment within which the IRNI formula acts. Each Aeon is more compatible with one letter of the formula than the rest, so that that letter's aspect of the pattern tends to become dominant on the conscious and societal levels of human activity. The previous Aeon being Watery, the "N" or "Death" aspect of the formula dominated. The current Aeon being Airy, the last "I"s aspect is coming to dominate. Since the astrological sign of the current Aeon is the same as the attribute of the "I", the effect will be even more prominent than usual. As for the attributes of the Gods used in the formula, in every case I tried to use the attributes as they were presented in the earliest records I could find documented. Horus and Set in those records have a much more "earthy" and animal nature than they do in later times. In fact, reading those myths I was struck by the similarities in behavior between the gods, and the basic primate behaviors described by Robert Ardry (?) in his books "The Naked Ape", etc., again connecting with the socio-sexual roots of IRNI. Osiris is a relative latecomer to Egytian mythology, and really has no connection with the gods as used in the formula, even though his mythos does conform to it. The aspects of Horus used in Thelema seem to be from a later era, and are different enough that one might well consider the Horus of IRNI and the Horus of Thelema to be different gods. Egyptian religion was so marvelously chaotic, and Horus was so popular a god, that at one time or another practically every set of attributes possible to a male god were applied to him. Picking out one set of those attributes and saying "This is what Horus is" seems to me to be akin to the fundy practice of picking and chosing among Bible verses and saying "This is Christianity". (Yes, I've done exactly that in some messages here, but only to cause trouble. OK, so I'm a hypocrite.) It is perfectly appropriate to use attributes for Horus that fit Thelema, _but_only_in_a_Thelemic_context_, which is not the case in my presentation of IRNI. I thought I had made it clear somewhere in the papers that the Gods/Goddesses I was using were the early Egyptian quadruplicity who were the Children of Seb and Nut, and not their later elaborations. But perhaps I wasn't clear enough. As for understanding the formula, the best way to go about it is to consider the Fixed astrological signs (with their rulers and exalted planets) as the primary operating structures, and the rest of the symbolism, including the god attributes, as being subordinate to the astrological powers. All the connections made in the papers are through the astrological attributes. Whew! Enough of that for now. Some miscellaneous comments: ___------- I've got another paper that contains some Tables of Correspondence for INRI/IRNI that would make things clearer, being a listing of how it relates to various ancient and modern mythologies. But I haven't yet managed to convert them to ASCII text in such a way that the columns stay aligned, so I didn't send them to you with the other stuff. There's another paper (on which I currently have a case of writer's block) which deals heavily with the symbolism of the Fixed signs as they apply to the current astrological era, particularly with Aquarius and Uranus. Again, it's non-Thelemic but rather comprehensive. I'll send along a copy if I ever get it finished -- or if I give up on finishing it! ___-------- Thoth and Nepthys are semi-interchangable in the IRNI formula. Nepthys accentuates the attributes of the sign Aquarius itself, while Thoth accentuates the character of the sign as the House of Exaltation of Mercury and the house ruled by Uranus, both of which connect with Thoth. ___------- I hate to sound nit-picking without an ulterior motive, but the astrological character of Uranus is NOT "force and fire". Rather, it is "energy and vibration", usually in a context of information transmittal. Force, the power to do work, definitely is related to Mars within the context of astrology. Muscular effort, water & steam power, combustion and explosives, any chemical source of power, heat, or motion, are all Martial. I once did astrological charts for a large number of nuclear bomb tests, space shots, introductions of machines, volcanic eruptions, onset of wars, etc. and in every case it was Mars that was prominent in the chart, not Uranus. Uranus, on the other hand, tends to be prominent in the charts for scientific discoveries (and their discoverers), computers and electronic inventions, telecommunications systems, and other areas that deal with energy or vibration as the basis for transmitting information. It also connects with "sudden change", but ONLY in a context of "paradigm shifts", that is, where there is a sudden change in viewpoint rather than a change in the material world. Again, it is "energy as information" that is the key, not "energy as force". I can't see a strong connection between Horus as presented in Thelemic works and Uranus as I know him. * SLMR 2.1a * This tagline is false. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Azoth 9 Aug 92 23:08:12 Subject: Re: Frater Achad UpdReq AZ>Outstanding! I've already posted requests to my regular sources for >Achad's trilogy, but it's hard to tell when that'll bear fruit... As I write this (Sunday 8/09) I've only got about 20 pages left to do on _Revival_. (The BBS has been down for the last day and a half, so I didn't have anything more immediate to work on.) Re-reading it as I typed, I've been amazed at how much of what he says has become integral to various quasi-Thelemic and post-Thelemic systems in use today. And I'm also amazed at how much nonsense it contains! It seems pretty clear that he must have dashed the thing off in a few days, and never went back to clear out the garbage. In fact, it looks as if it was typeset directly from his handwritten notes, without benefit of an editor! Compared to _Anatomy_, its really a jumble. But interesting, nonetheless. * SLMR 2.1a * Steal only from the best. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 9 Aug 92 23:16:14 Subject: Enochian Temples UpdReq >force being represented. Thus, one formula to replace your Isis, >Horus, Set, Thoth (how did He get in here?) might be Hadit, Babalon, >Horus, Nuit. I agree that your version might be better from a strictly Thelemic standpoint, but I have a problem using Hadit to represent the Earthy element. He doesn't seem to have the necessary Earthy attributes, such as stability, absorption of impulses, accumulation of karmic vectors, etc. And Babalon-as-Water versus Horus-as-Solar Fire loses one of the essential aspects of the two central letters of the formula, which is Conflict, and the dynamic balancing of conflict. * SLMR 2.1a * Antelope Freeway -- 5 Mi. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: L'Amour Dujour 10 Aug 92 17:59:06 Subject: The subject is Bear Brai UpdReq LD>You know Josh, if you didn't know so much about everything, maybe we >could debate with you.. >[Backhanded compliment with regards to your sulk about people not giving >you feedback on your writings....] *Evil chuckle* The trick to sounding learned is to use the Magickal Virtue of Silence, and never, ever, get stuck in a conversation on a subject of which you are totally ignorant. That way people only see your erudite side, and never notice what an asshole you are the rest of the time! And if you do get stuck in such a conversation, admit your ignorance FAST, and don't try to baffle 'em with bull. As Saint Harry Callahan said: "A man's gotta know his limitations." As for the writings -- I do get feedback, on almost every aspect EXCEPT Achadian stuff. I figure I get five letters per thousand readers, which is about 2.5 times better than average. The problem is, even a genius (which I'm not, by a long shot) can't work forever in a vacuum. Eventually the mind exhausts the possibilities it can come up with on its own. The person either gets stuck in endless repetition of old stuff (like some professors and professional magick "teachers" I've met) or has to give up and go on to something else, despite knowing that the area hasn't been mined out. To go any further, one needs to have other persons whose ideas are close enough to your own to make conversation meaningful, and different enough to make it productive. * SLMR 2.1a * I think we're all bozos on this bus. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Karl Lembke 10 Aug 92 15:31:08 Subject: Tex 2/ UpdReq KL>Doesn't that depend on the text editor SLMR invokes? Oops, guess I forgot that feature . My copy has an editor (SLME.EXE) built in, and you can't invoke my Windows word-processor from a DOS program. * SLMR 2.1a * Five tons of wax! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Q.A.A. Area: Thelema To: Phil Pope 11 Aug 92 00:21:06 Subject: Liber 777 UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. It is possible to download Copies of the Equinox's on many Thelemic oriented BBS's. If you get the time, Tony's Board BaphoNet has most of them, along with all other sorts of Thelemic/CM goodies. Check it out, i believe the number is hanging around the Tag Lines of a few of these messages. _Frater Q.A.A._ 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Crat Area: Thelema To: Karl Lembke 7 Aug 92 08:07:00 Subject: Adoration UpdReq KL> X SLMR 1.0 X Never sweat petty things or pet sweaty things... Speak for yourself. I prefer to pet until they sweat. ___ X OLX 2.1 TD X Sex is a matter of lighting - Noel Coward 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Crat Area: Thelema To: Steven Craig 7 Aug 92 08:07:06 Subject: Achad's Tree UpdReq SC> Achad's tree, from what little I know of it, has completely different path SC>attributions from the GD scheme. I know it runs kind of ... SC>and 12th paths (Jupiter and Saturn). I'll post the SC>complete attributions the next time I'm on (I'm not at SC>home at the moment) if someone doesn't beat me to it. SC> BTW, I got the info on the Achad tree from a big zipfile SC>of stuff by Josh Norton which is up on Cat House... lots SC>of interesting Enochian stuff in there as well. Thanks much. I downloaded the Josh Norton files and will read them ASAP. ___ X OLX 2.1 TD X Sex is a matter of lighting - Noel Coward 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 10 Aug 92 00:03:00 Subject: Seattle Oto UpdReq > According to the latest Link, the action is all in the Sea-Tac area. > Sorry. Oh, and what action it is!! Not! Between charters getting revoked and interesting money practises, the OTO is not doing well around here in most people's opinions. -= Grendel =- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Ehubi Area: Thelema To: Jonathon Blake 10 Aug 92 07:47:50 Subject: Re: AND YET MORE ATTITUDE UpdReq 93! Re the whole question about "I practice Wicca" vs. "I am a wiccan" -- a writer friend of mine, when asked "are you a writer", makes an obsessive point of replying "I write". A lot of people want to "be" a writer; that is, to have the label "writer" stuck to their foreheads and drink lots of espresso while declaiming obnoxious opinions to awed fans. Far fewer people want to *write*; that is, sit down at a desk somewhere and type/scribble for many hours a day. It is this distinction my friend is after. In the same spirit, I prefer "I practice Thelema" to "I am a Thelemite" in describing my own religious beliefs. Just a thought... 93, Ehubi 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vere Chappell Area: Thelema To: Frater Ehubi 10 Aug 92 14:26:32 Subject: Re: AND YET MORE ATTITUDE UpdReq "Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong" I don't mind being called a Thelemite, or calling myself a Thelemite, not to have a label but to describe my beliefs in the same way that a Christian doesn't say "I practice Christianity" - that begins to sound like a faith healer or something. People will know what you mean without having to get into Semantic Gymnastics. Interestingly, most people ask, "what do you do?" to find out about your job, and the answer is a state of being usually ("I am a Computer Programmer" vs. "I practice Computer Programming"). Just some musings... 93 93/93 Vere 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Ehubi Area: Thelema To: Vere Chappell 10 Aug 92 21:52:36 Subject: Re: AND YET MORE ATTITUDE UpdReq 93 Vere, Oh, I have no objection to the "I am an Xer/ist/ite" vs. "I practice X" thing. General Semantics would tend to prefer the latter, and I am a bit of a General Semanticist at heart -- or at least, I try to practice General Semantics :). And the "I am a Thelemite" form admittedly has more rhetorical punch, and I myself use it more often. Still, my friend's view does stir up some interesting thoughts... 93, Ehubi 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Thelema To: Gerald Del Campo 12 Aug 92 02:46:42 Subject: Warrior Attitude Sent UpdReq I am now studying a mixture of Marshall arts with a few friends of mine. I have a close "street" style which is kinda neat because I take advantage of the walls in the Dojo and the floor, etc. The entire concept of having to go to war has now dawned upon me and I am seeing horrible injustices to be commited. I have designed a secret method of extrapolating 100% accurate prophecies from the oth Tarot Deck and we will need to be able to fight in the future....... To quote the Athens, GA band, R.E.M. : "It's the End of the world as we know it and I feel fine." Meanwhile, some people just go through the motions. I am ready to kill or to be killed. If the cause be just and Holy, I shall take up the arms which I can and defend my Freedom with every last ounce of strength I can.Abrahadabra....... Strike low and strike hard and to Hell with them, Master! From Gold I forge steel and from steel I forge swords....... It's coming and it isn't pretty. Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Oz Tech Area: Thelema To: Navitae 5 Aug 92 12:40:26 Subject: RE: OTO UpdReq Is this the Navitae formerly of Maine? If so, my best wishes to you... Oz, formerly of Massachusetts 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: Thelema To: All 11 Aug 92 23:08:40 Subject: herbal freedom UpdReq Greetings, Peace, Health, and Prosperity. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. There is a move in congress backed by the AMA, and several conservative parties sympathetic to the "War on Drugs" to prohibit the use of certain readily available herbs used in herbal medicine. The following letter can be captured and printed simply by hitting the "print screen" button on your computer. It is hoped that some of you will use your voting power and a 29 cent stamp to conserve your right to heal your body naturally. Please feel free to copy this for folks without computers, and please post this message on other echos as well; especially the Maick Plants echo. Love is the law, love under will. Gerald ___________________________ NAME ___________________________ ADDRESS ___________________________ CITY, STATE, AND ZIP The Honorable _____________________ United States Senator Washington, DC. 20510 RE: "Health Freedom Act of 1992", S. 2835. Dear Senator ______________________ Senator Hatch, R-Utah, has introduced a new bill, "Health Freedom Act of 1992", S. 2835. As a health conscious consumer, I ask you to co-sponsor this bill and work vigorously for its passage. I want the bill enacted because it will bring about less restrictive regulations that will allow me grater access to nutritional supplements and information about the benefits they provide. The new law will establish: 1. A broader definition of dietary supplement, to include herbs and other supplements. 2. That dietary supplements are NOT drugs. 3. That dietary supplements are NOT food additives. 4. That truthful health information about dietary supplements is permitted. 5. That the FDA has no prior restraint authority on truthful labeling or advertising. Sincerely, _________________________ ____________________ SIGNATURE DATE ***end*** ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Darrin Hyrup Area: Thelema To: All 12 Aug 92 01:25:40 Subject: Wormwood extract available UpdReq Greetings folks, I've recently recieved requests for wormwood extract, and decided to invest in making some. To this end, I'm also making it available to any interested parties at the following prices: 16oz for $50.00 8oz for $30.00 4oz for $20.00 (minimum order) All prices include packaging and shipping to addresses within the U.S.A. Please send your cashier's cheque or money order (drawn on U.S. funds) to: Darrin Hyrup 716 E. Jackson St. Medford, OR 97504-6712 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Turbator Area: Thelema To: Frater Almost 11 Aug 92 23:07:42 Subject: minioning Rec'd UpdReq Say Almost, /__\ Way-cool rude noise face... (*)(*) \ )Q ) but a little off-topic eh? ;) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 12 Aug 92 09:27:56 Subject: Re: Tree of Life Sent UpdReq >them to other boards that they deem fit. I'm also checking to see if >BaphoNet has/needs copies. JN> If they have them, they didn't get them from me. But I wouldn't mind if JN> you sent them. And I would be very pleased to get and offer them. Thanks! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718