From: Tau Ursa Area: Thelema To: Peter Giordano 9 Jul 92 01:06:30 Subject: Fork in the road Rec'd Sent UpdReq This is true...I have heard. It also takes an asshole to call some one else an asshole. The Book of the Balance states that it is improper to judge someone else as one day someone may judge you. So be carefull whom or who or when you use the term asshole in a perjorative manner. You may be proven to be the larger posterior after all. Peace be with thy head and tail. Tau 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tau Ursa Area: Thelema To: Peter Giordano 9 Jul 92 01:11:04 Subject: Re: CARE BEARS Rec'd Sent UpdReq You are learning... If I agree with it...It is good. If I disagree with it..It is evil. Never...I say never.. seek a logical reason to someone's statements. Don't confuse me with the facts..sir. Let me make up my own mind... Mind over matter I don't mind....you don't matter. Get it son? Tau 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Thelema To: All 7 Jul 92 07:46:00 Subject: My resignation UpdReq Dear readers, Today, the 7th of July 1992, I am resigning from the Temple of Set. While my action may seem negative with respect to the Temple of Set, my experiences with those in the Temple have been a positive influence in my Xeper. I heartily recommend the Temple of Set to those individuals who may find their journey on the Left Hand path worthwhile and enjoyable. The Temple is an honorable organization. I hope to see it prosper. The problem which exists between the Temple and myself is this; I am not a metaphysician. I have a different understanding of so- called magick. I seem to follow the paths of the Transhumanist. I do not wish to influence the members of the Temple in any untoward way. And I don't wish to be perceived as one who bitches, but doesn't do anything to fix their bitch. My special thanks go to Oz Tech, Balanone, and the members of the Gates of Hell and Sol Niger pylons. These are all honorable people who have treated me well. I hope to see them all prosper in their Xeper. While I go my separate way I will still monitor the nets and my MCI Mail account for any comments readers and Temple members may have. Thanks again goes to the Temple of Set and all the members therein. Herewith I formally resign. Thank you all. Xeper! and Remanifest... Ammond Shadowcraft ... h mr gs! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 5 Jul 92 07:05:00 Subject: Re: Eight Cabala UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> >I've got a number of his documents, mostly relating to the Temple system, JN> >particularly the one on 'Generating the Abyss Experience.' Fascinating JN> >work; sorta like an Enochian Rinzai hammer.... Ia, Ben! Care to comment? JN> For the "official" (guffaw!) Achadian position on the Abyss, see my JN> reply to Paul under this same date and subject. There's much food for thought in said epistle; such, in any case, that I think a furthur look at Fra. Achad's work is in order. Though I'm hardly in a position to agree/disagree with your viewpoint (like you need some fawning sycophants, right?) I would suggest that you not overlook the possibility that that 'technical difficulty' involved in projecting into the Supernals is precisely what is enshrined in Daath and the notion of the Abyss, shorn, of course, of all the pomposity and 'oooh, scary!' nonsense that has accreted since AC (and Achad, in those early years) had a hand (and a stake) in embellishing the Mythos. Daath, as well, relates apparently to an as yet sparsely explored 'gateway' mechanism giving access to what has been interpreted as the backside of the Tree, and provoking more or less controlled interaction with extremely primitive, and powerful, denizens thereof. JN> As for the technique described in 'Generating the Abyss Experience', I JN> haven't used it in years. Scares the SHIT out of me, and makes me sick JN> as a dog for days after. It literally drains the life-energy out of JN> you. Why anyone would want to deliberately create a condition of JN> self-dispersion is beyond me, especially as it isn't necessary. Scary, definitely; but instructive in ways that a verbal warning would never properly convey. There's dis-integration, and then there's dis-integration; understanding, in at least one self-inflicted way, how and why that can occur, is quite as valuable as it is dangerous, and renders, if the candidate is at all on the ball, the likelihood of enforced, or other-inflicted disintegration (as is a real and constant risk when dealing with demonic, klippotic or similar NightSide entities) much less likely, IMO. Like running into a wall, it shows how NOT to enter a house! };-] JN> I almost didn't release the paper, and wouldn't have if the other folks JN> involved hadn't insisted. I still don't know their full reasons for JN> wanting it known. Perhaps they are hoping that some of the worst JN> incompetents will eliminate themselves before they can cause trouble for JN> anyone else. Evolution in action. Maybe, though I think an incompetent would probably have a hard time making it work. All the Temple work requires such visual focus and stability that the average Joe is faced with more real work than he's likely to consider profitable (unless, of course, he's a lama in disguise.....) Love is the Law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X My God.....It's full of Stars..... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Azoth 6 Jul 92 07:06:16 Subject: Re: Liber AL Rec'd UpdReq -=> Azoth sent a message to Kreizenski on 07-03-92 17:59 <=- -=> Liber AL <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. A> [...] on this, but it is my considered opinion that MWT represents A> his most mature thought on the subject. In fact, one of the chapters of MWT is titled "The Holy Guardian Angel is not the Higher Self", or words to that effect. I don't have it in front of me, and can't recall the exact wording. If there's interest, I can look it up, along with the argument itself. A> [...] we can in no way 'bootstrap' our consciousness beyond a A> certain point, and that 'outside' help is required, and provided, for A> any that become prepared to accept and make use of it. This, and not A> the other, refers to the HGA, in my experience and judgement, though A> confusion of the two is probably benign.... "Inside"? "Outside"? You take your angels rather literally, RB. Love is the law, love under will. * BWave/QWK v0.96 * Who invited HIM, anyway??? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 6 Jul 92 07:06:18 Subject: Re: Care Bears UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Frater Almost on 07-03-92 11:17 <=- -=> Re: Care Bears <=- (Excuse my artistic license in the editing of your remarks...) JN> I've encountered many thousands of "mysteries" expressed in symbolic JN> terms and there is not a one of them that could not be JN> expressed in plain terms. JN> I have also encountered many "mysteries" expressed in plain terms. And JN> I've had just as many flashes of insight by using these as I have JN> using the sort of symbol you prefer. Neither can I evaluate either one JN> as being inherently "superior" in terms of its influence on my overall JN> picture of the magickal universe. JN> Based on my experience, I find it perfectly reasonable to conceive of JN> someone achieving a very high level of initiation using either words JN> or symbols alone. I also find it conceivable that a person could JN> achieve an equally high level of initiation without using anything JN> connected with magick, mysticism, or spiritual work, in either words OR JN> symbols. To me, saying one or the other is superior, or saying JN> magicians have a way of attainment inherently superior to JN> non-magicians, is nothing more than chauvinistic, self-serving JN> ego-food. As a statement of personal experience, this is unarguable (though no doubt someone will anyway ). However, and I didn't save all your messages either, my recollection is that you yourself said that AL was doubleplus ungood -I'm paraphrasing, obviously- BECAUSE it stated in obscure, hifalutin' words what could just as easily be read clearer somewhere else. Leaving aside the question of whether that is indeed true (there's more to the book than Do What Thou Wilt), I refer to your remark above, that neither method is inherently better than the other. I, personally, have found that a turn of phrase that either slips by, or derails altogether, my left-hemispheric thinking, can at the same time transmit a message to my right-hemisphere (I use these terms rather loosely) and create an AHA! experience. Obviously, this is the method of the Koan, among other schools. Subliminal enlightenment, if you will. How did I let myself get drawn into this, anyhow? I swore I was gonna keep my trap shut! * BWave/QWK v0.96 * End of sermon. Let the orgy begin. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 6 Jul 92 07:06:20 Subject: Re: Care Bears UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Kreizenski on 07-03-92 14:27 <=- -=> Re: Care Bears <=- JN> Crowley was certainly more facile at using language than I am, it JN> doesn't seem unreasonable to think that the message in Liber AL could JN> have been presented in a clearer form. Kinda makes you think, don't it... (OK, I'll spell it out -- Maybe Uncle Al DIDN'T write it!!!) * BWave/QWK v0.96 * Who needs rhetorical questions? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 6 Jul 92 07:06:22 Subject: Re: Care Bears UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Gerald Del Campo on 07-03-92 14:15 <=- -=> Re: Care Bears <=- JN> Do new revelations have to be expressed in an obscure and JN> idiosyncratic sort of short-code? Or could the spiritual sources just JN> as easily present them in a more direct form? If so, which is JN> preferable? I see the point, that it would have been more efficient, for you anyway, if Aiwass had been more succinct. The obvious response is, why should he/she/it/them/? be concerned with impressing "Josh Norton"? Maybe (speaking of idle speculation) doing so would have lessened AL's impact for a dozen other people! JN> The last question is a matter of aesthetics and individual preference, JN> and thus has no definite answer. But arguing about matters of taste JN> can be as much fun as any other sort of argument. Hehehe... "As brothers fight ye!" 'Course, MY brother and I fought dirty at times... JN> But it is my view that a complete and thorough adherence to the JN> principle of "Do what thou wilt" requires, DEMANDS, that the JN> individual be the absolute, ultimate and final arbiter of their own JN> Will. NO external authority, no matter how holy, no matter how much JN> more evolved, has any right to demand of the person anything that is JN> not in accordance with the individual's true nature. And the individual JN> has a complete and unalterable right to reject any course of action, JN> any belief, any authority, that they do not see as being in accord with JN> their own True Will. Funny, I've seen this attitude expressed here quite a bit since I first came online. After some 18 years with nothing but AC's writing, and AL of course, I found out there were indeed still Thelemites around, and that -surprise, surprise- very few actually took AL as Gospel. Rather a shock at the time. JN> When I criticize Crowley, Liber JN> AL, or other people's presentations of Thelema, it is precisely because JN> their statements violate the principle of "Do what thou wilt". I want JN> to get people to THINK FOR THEMSELVES, and to develop their own, JN> _individual_ standards of judgement. I want them to become aware of JN> the areas where their opinions are second-hand, based on a submissive JN> reaction to some spiritual authority instead of being truly their own. JN> I want them to stop thinking that they are "superior" because they have JN> given uncritical adherence to someone else's ideas. This is the JN> primary purpose of most of my critical remarks here. OOPS! We were doing so well, too. Since when is it your place to want others to conform to your will? Do your will, and leave them to theirs. This is not to squelch discussion of points of view, but the words "I want them..." rather surprised me, coming after such a clear call for the principle of Thelema! 418 JN> * SLMR 2.1a * Five tons of flax! Inflation! A monk asked Tung Shan, "What is Buddha?" Tung Shan said, "Three pounds of flax."* *Some translations read `hemp', which would certainly be worth five tons of flax at today's prices! * BWave/QWK v0.96 * Rise to Adore the Mystery of Love. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Mike Pfeiffer 6 Jul 92 07:06:24 Subject: Re: THELEMA 101 UpdReq -=> Mike Pfeiffer sent a message to Vitriol on 07-01-92 19:39 <=- -=> Re: THELEMA 101 <=- MP> Guess again, pink boy! Who do you think own the MP> redwhiteandblue, Bible thumpin', blackeyed pea eatin' MP> American car companies? Who do you think makes all the MP> spare parts for the piece of shit American car market. This is getting off-topic, so we ought to let it peter out. While I understand what you're saying, it's simply not accurate. At any rate, if it's a choice between me and you losing our jobs and our economy going to hell in a handbasket, or Japan, Inc. having to cut back on their dumping and protectionism, screw them, not us. MP> Besides, nationalism is among the outright silliest MP> forms of pure evil. I thought it was conspiracy theories... 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * When's this stuff wear off, anyway? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Kreizenski 6 Jul 92 07:06:26 Subject: Re: Thoughts : Part 1 UpdReq -=> Kreizenski sent a message to Vitriol on 07-05-92 03:20 <=- -=> Re: Thoughts : Part 1 <=- K> A God's consciousness is so far beyond our own, that as K> far as we are concerned, they aren't conscious..... Or we aren't! Ever read Stapledon's "Star Maker"? The stars themselves, he ultimately discovers, are sentient. K> "THERE is no God, but Man." Humanity itself is K> Sentient/Conscious, and I don't think the Gods would be simply K> Super-Humans. They would be of a level entirely different.... Well, QVIF, but I see it as expressing the idea that WE ARE THE GODS. "The unveiling of the company of heaven." "Because they knew not themselves, and ye knew each other not." ("Given" to me when reading that verse in AL.) K> Besides... what would you call Nuit/Hadit? AL. or LA. ;-) 418, bro! * BWave/QWK v0.96 * ABRAHADABRA 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 6 Jul 92 07:06:00 Subject: Re: Liber AL UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. V > A> [...] we can in no way 'bootstrap' our consciousness beyond a V > A> certain point, and that 'outside' help is required, and provided, for V > A> any that become prepared to accept and make use of it. This, and not V > A> the other, refers to the HGA, in my experience and judgement, though V > A> confusion of the two is probably benign.... V > "Inside"? "Outside"? You take your angels rather literally, RB. Mmmmm. Well, so does He..... };-] Ummph. Anyway, the language falls a little flat; I guess 'angel' is as good a referent as any for someone not human, and not, as far as I am able to judge, myself. Sure, it could be 'me' a million years from now, indulging in a little nostalgia trip. Right. Or the neighbor's telepathic dog. Yeah! Or flashbacks from all the weird stuff I did in the '70's; I should be so lucky. Or maybe Abramelin and 666 and Grant and some others are onto something, and I should just take Him at His Word, and accept what He offers, and get on with the Work. I'll give you three guesses.... Oh, yeah, BTW, I picked up a spare copy of the _Enochian_Evocation_ (just to see if anything had changed since the first printing, you understand) for $30 from Serpent's a week or so ago. The only major differences between it and my older copy are the gold-stamped title on the spine, the blue binding, and the monocolor title page. The first printing had a maroon cloth binding, pasted spine label, and red highlights on the title page (like all the Heptangle first editions I've seen.) There don't seem to have been any editorial changes. Copies are still available from Serpent's or Phanes Press, or you can probably talk me out of this one, now that my curiosity has been satisfied. Nah, I'm not a bibliomaniac. It's only a hobby...only a hobby... Love is the law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X My God.....It's full of Stars..... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Azoth 7 Jul 92 07:07:00 Subject: Re: Liber AL Rec'd UpdReq -=> Azoth sent a message to Kreizenski on 07-04-92 14:17 <=- -=> Liber AL <=- A> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. What you said. 6) 1975 - _The_Commentaries_of_AL_, edited by A> Motta, based on the 'Cefalu' Comment, eliminating 'about a A> third' which Motta says Crowley reconsidered before he died. A> This one is currently in a limited edition of 500 in A> Australia, around $93, or on the collector's market in the A> Weiser edition (cost me $150) Great Googlymoogly, Toto! I think I may have paid as near $9.95 as makes no difference, back in '75 when that was a good 5 hours' pay for me! Guess I better stop posting my name and address, before some Thuggee-practising Son-of-Apep rogue Thelemite braves the bulldog -not to mention the .380 and the 12-guage- to climb in my window! A> This, by the way, is a big part of the basis for Ken Grant's work in A> propagating his English 'Typhonian OTO,' having furthur identified A> Aiwass with Set/Typhon, and thereby established a pragmatic connection A> with a very broad spectrum of Tantric and dark magickal theory and A> practice. The central fact of Aiwass' existence is, in this viewpoint, A> of more immediate importance than his 'message.' "Fascinating, Captain." A> It is however, also true, that when I did, just a short A> time past, meet and speak with my HGA for the first time, OK, so what's the magick word? You know, the short cut. Talk fast, mister! Don't make us bring in... THE COMFY CHAIR!!! A> I've met the Guardian of the Threshold, and He's NOT Me! So Pogo was wrong, huh? Hmm... So much for theoretical musings- the voice of experience tends to shatter the daydream. Now I REALLY want to meet Hir! Amazing how much eagerness your message evokes in Me! But no button, huh? No magic pill, no buy-a-black-hen-without- haggling-and-sacrifice-it-at-the-crossroads quick and easy spell, no here-just-read-this-self-help-book, no instant K&C? //Sigh// Ah, well... Would it be impertinent to ask for more info? Or is it really irrelevant to anyone else's GW, and therefore only likely to fall into the pit of a point of idle conversation? Digression: I am reminded of MWT: "I am afraid you have still got the idea that the Great Work is a tea-party. Contact with other students only means that you criticize their hats, and then their morals; and I am not going to encourage this. Your work is not anybody else's; and undirected chatter is the worst poisonous element in human society." A> Love is the Law, love under will. Ditto I guess it's academic to tell you: 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * =+=Vitriol=+= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Peter Giordano 9 Jul 92 07:30:40 Subject: Re: Nicholas Tharcher Rec'd UpdReq -=In a missive of 01 Jan 80 00:55:14, Peter Giordano said to Tony Iannotti=- (regarding Re: Nicholas Tharcher) PG> DO post their names, Tony. I will cheerfully read them lovely for PG> you. There's nothing I hate worst then some shady piece of slime who PG> hasn't the guts to tell you stuff to your face. It looks like he is now out of the picture. We are dealing directly with Chris Hyatt, who is being as reasonable as Nicky was not. I think we will have no more problems with them over this, once we work out a polite way of stating their rights (publishing rights, not copyrights) in the files. Some sort of note that the book form is available from them, or some such. Thanks for your support! (BTW -- you might want to try shorter quotes from the message to which you reply. Sometimes people won't read to the bottom. I try to keep it to four line chunks. Just a sugg!) 93! ... We need an Alexandria they cannot burn! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Tau Ursa 9 Jul 92 07:33:08 Subject: Re: Fork in the road UpdReq -=In a missive of 09 Jul 92 01:06:30, Tau Ursa said to Peter Giordano=- (regarding Re: Fork in the road) TU> This is true...I have heard. It also takes an asshole to call some TU> one else an asshole. The Book of the Balance states that it is TU> improper to judge someone else as one day someone may judge you. So be TU> carefull whom or who or when you use the term asshole in a perjorative TU> manner. You may be proven to be the larger posterior after all. Oh, I am definitely an asshole at times, and my inflammatory posts are an example. (You may have seen me do a similar thing with Tim...) But I do not wish to avoid being judged, since I learn from other people's perceptions of me, whether or not I accept their judgements. Thanks for yours, and 93! ... We need an Alexandria they cannot burn! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Thelema To: Peter Giordano 9 Jul 92 19:41:24 Subject: Re: CARE BEARS Rec'd Sent UpdReq You see, you too have confused _Liber AL_ and the Master Therion with Aleister Crowley! Aaaarrrggghhh! "I am Alone! There is no hope where I am!" ;) Seriously, though, I was in on the 'hate Crowley now, avoid the rush' thing when I first got into Thelema. I do not worship Crowley, I do not worship the OTO, I worship myself and my God and that is all. I am a Thelemite. The _Liber AL_ is still out there, floating in space, perfect in it's divine symbology.... Go read it for yourself... The words'll come out different but it'll still be Liber AL. I've looked upon that perfect, blue, Lapis tablet many times... by using Crowley's method and by using various other methods.... And all of the varying times, it's been pretty much as AC had it just in different... I can see where he got the language to put it down.... I can understand why the God(s) need at least one Prophet but remember, "All Prophets are true..." etc. Yeah, I first thought that Norton was a Non-Thelemite but now I am corrected..... I get really sick of non-Thelemites muddeling up the works.... Egads! The Wiccan debate of "Which Came first: Thelema or the New Forest Coven" syndrome is what I thhink I am suffering from, ergo, I now have taken on a new degree title: Supreme High Magister of the Vault of I.et.A... Ignorance and Apathy.... I don't know and I really don't care. ;) Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718