From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Kreizenski 4 Jul 92 14:17:02 Subject: Liber AL UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. K > How/What/When/Where can I acquire an later comments that he wrote? I've K > never seen any other edition of LawIsForAll than this one. To summarize, the Beast wrote these commentaries, at least: 1) The 'Old Comment', c1912 2) The 'New Comment', also called the 'Cefalu Comment', c1918-1925 3) The 'Djeridensis Comment', which is the 'Comment called D', c1923 4) The 'Comment in Class A', c1925 5) The brief Comment included in 'Genesis Libri AL', c1936 Principal printed editions of these comments are, at least: 1) 1912 - _Equinox_ I,7: the 'Old Comment' 2) 1926 - _An_Extenuation_of_the_Book_of_the_Law_, 'Old' and 'New' Comments privately printed in Tunis; good luck! 3) 1936 - _Equinox_of_the_Gods_, 'Genesis Libri AL', currently in New Falcon reprint 4) 1974 - _Magickal_and_Philosophical_Commentaries_, 93 Publishing, Toronto Contains the 'Old', 'New', and 'D' Comments, the most compleat, but expensive on the collector's market (I just paid $175) 5) 1975 - _The_Law_Is_For_All, edited by Regardie, based on the _Extenuation_ and containing much of the 'Old' and 'New' Comments, but not all 6) 1975 - _The_Commentaries_of_AL_, edited by Motta, based on the 'Cefalu' Comment, eliminating 'about a third' which Motta says Crowley reconsidered before he died. This one is currently in a limited edition of 500 in Australia, around $93, or on the collector's market in the Weiser edition (cost me $150) There's also a file called comments.arc on BaphoNet containing much the same as the one [#4, above] from 93 Publishing, though I understand that it'll soon be removed under threat of suit from some bean-counting Osirian out at New Falcon. I've got it if you're interested; the electronic form IS much easier to search. In any case, the letters in _Magick_Without_Tears_ happened years after any of Crowley's other Comments were written. K > AZ\>included in the _Equinox_of_the_Gods_, 1936, he identifies Aiwass not K > AZ\>only as his own HGA, but as a Sumerian deity, and a man or man-form in K > AZ\>his own right (Chapter 7,) highly unlikely if Aiwass were simply his K > AZ\>Higher Self. K > Hm. Thought on this.... still thinking. This, by the way, is a big part of the basis for Ken Grant's work in propagating his English 'Typhonian OTO,' having furthur identified Aiwass with Set/Typhon, and thereby established a pragmatic connection with a very broad spectrum of Tantric and dark magickal theory and practice. The central fact of Aiwass' existence is, in this viewpoint, of more immediate importance than his 'message.' K > Here's where reading too many books, and not enough discussion on such K > matters leaves me more than a bit dry on the subject. Out of simple K > curiosity, why is that your matter of choice? Why do you percieve it K > that way, as opposed to another way? The simple reason is that I spent many years chasing (and finding!) my own Higher Self, and becoming (an ongoing process!) reacquainted with my own True nature. You can roughly figure this process has occupied a significant portion of my attention for the last 20-odd years (I'm pushing 40.) You can also figure that many lesser and greater initiations, visions, meditations, realizations, etc, have ocurred over that time, both as a result of my involvement with Magick and mysticism, and as a result of simple life experience. It's only fair to say that very many times I've viewed my inner Being as 'someone' other than my concious ego/self: that is surely true, in at _least_ one sense! It is however, also true, that when I did, just a short time past, meet and speak with my HGA for the first time, it was Me (in the exalted union with my own true nature) that met Him, not in the body, but as tangibly separate as you and I. It may be that in Aeons to come, I may play a role as HGA to someone else, and so carry forward the initiation chain so forged in my relationship with Him; having only just begun to sound the wells of memory, I can barely begin to perceive the karmic links which govern such things. In short, I've met the Guardian of the Threshold, and He's NOT Me! K > AZ> His work may have been of central importance to himself, but K > AZ> it's only as significant to me as it is useful, K > AZ> and his view of AL as a grimoire is of more practical consequence K > AZ> than his contention that it contains a revelation of 'Truth.' If, K > Wha-huh??? If I understood that correctly, you have no use for A.C. or K > his work, other than the fact that you mix your thought with his when K > working with his systems, which you find extremely useful....?? I feel K > like I'm running circles... Hehe... Sorry about that; my reason often threatens to grow legs and walk away when I talk about the Beast (like circular, whose Point is nowhere found!) Anyway, I have for a variety of reasons a _very_ high regard for To Mega Therion, his life and Work. BUT, _I_ am the centre of my Universe, NOT 666, and his accomplishments are of no practical consequence to me except insofar as they more or less reliably point the Way for my own accomplishment of the Great Work. This central selfishness (or one- pointedness, depending on your mood) is, IMO, key to understanding even the most abberrant aspects of AC's life, and, I must admit, mine as well. When it comes to my own life and Work, My Will, NOT his, is done. I do, however, acknowledge his as a rather fine Finger pointing at a rather lovely Moon.... K > work out what is useful/useless to me. The weirdest part is the fact K > that most of his philosophy [or my understand of it] is close enough to K > mine to make merging it a NUL point..... I indeed do know what you mean. Love is the Law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X There is no law beyond. Do what thou wilt. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Neuro Sonic Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 6 Jul 92 01:01:10 Subject: Re: Lucifer myths UpdReq It seems to me that what you are referring to is a process of magickally combining to become a single-group willed entity or perhaps throwing enough energy out that it gains a sentience of its own accord. This reminds me very much as to the fabric of Political/Nationalistic/Religious Machines to warp Social Reality. The thought energy or belief system grows so great and unwieldy that it's size seems to pull the debris(sheep) into it's gravitational field of belief's. Even swaying the pull of the Fence Riders. But it also seems that so many Social Entities that are created, no longer are controlled by the intentions of the originators and tend to spit forth their own Magickal Children or prophets to spread the word. Selling the individual choice to the Order in order to trade for Placements in the Hierchy of the Machine, along with the illusion of personal power, which is ultimately taken away if the Will of The created entity is Jeopardized at all. (Did I make any sense their?) Hope I didn't miss the point again, but I remember commentaries made in "Soldier and The Hunchback", regarding the Survival mechanics of the founders of the Holy Roman Empire and something to do with it being a magickal entity out of control. As far as the Nazi's, to me, any combination of wills working together for a common goal and achieving it, is a small Magickal entity! Neuro- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Neuro Sonic Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 6 Jul 92 01:24:40 Subject: Re: Care Bears UpdReq JN>Saying nonmagicians have a level of intiation unequal to that of I agree fully! Many times in _Mundane_ existence have run into some of the most enlightened folk I know! Some of these were farmers, some backpackers, some ex-military, some homeless.... But they were much "higher on the tree" than many a so called Student of the Mysteries. They were students of Life. And the school of Life is what itd's all about!!! Neuro Sonic 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Neuro Sonic Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 6 Jul 92 01:58:24 Subject: Liber AL UpdReq Once Again I agree most adamantly! But that's only because I've come to the same conclusions through my own experiences! So often of late, I have developed a personal theory of General reality to have it confirmed only a week or so later (sometimes less time) but something written elsewhere in completely different context! Nothing is true, Everything is permitted! Neuro Sonic 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Neuro Sonic Area: Thelema To: Frater Almost 6 Jul 92 02:28:30 Subject: Re: CARE BEARS Rec'd UpdReq Norton makes you think dammnit! That's what his doing in Thelema! He isn't any less Thelemic for it! Are you a Thelemite or a Crowleyite? I value Thelema, I value Chaos, I value Food, but most important, ( as Josh points out repeatedly ) I value my own experience and enlightenment. And Josh seems very intent on hoping that many a Thelemite does not fall into the trap of becoming a Crowleyite! Even ol' Uncle Al' was hoping this wouldn't be the case, yet he knew it was unavoidable to a certain extent! If you meditate hard and long on a package of poptarts you might come up with something "new" to say, yet it is obvious that with Liber Al, the overall sentiment was synthesis not originality! Neuro Sonic 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mike Pfeiffer Area: Thelema To: Frater Almost 5 Jul 92 18:22:26 Subject: Re: CARE BEARS Rec'd UpdReq Yeah, Alright. I think that my objection was to the fact that your language strode a middle ground, rather than being perfetctly neutral or telling him to fuck off outright. I understand being sick of certain arguments, but I guess I just don't understand losing patience halfway, and then deigning to respond to a subject you're sick of. In any event, 93. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mike Pfeiffer Area: Thelema To: Neuro Sonic 5 Jul 92 18:38:24 Subject: Re: LIBER AL UpdReq I might take it a little further than that. If Aiwass can be said to exist as an entity at all, it still would be no more separate from him than any of us are from one another. The Einstein-Rosen-Podolsky effects postulated as a reductio ad absurdum of Quantum Mechanics involved faster than light (or more likely nonlocal) communications between particles which were once in contact. If the Big Bang model is even close to correct then all things were once part of a unified thing, and remain in contact. Consider - You and I are in contact, albeit indirect, via the atmosphere which we share. Similarly, everything in the Universe is connected by electromagnetic radiation (3 degrees Kelvin background at least). But yeah, I think it might be safe to say that Aiwass was anaspect of Crowley. Enough of my pedantry on the subject... 93! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mike Pfeiffer Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 5 Jul 92 18:51:18 Subject: Re: POLITICAL STUPIDITY UpdReq Forgive my paranoia, but: those in power are attempting to impose a behavior code on the rest of us. The people don't make the laws, and never have. The laws are almost always there to slant things in favor of the rich. Lip service to freedom and justice - but the guns follow the money, and always have. Could it be different? I am forced to imagine it could. How do we get there from here? good question. Voting won't do it. By the time a candidate or bill gets far enough along to be seriously considered by the power structure, it must conform to the pre-existing aims of that structure - stated and unstated aims, which tend to slant things in favor of the rich. All the rest of it is just window dressing to keep us from rising up in arms... But if Thelema is an accurate model, what's a few generations of totalitarianism in the long run? 93! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Thelema To: Neuro Sonic 7 Jul 92 02:53:28 Subject: Re: CARE BEARS Sent UpdReq I am a Thelemite, Sir!! And, if you think that Norton makes you think, then you obviously don't think very much in your spare time...... Norton would sit and say that _AL_ is not the Word of God.... Well I say that he is wrong and that it is the Word of the Infinite just like anything that he or I or you writes is the word of God. Think about that. Norton is just out on an anti-Crowley kick..... I don't care for Uncle Al much myself but I will not deny him the _Liber AL_ as it was a fore-shadowing of the things to come. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark Ad Area: Thelema To: Josh Norton 6 Jul 92 18:13:22 Subject: Re: LIBER AL UpdReq > And the goddess who is this world is one of my two constant > companions, > despite what any wiccans may say to the contrary. ;-> > Greetings Josh! Not meaning to butt in here (but doing it anyway), why would a wiccan contest that statement of yours? Blessed Be 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Olorin 5 Jul 92 10:50:02 Subject: POLITICAL stupidity UpdReq >Normally in history democratic governments that lost touch and became >exclusive have become dictatorships. Either by the original powerbrokers >or the rebellions leaders who saw the "failure of democracy" and wanted >..... >DOWN..Destroy it ..or Fix it make it work. The fact that it takes work >to make it work is why it is failing now, no one in the last 20 years >cared enough to work at government, they left it to others (More than >willing to Care for it= steal it) and got screwed, well shame on them >for not screening and watching the babysitter...blind trust is blind. Seems to me that the only real solution is to not allow government to accumulate power in the first place. The power to tax is especially pernicious, since it allows an unlimited number of power-tokens (i.e. money) to be accumulated. Jefferson et.al. were going in the right direction, they just couldn't take it far enough in their circumstances. * SLMR 2.1a * Did you expect to find words of wisdom here? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Chris Feldman 5 Jul 92 13:08:04 Subject: Da Bears UpdReq >I've moved this thread here from the Tarot echo. Thanks! My BBS won't let me move a reply to a different section. Annoying! >First of all, I found the personal attacks on you rather disgusting >and uncalled for. Whether I agree with you or not, your posts were >interesting and thought-provoking, and since I don't believe in >sacrilege, I don't have a personal problem with you expressing your >viewpoint, whether "unthelemic" or not. Thanks again. A person who descends to the level of personal attacks generally ends up destroying his own credibility. But since my Set-aspect is close to the surface, it gets VERY hard to resist the urge to rip his throat out. I'm not entirely without fault -- my comments are often deliberately provocative. Every group needs an anadvocate, a nay-sayer, someone who tests their beliefs and assumptions. By taking on the role, I can expect to get an occasional burst of blind fury along with the more polite responses. And really, I'm not against Thelema; I just think that its current embodiment has some serious internal contradictions and unrecognized assumptions that need to be addressed and resolved. If I didn't think it was possible to resolve them, I wouldn't put so much effort into pointing them out and trying to stimulate people to think about them. >Second, in re-reading your post to Michelle on Horus Stage, Set Stage >and Nepthys Stage, it struck me that one could just as easily >substitute Hadit for Set, and Nuit for Nepthys in this classification >system. I had considered substituting Nuit for the Nepthys stage at one time. But I decided to go with the more generic Egyptian gods because they fit better with the many other non-initiatory manifestations of the basic fourfold formula. (Said formula, incidentally, is IRNI; a sequential progression of Earth-solar Fire-Water-Air.) As for Hadit in place of Set, your point is valid, but I don't think Hadit fits the conditions quite as well as Set does. Hadit IS present in that stage, as the "essence" or "mysterious something" that has to be freed from the soul. But the activities necessary to the stage seem strongly connected to the sign of Scorpio, which has closer associations to the characteristics of Set. I should emphasize that this is only one way of looking at the initiatory process. It has its advantages for certain types of people, but it is far from being the only way. Being based on a fourfold formula, it naturally tends towards viewing initiation as a sequence of separations, where the various threefold symbolisms tend to view it as a sequence of unions. >(One might even stretch it a bit to make it RHK, HPK, and HRH.) My personal conception of these forms of Horus doesn't fit at all well with the IRNI formula. But they very well could be part of a formula of initiation when the process is viewed from a different angle. Tell me what you think of this: Frater Achad's version of the Tree of Life is very suggestive of something of the sort. In his Tree, the path of Shin (fire) connects Kether with Tiphereth. Heru-Ra-Ha, being a combination of Fire (Heru), Tiphereth (Ra) and Kether (Ha or Hadit) embodies this path and its endpoints in an inclusive form. Hoor-Pa-Kraat (Kether) and Ra-Hoor-Khuit (Tiphereth) could represent the separation of Heru-Ra-Ha into two distinct halves. Since the Thelemic symbolism generally depicts the initiatory process as a sequence of unions (rather than as a sequence of separations, as in the IRNI formula) we could think of HPK and RHK as being the pre-union state, with the man-aspect (RHK) and god-aspect (HPK) being apparently separated. The full manifestation of the third member of the Thelemic trinity, Heru-Ra-Ha, only appears when the two are united. Heru-Ra-Ha would be something akin to the "essence" I described, capable of acting simultaneously on both the god-levels and the human levels. There's another suggestive aspect of Achad's Tree: The paths around the outside of the "heavenly hexagram" -- i.e. the paths that connect the sephiroth in the sequence 1-2-4-6-5-3-1 -- have the same total value as the gematria value of the Hebrew word for "womb". So the upper part of his Tree gives a picture of Horus emerging from the womb (of Nuit?), an image that Crowley has used in numerous places -- among them his Tarot card for the letter Shin. I find these echoes and reverberations in the Tree tantalizing, though I haven't tried to carry them much further. * SLMR 2.1a * Follow a Paranoid 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 5 Jul 92 13:39:00 Subject: Re: New Falcon Pub. Shows Its Colors! UpdReq 93 Tony; I have always seen Hyatts relationship with the OTO as a financial one. I even heard rhumors once that he had considered a more fraternal relationship with us and cringed at the thought that he would be doing it only to get the rights of these materials. The fact that he is a "vanity press" who publishes only authors that are willing to pay or dead poets who will not sue, like Crowley...and now Regardie. Good thing it was only a rhumor. In any case: Anyone who wishes any of the Crowley material that I have has only to send blank disks and postage to my PO Box adress. Love is the Law. Gerald P.S. Isn't there some stipulation which falls under fair usage laws which would protect us from sharing this info? ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Gerald Del Campo 7 Jul 92 07:26:56 Subject: Re: New Falcon Pub. Shows Its Colors! UpdReq -=In a missive of Mon 5 Jul 92 13:39, Gerald Del Campo said to Tony Iannotti=- (regarding Re: New Falcon Pub. Shows Its Colors!) GDC> P.S. Isn't there some stipulation which falls under fair usage laws GDC> which would protect us from sharing this info? I understand that Fair Use is constanmtly being redefined case by case, but yes, it does exist, and seems in the past to have mostly been tied to few copies for little money of a published work. In this case, it is quite a few copies for no money of a related work. So that's a definite ambiguity. ;-) ... We need an Alexandria they cannot burn! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718