From: Olorin Area: Thelema To: Gerald Del Campo 21 Jun 92 20:42:00 Subject: POLITICAL stupidity UpdReq GDC> JN> Regarding voting/not voting, I think what Boss Tweed said over a GDC> JN> century ago still sums up the situation in the USA with precision: GDC> JN> "I don't care who does the voting, as long as I get to do the GDC> JN> nominating." GDC> JN> The situation here is set up to make it as hard as possible for GDC> JN> anyone who is not part of the "business as usual" power structure to GDC> JN> get elected. Actually getting something done after election is even GDC> JN> harder. GDC>Tis' true. The "Democratic vote" as it stands today is a joke; a token to GDC>used to fascinate those who think by doing so they are somehow responsible GDC>the "elective" process. People are finally waking up to this idea. A few GDC>years ago they'd call you a hippie and accuse you of smoking too much pot f GDC>thinking this. GDC>So, what do we do? Normally in history democratic governments that lost touch and became exclusive have become dictatorships. Either by the original powerbrokers or the rebellions leaders who saw the "failure of democracy" and wanted no real part of it. We are good at isolating the problem but not the solution. Particularly in politics people think that a system is to blame not the people that the collective They put there. It keeps them from dealing with the true reason- that power will corrupt, shared power corrupts, thats why old T jefferson said we need a revolution every 20 years to keep our freedom and government from becoming as it has, a government of insiders. All Complaint no solution makes the argument dull. Politics is as complicated as a relationship and needs the same attention and work, work at it : a. Earn the right to bitch. b. Only say "kill the bastards" and then replace them with other bastards or soon to be bastards solves nothing. c. Get involved. Other point: activism is positive or negative as is everything. You can say tear it DOWN..Destroy it ..or Fix it make it work. The fact that it takes work to make it work is why it is failing now, no one in the last 20 years cared enough to work at government, they left it to others (More than willing to Care for it= steal it) and got screwed, well shame on them for not screening and watching the babysitter...blind trust is blind. Alright so I did say I wouldn't ....But I did ....I'm better now...this is totally off topic SORRRRRY..Pax Celtoi! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Voltaire Area: Thelema To: Frater Q.A.A. 3 Jul 92 17:58:00 Subject: Re: MUSCIAN EH? UpdReq I am a major fan of all the musicians you listed (coil, current 93, psychic tv); however, except for Current 93, I had no idea these groups were related whatsoever to Thelema. Although I am a devout Wiccan, I carry a strong interest in ceremonial magick. I would be most appreciative if you could explain any references these groups have in some of their music to magick. For instance, I have a copy of Current 93 performing live at Amsterdam. One of the songs being, "Maldoror is Dead". I'm assuming Maldoror is one of Crowley's many psuedonyms, but could you please explain? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Kreizenski 3 Jul 92 17:59:00 Subject: Liber AL UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. K > AZ>In his letters to Jane Wolfe, circa 1943, he was still rather adamant K > AZ>regarding the separate, objective and independent existence of his K > AZ>HGA. K > Regardie spoke of the idea in the intro to one of his books, and Crowley K > spoke the same in The Law is For All. _The_Law_Is_For_All_ is editorially derived from Crowley's Cefalu Comment, which dates from 1918-1925 and represents his earlier thought, rather than his later, as well his Old Comment, which dates from 1912 or so. The incomplete Djeridensis Comment, which is given in the 93 Pubs edition, dates from only 1923 (the Comment called 'D'.) In 'Genesis Libri Al', included in the _Equinox_of_the_Gods_, 1936, he identifies Aiwass not only as his own HGA, but as a Sumerian deity, and a man or man-form in his own right (Chapter 7,) highly unlikely if Aiwass were simply his Higher Self. I am perfectly willing to be wrong on this, but it is my considered opinion that MWT represents his most mature thought on the subject. K > In my musings, I have often thought of the "star" as being the HGA, K > while we are the manifestation, incarnation of that star's self, in the K > search of experience. We are disguised, even from ourselves. We know not K > the beauty of our True Self. Well, sir, I can hardly disagree with your perceptions in this case, but I think that your use of the HGA terminology is probably inappropriate, IMHO. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a Higher component to our Selfhood, and that a goodly portion of enLightenment consists in becoming aware of That, and bringing down the Fire, as it were, into our daily existence. I am as sure, however, that we can in no way 'bootstrap' our consciousness beyond a certain point, and that 'outside' help is required, and provided, for any that become prepared to accept and make use of it. This, and not the other, refers to the HGA, in my experience and judgement, though confusion of the two is probably benign.... K > Well, that seems to have been more on my thoughts than his. I will try K > to dig up that text, or apologize to you if I cannot find it (mixing my K > thoughts with his, indeed!). No apology needed, in either case; I just like to keep my references straight, and 666 did change his mind, occasionally(?!) His work may have been of central importance to himself, but it's only as significant to me as it is useful, and his view of AL as a grimoire is of more practical consequence than his contention that it contains a revelation of 'Truth.' If, as he insisted, AL did follow directly from his HGA, it was of necessity expressed in terms that he, and he alone, determined, and mixing ones own thoughts with his is, IMO, the only profitable approach to take. It's probably unnecessary to say that I find his work _extremely_ useful. Love is the Law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X My God.....It's full of Stars..... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Thelema To: Kreizenski 3 Jul 92 17:53:02 Subject: Re: Creation/Destruction UpdReq 93 K > Ancient Ones. When prompted for a password, he uttered "There is no K > God." This was repeated around the circle, until it was returned to him. K > When he had uttered it, he thought of it as a God-Rebellious statement. K > When it was returned to him, the same words meant something altogether K > different.... YES! 93 93/93--- X BABBLE v1.0 X I am alone: there is no God where I am. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 4 Jul 92 07:04:02 Subject: New Falcon Pub. Shows It Rec'd UpdReq TI> It pains me to have to announce that New Falcon Publications has TI> threatened to sue the OTO if the text files of the original Magick TI> Without Tears, and the commentaries on Liber AL are not pulled from all TI> BBSs. They claim that it is an infringement of their contract with the TI> OTO to allow such electronic distribution, even though their edition of TI> Magick Without Tears is only 2/3 of the real thing, and their Law is for TI> All is in a similar state of abridgement. TI> My apologies for the actions of the assholes at New Falcon TI> Publications, and also for my acquiescence, but I feel that discretion TI> is the better part of valor at this point. They will suffer for it in TI> the future, I assure everyone. TI> Love is the law, love under will. I note that the files are listed in this BBS, so if they're still actually there, I'll download them out of putridity. (I hope soon to have the complete 777 tables in a .WKS file ready for upload. The .WKS format was chosen because most database and spreadsheet programs seem able to import that format.) ___ X SLMR 1.0 X Not Paranoid (enough) (yet...) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Thelema To: Steven Craig 4 Jul 92 07:04:04 Subject: Re: Lucifer myths UpdReq SC> I disagree that "our longing for Eden is the spiritual SC>equivilant of a return to nursery school". For one thing, SC>Adam and Eve were not in the animal state before they SC>partook of the fruit. They were, in a sense, in a higher SC>state; one in which they were in constant communication SC>with God. The eating of the fruit weakened that link, but This assumes animals don't have contact with the Divine, doesn't it? SC>more importantly, put the couple into the universe of SC>duality. Or at least AWARENESS of duality. Not quite the same thing. SC> The analogy of the Great Work as a return to Eden, to me, is not a longin SC>for the Secure Past, but rather a desire to reach a state SC>unbound by duality. Someone who starts at Malkuth and SC>climbs their way up the Tree of Life is better off than SC>someone who started at the top, in the sense that the SC>former will have obtained a great deal of experience in SC>hir travels. Granted. But it was the eating of the fruit which triggered the fall down the Tree of Life into Malkuth, and started them on the task of making the Serpent's climb back up. What is that line from "2001" by A.C. Clarke? "-Unwittingly, he crossed [the threshold] at once. Now he had to cross it again -- this time under conscious volition. The thought terrified him.-" The theory I'm working under is that the developmental path was fairly automatic up to the point where Man became sentient as a result of eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Now, we have to make conscious choices in order to advance. SC> Incidentally, some people have theorized that the reason Adam & Eve got SC>kicked out of Eden was not merely a result of eating the SC>fruit. Rather, God confronted Adam with the deed, and his SC>response was "it was her fault!" It was his failure to SC>accept responsibility, and his haste in passing the buck, SC>that got them kicked out of Eden. Maybe. Maybe not. The tendency in the Tanakh is to show heroes as being human, warts and all. ___ X SLMR 1.0 X Thinkers have working hypotheses; only fools have truth. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Azoth 4 Jul 92 14:10:04 Subject: Re: Creation/Destruction Rec'd UpdReq >'expected' manifestation. Bloody confusing, at first, but the Tablets >seem to be rather more (and less) that what they've been described. >The Keys, as well, but in a different way.... I'm interested in how you see the Keys as being different from their descriptions. Not saying I disagree, just curious as to your view. >JN> manifests to us, the way in which magickal entities present themselves, >JN> and the way in which we individually interpret our experiences, are all >JN> largely dependent on our nature as individuals. And on the kind of >JN> intellectual and experiential baggage we already carry around. We >JN> abstract certain aspects from the experience, ignore others, and apply >JN> labels to those abstractions just as we do for "mundane" experience. >It would appear, though, that many spiritual/magickal experiences are >had with a sufficient commonality of content to permit at least tentative >identification, given the inevitable 'humanity' of the personalities >involved, on this Side anyway. Can't argue with that! There ARE common elements to be picked out of mass. But I wonder if those common elements don't say more about the nature of the human nervous system than they do about the nature of the cosmos. And it seems to extend deep into areas we normally don't consider magickal. I was really shocked when I realized how all-pervasive the Horus-Set mythos is in human affairs. >JN> Even at the best of times, we haven't eliminated the problem, but simply >JN> chopped out one or two levels of abstraction over what a purely >JN> intellectual philosopher uses. >Hmmmm. I regard that 'one or two levels' gone as a major improvement! Yeah, it's the difference between "horrendous" and the merely "horrible". * SLMR 2.1a * Scratch a liberal and you will find a fascist. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Mike Pfeiffer 4 Jul 92 14:44:06 Subject: Re: CARE BEARS UpdReq > Your interpretation of the fact that Liber AL was >filtered h Crowley's synapses as perhaps invalidatit as a >source for moral authority is just tthat - an >interpretation of the data as filtered through your nervous >syst. Where is the objectivity in this process >(objectivity, surely I jest) >submit to you sir, that your LIb AL, like youe, your Cabala >and what you think any given word means are unique to you, >though we may ree on major points. I can't pretend to "objectivity" -- or even to a degree of relative dispassion -- when it comes to anything related to Crowley or his version of Thelema. I'm the "disloyal opposition". >I think the metaphysics of Thelema, which are passibly >conveyed by the Book of t, are the source of "moral" >authority, and I for one find the structural/functional >aspects of the metaphysic works beautifully. The problem I have is that what I see as the "metaphysics" of Liber AL -- i.e. the Nuit, Hadit, Heru-Ra-Ha symbolism, the expression of the essential uniqueness of all humans, etc. -- is contradicted by other more explicitly "moral" declarations in the book. Such as its admonitions to obey the words of the prophet, and all those "go out and stomp the heathen" admonitions. Despite having poured over nearly 90 years worth of nattering on the subject, I still haven't seen a convincing reconciliation of the contradictions. Most explanations seem as twisty as those of Xtian theologians reconciling an omnibenevolent God with the existence of evil. Or they are variations on the theme "It doesn't mean what it says." >Besides, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" - > this includes your looking for moral authority outside of >Liber AL, if it be thy will >(though why one should chase such a phantom as moral authority is quite >beyond me). When someone talks to me about "moral authority", I check my weapons; he's looking for an excuse to do something nasty. * SLMR 2.1a * Five tons of wax! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Max Delysid Area: Thelema To: Steven Craig 4 Jul 92 14:05:58 Subject: RE: Re: Eight Cabala UpdReq In a message to Max Delysid written on Friday, July 3, 1992 at 12:37:09, Steven Craig writes: SC> Might you, or someone else, be so kind as to enlighten the ignorant SC> regarding SC> the Bahir? This is something I've never even heard of before, but it SC> sounds rather interesting. well, i won't go digging into my notes right now - - (just woke up...) - - but i will quiote a little from the introduction and give you a reference... 'the _Bahir_ is one of the oldest and most important of all classical Kabbalah texts. Until the publication of the _Zohar_, the _Bahir_ was the most influential and widely quoted primary source of Kabbalistic teachings. It is quoted in virtually every major book on Kabbalah, the earliest being the Raavad's commentary on _Sepher Yetzirah_, and is cited numerous times by Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman (Ramban) in his commentary on the Torah. It is also paraphrased and quoted many times in the _Zohar_.' it is still in print, from Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-618-3 with commentary by Aryeh Kaplan. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Karl Lembke 5 Jul 92 21:04:16 Subject: Re: New Falcon Pub. Shows It UpdReq -=In a missive of 04 Jul 92 07:04:02, Karl Lembke said to Tony Iannotti=- (regarding Re: New Falcon Pub. Shows It) KL> I note that the files are listed in this BBS, so if they're still KL> actually there, I'll download them out of putridity. (I hope soon to They may be removed by now, but they are elsewhere for a while. I am going to keep them online until I actually get a letter, but I may be being foolish. (I was born on April 1st, so....) KL> have the complete 777 tables in a .WKS file ready for upload. The KL> .WKS format was chosen because most database and spreadsheet programs KL> seem able to import that format.) That sounds _very_ interesting! I would really like to make that available here too! (So far Weiser has been a gem, regarding files.) ... We need an Alexandria they cannot burn! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718