From: Amergin O'kai Area: Thelema To: All 23 Jun 92 09:29:00 Subject: Alla Camp UpdReq Greetings from Fennas Istarion! A couple of weeks ago I mailed an inquiry to Alla camp here in Denver to find out about local O.T.O. activity and possible admission. Unfortunately, I received my letter back last Friday marked "Box closed Unable to Forward." I'm now back in square one. Does anyone know of another address for this body, or another camp in Denver (I have an address for Sipapu Camp up in the mountains, but Crestone is not very accessable to me), where I could send my inquiry? The closed address of Alla Camp was PO Box 18373 Denver... Thanks in advance, 93 AOK 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Thelema To: Kreizenski 21 Jun 92 06:21:10 Subject: Re: Creation/Destruction UpdReq KR>JN)>(The second point I was trying to make was that energy applied directly KR>JN)>to the act of creation will automatically destroy those existent forms KR>JN)>and ONLY those forms - that are incompatible with the creation. Whereas KR>JN)>energy applied specifically towards destruction tends to be misapplied, KR>JN)>and in any case contributes nothing towards the strength of the new KR>JN)>creation. Therefor, as a matter of practicality and efficient use of KR>JN)>energy, it is better to apply all one's energies to the creation and le KR>JN)>the destruction take care of itself. But this point seems to have been KR>JN)>missed by everyone who has responded.) KR>When you wish to create, that is. Often, I will destroy something that KR>has interfered with the balance of an object/area. When I do, I return KR>that object/area to it's former balance. I would define what I did as KR>destruction, rather than 'creation of balance'. May a better way to say KR>it would be that 'energy applied to destruction with intent of change KR>tends to be misapplied.' Creation can be achieved by destruction. The joke in which the sculptor, asked how he carved that angel, replies "Simple; I merely cut away everything that didn't look like an angel!" IOW, -"Simple; I merely destroyed those parts that didn't look like what I was trying to create!"- But this destruction can't be considered to be a restoral of balance unless you're willing to postulate that the block of marble in the joke has some Platonic ideal of an angel buried in it from the get-go, and that only by some unbalancing accident was that form concealed. Or am I totally off base? --- X SLMR 1.0 X "The Rite Stuff" 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Thelema To: Coyote 130 22 Jun 92 06:22:12 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq C1> Human personality was C1>developed as a social tool, something to smooth over C1>relations so that we could live together. However, tools C1>are also crutches, and prevent us with direct interaction C1>with the 'IS', to steal a term from Richard Bach. Let's not be too hard on crutches. When I mangled my ankle half a decade ago, it was a choice between crutches or not moving around until the bones in my ankle had knitted. And sitting in one place for five months would have left me in even worse condition than I wound up with activity merely reduced. By the same token, as my leg healed, I went from crutches to a cane, because the damn crutches were too much of a chore to lug around, and tied up hands that I could be using for other things. And when the plates and screws were taken out, I quit using the cane, even though a cane can be handy to have around in bad neighborhoods. It could be that personality was devloped as a social tool, and that when we reach a certain stage of growth or evolution, that the tool will become unnecessary. At this point, it will be discarded. But it can be harmful to discard it prematurely. ___ X SLMR 1.0 X "The Rite Stuff" 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Thelema To: Farrell Mcgovern 22 Jun 92 06:22:16 Subject: Re: POLITICAL CORRECTNES UpdReq FM> MP> So, I am not alone. This is a good thing. Our other FM> MP> weapon is knowledge of how the brainwashing works. If we can FM> MP> teach people to see when and how they're being programmed, FM> MP> perhaps they can learn to program themselves. Paradox and FM> MP> nonlinear relationships would seem to be the key to this. Any FM> MP> thoughts in this vein? -!- TBBS v2.1/NM FM> A great source of information on this are books on FM>NLP, and the works of Robert Anton Wilson. As well, a FM>healthy doze of Dr. Keys' _Subliminal Seduction_ and the FM>followup books is in order. Taken has a group, it is both a FM>profoundly scarry and profoundly interesting field! So can you see the fnords, yet? ___ X SLMR 1.0 X "The Rite Stuff" 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Thelema To: Peter Giordano 22 Jun 92 06:22:18 Subject: Peter, Peter, Pumkin Eat Rec'd UpdReq PG>case of hemmoroids, but I'm afraid to go to the surgeon to PG>have them removed. I hate knives. And as for my love Since hemmoroids are swollen blood vessels, it seems there may be some truth to what I've heard about the head stand or shoulder stand helping to correct the problem. Sends blood toward the other end... ___ X SLMR 1.0 X "The Rite Stuff" 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Thelema To: Steven Craig 22 Jun 92 06:22:20 Subject: Dmt UpdReq SC> Unfortunately, triptophane was made completely illegal a SC>few years back; I was aware it had mildly euphoric SC>properties, but had not heard of its uses in lucid dreaming SC>until the subject was brought up here on the net. Drat. Lucid dreaming can be induced by various subterfuges which keep a person in the borderland between wakefulness and deep sleep. Setting the alarm to wake you every 15-20 minutes, for example. Richard Feynman, in "Surely Joking, Mr. Feynman" describes a series of exercises he undertook, following his chain of thoughts as he fell asleep. Eventually, he was able to continue observing his mental state even after he had passed into a dream state. And I read an article describing an experiment with people who were put on a schedule of sleeping for 15-20 minutes at a time, six times a day, roughly evenly spaced. They were able to function normally on a couple hours of sleep that way. While I don't have great chunks of evidence to support it, my latest conjecture is that maybe this in-between state is actually MORE restful than deep sleep. Comments? ___ X SLMR 1.0 X "The Rite Stuff" 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Karl Lembke Area: Thelema To: Kreizenski 22 Jun 92 06:22:22 Subject: Re: POLITICAL CORRECTNES UpdReq KR>And I truly fail to understand why people get so darn mad over KR>NoGaysInCabinet... hell, I think we'd best start with getting a Gay Let me get this straight... Gays in the closet: not good; gays in the cabinet: good... :-) ___ X SLMR 1.0 X "The Rite Stuff" 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Frater Almost 24 Jun 92 09:12:56 Subject: Re: Just another run by Rec'd Sent UpdReq In a message on , Frater Almost (31:1000/1) writes: >Once again, the Highly enlightened ramblings of My Esteemed elder Brother >Tony "The Big-Guy" I. have left wondering. A new echo for Thelema-Chat or > Thelema-Tech? I don't seem to understand? I was just wondering if there might be more technical talk here if the chat stuff were moved, or if there might be a call for a technical area apart from this. (I know, I know -- put up a new topic if I want to see it!) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Thelema To: Peter Giordano 24 Jun 92 09:13:46 Subject: Re: Creation/Destruction Rec'd Sent UpdReq PG> Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The WHOLE Of The Law Non P.C. caps! ;-) PG> Not off base at all. PG> PG> I've read the book of the law and several things by PG> Crowley, and it pretty much agrees with things that PG> I've been thinking all along -- that all men are free PG> to do whatever they want, but at the same time, PG> they're responsable for their actions. Free to love PG> who they want, when they want, how they want, but PG> always with responsability and respect for those that PG> they love. It's a beautiful thing, really. I see it this way too. And the responsibility is not a moral thing, it's just nature. Adjustment, not Justice. PG> No, it aint you :) we haven't met yet, although we might one day. Sigh of relief! Some have aimed that accusation at me, right here in this echo! PG> As to how it was twisted: People are always looking for something to PG> explain to them how things are and why they are the PG> way they are, and some with look in religion, some in PG> politics, and some in thelema. And there will be The slaves shall serve. If they really want direction, they have a right to it. And it's not neccessarily abuse to do so. PG> those that sit in positions of authority that will use PG> a person's need to manipulate that person into doing PG> whatever they feel like doing. Hence the term PG> "control freaks". You'll find them in christianity, PG> in gay activisim, and in thelema. As for the details, I think it only gets bad when the manipulated feel manipulated, and the manipulator won't let go. Then it's gonna rebound on the control freak. Some others, however, with no clue, want to be told what to do. (and some of us have chores to hand out!) PG> I'll give you complete details in email if you like. PG> Suffice to say that someone who said all the right PG> things and looked good and smelled good made me PG> promise never to do anything that would violate my PG> will, and then turned around and tried to make me do PG> EVERTHING that was against my will. It was quite PG> discouraging, and hurt me a bit, but then I remembered Sounds like you actually came out of it well, in that it awakened your sense of discretion, and awareness that you make your own plans. Other people can't or won't make their own plans. I am not defending this person who tried to do this to you, just pointing out that there are probably people that would go along with it, and this person might not have known you as well as they thought. On the other hand, they may be a twisted schlemiel! ;-) PG> Anyway, thanks for listening to my ranting and raving. Not at all, I like to know what lies behind disappointment. 93! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Kreizenski 23 Jun 92 13:08:06 Subject: Re: Creation/Destruc 2/ UpdReq >I dunno what it is with me, I've "always" had certain concepts that I >assumed everyone else did. The constant creative/destructive action of >the Earth is an every-going process. Maybe the current societal >addiction to not caring how we abuse it is part of some pre-defined fate >given it. If we tear it to pieces so badly that humanity cannot survive >on it, maybe it will develop into a different type of beauty.... Curious you should say that. Alice Bailey (or whoever actually wrote those books) was predicting mass extinctions of species, general ecological destruction, etc. back in the late 20's, and stated explicitly that this was a NECESSARY part of the cycle of divine creation on this planet. This destruction is supposedly the initial effect of a surge of creative activity currently working its way down through the planes into manifestation. (She also predicted personal computers and said that they would eventually replace writing and books as the primary means of communication. She didn't call them that, of course. Her descriptions were what you might imagine from a person who had never even seen a television set. When I realized what she was talking about, it was the weirdest feeling. But I digress....) >I addressed that idea in a song that several of my tag-lines come >from... I really don't see humanity as being that different from any >other animal. Other than pursuing our own High Self, we are just part of >an evolutionary process... Maybe the whole of humanity is just here to >accomplish that change, like snakes are here to eat rats. I would say that we are part of the process even when pursuing initiation. Being initiated just puts us into a different part of the process. And most of we "initiates" are no more conscious of the role we play in that larger process than are the least of human beings. * SLMR 2.1a * Did you expect to find words of wisdom here? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Azoth 23 Jun 92 22:02:08 Subject: Re: Creation/Destruction Rec'd UpdReq >Apologies for the comm-lag; been busier'n a three wand-ed Thelemite, >what with breaking in a new compiler, and launching two new beta test >cycles on two different products, and debugging, and debugging, and... S'okay. Our BBS was down for a week and a half anyway. >You're right, of course; one ought never let such absurd reductionism get >in the way of lively conversation! Right on! >Magick does, however, provide an ever >expanding corpus of practical technique whereby the most essential symbol >sets can be explored, as it were, in situ, and the required referents be >assimilated by experience, versus the more purely abstracted peddling >of barren intellectual properties which characterize even the most >satisfactory of 'philosopical' discussions. The problem I have with that -- one that is particularly noticable in the Angelic (Enochian) system -- is that the manner in which a force manifests to us, the way in which magickal entities present themselves, and the way in which we individually interpret our experiences, are all largely dependent on our nature as individuals. And on the kind of intellectual and experiential baggage we already carry around. We abstract certain aspects from the experience, ignore others, and apply labels to those abstractions just as we do for "mundane" experience. Even at the best of times, we haven't eliminated the problem, but simply chopped out one or two levels of abstraction over what a purely intellectual philosopher uses. >.... In my experience, someone with only book-learnin' of >Magick conspicuously fails to appreciate the oh-so-tenuous boundaries between >'that which I call Reality' and 'that which I call Fantasy' which are very >much the stock-in-trade of the practicing magickian. Yes. And the paradox of believing-while-not-believing is just as hard for them to deal with. >JN> I look on these discussions on the network as a sort of magickal battle >JN> where nobody gets hurt, where we pit our thought-creations against those >JN> of other people to see what happens. Sometimes sparks fly and both >JN> ideas disappear, other times one wins out over the other, other times >JN> both remain but are changed beyond recognition, and other times yet the >JN> contestants end up changing places with one another. Incidentally, I also view this as part of the ongoing act of divine creation mentioned earlier. Many of the thoughts generated in the minds of magicians (and everyone else, for that matter) are an unconscious response to the inflow of creative energy. The exchange of thoughts between them in discussions of this sort -- when viewed en masse -- constitute the "working through" of that energy on one plane or another. >>The single most powerful technology available to a spiritual being for >>obtaining the absence of an undesired condition, is the obvious and >>difficult task of NOT CREATING IT. "It hurts when I do that." "Don't do >>that!" I will forbear to drone on about Sunyata and the Luminous Void.... >>Suffice it to say that, once the self-created content of a condition is >>realized, what remains is a much smaller Nut to crack (or plant....) >JN> While this is an interesting statement, it appears to be a non-sequitur >JN> in context. Could you re-state the connection? >The connection, if indirect, is simple: if you are for one moment lead to >acknowledge responsibility for _some_ part of your 'reality', you may be >at some length lead to accept that even _more_ of that reality is of your >own making, and so on, up to the point that, having exercised a very great >power of Choice over what is to be experienced in selecting those things >for which you are responsible and which you find also desirable, you are >left with, as a problem and a challenge, only those elements which are >really NOT of your individual making.... >.... >....knowing and Willing participation in the transformative Process >which leads from Beast to Man to God, experientially. The end, I think, >is indeed not a Void of Emptiness, but a "pure will, unassuaged of >purpose, delivered >from the lust of result". Hmm. I think I understand this, though I follow a different approach in practice. But the perceptions behind my own approach are more than my poor brain wants to deal with at the moment. I've been working on backlogged replies for hours, and it's rebelling. Perhaps next time. * SLMR 2.1a * "Legitimate government" is an oxymoron. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 23 Jun 92 22:03:10 Subject: Re: Lucifer myths UpdReq > JN> Do you mean serial incarnations of the "same" person, or a whole bunch > JN> of people incarnated at the same time, who collectively made up the > JN> god? >A number of people incarnated at more or less the same/overlapping/ongoing >time, who collectively made up each god. >A god as a colony, or hive, mind/spirit, you might say. Individuals can combine to produce an entity with its own individuality. I've been a temporary part of such entities on many occasions -- though all the other participants were (I think) not incarnate at the time. I don't see any reason why such an entity couldn't reach a scope where the term "god" would be applicable to it. * SLMR 2.1a * Five tons of wax! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Thelema To: Gerald Del Campo 23 Jun 92 22:25:16 Subject: Re: POLITICAL stupidity UpdReq >Tis' true. The "Democratic vote" as it stands today is a >joke; a token to used to fascinate those who think by doing >so they are somehow responsible for the "elective" process. > People are finally waking up to this idea. A few years >ago they'd call you a hippie and accuse you of smoking too >much pot for thinking this. >So, what do we do? As part of my reply please see my comments to Kriezinski under the subject "care bears" elsewhere in this section. A system of government appropriate to this aeon would be one in which every person's interests had to be considered in reaching any decision, not just those with money or political influence, and nobody could be forced to cooperate with a decision that was damaging to his/her person or property. (Unless his actions were damaging to someone else's person or property). The machinery for the sort of universal concensus-seeking process that would be completely appropriate isn't yet in place, but there are lots of ways we could improve things in the interim. A few random examples: (If the FBI reads these, you can bet they'll make my "subversive" file active again.) 1. Eliminate ALL government secrecy, including "national security" and military secrecy. Also eliminate all covert operations organizations. Severely restrict the ability of any government agency to intrude on the privacy of citizens -- especially the NSA, which currently monitors everything that passes through a satellite link. Make every action by a member or employee of the government a matter of public record, accessable on demand by any citizen. 2. Make all government members and employees personally responsible for damages done to individuals as the result of their actions, WHETHER OR NOT those actions were legal or in accord with regulations. No "sovereign immunity", no "eminent domain", no "presidential priviledge". Also no arbitrary confiscation of property without due process (as in DEA seizures, or IRS seizures of property.) This wouldn't get rid of the bosses, but after a while they'd sure run out of willing flunkies to do their dirty work! 3. Change one of the houses of congress so that any group of individuals could appoint someone to represent them there. Require that that house would only be considered to be "in session" when people representing 80 percent or more of the total population were physically present. Give each representative a voting weight proportional to the number of people they represent. Require that for a law to be passed, it must receive votes coming to more than 80 percent of the total voting weight present at the session. 4. This one is inherent in item 2, but worth mentioning separately: totally eliminate ALL confiscatory taxation at all levels of government. Make the amounts to pay totally a matter of individual choice. A government that can't count on being able to steal the money to pay for it's projects would be VERY sensitive to the feelings of its citizens. There's lots of other things that could be done. Be creative! * SLMR 2.1a * Did you expect to find words of wisdom here? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tau Ursa Area: Thelema To: Karl Lembke 24 Jun 92 19:55:26 Subject: Testing... 1... 2... 3.. Sent UpdReq It sure is. Sex also. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Randy Buchanan Area: Thelema To: Tony Iannotti 24 Jun 92 20:44:00 Subject: Re: Metro Action Sent UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. TI> Don't mean to butt in, but I can assure you that the Caliphate OTO TI> doesn't have any sort of proscribed book list. Many of us have Motta's TI> books, and some of us used to be Motta-types. ;-) No problemo. Thanks for the input, Tony. I pinged the guy about his sources tonight; seems the fella that was burbling about forbidden books is a member of a Lodge(?) in Nebraska (Omaha?), and we speculate that the proscription may be a purely local aberration. It's good to hear, though, that it's not Caliphate policy; one would think that Thelema has moved us a bit(!) beyond such silliness. TI> I'm a member of some of the by invitation degrees, and I know TI> of no Gnostic Baptism. Are you sure this fellow was really involved TI> with the Caliphate OTO? Maybe someone was scamming him. (though the TI> dues do get fairly hefty at higher degrees...) TI> Sounds like someone was taking him for a ride, whether or not TI> they were part of the Caliphate. ;-) You're likely correct; none of my business, really. It was all news to me, so rather than haul around some dubious information, I just thought I'd ask... Love is the law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X Company of Heaven exposed; film at eleven. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718