From: Steven Craig Area: Thelema To: Cuups 2 May 92 02:35:34 Subject: Thelema 101 UpdReq C> So, not only are we fulfilled in the relationship C> with the Divine, the C> Divine is also fulfilled by her relationship with us. How very true, and well said. C> But I don't necessarily want to move away from C> that ingrained thought C> pattern. It is the thought pattern of my parents, and their parents Quite understandable. However, I feel there is value in blowing up every thought-pattern, belief, etc. you possess, to make sure they are there for the right reasons. Otherwise, there is no sure-fire way to tell if your conviction that "X is true" comes from sincere empathy towards the statement, or just because you've been told "X is true" thousands of times in the past. One of the neatest things Crowley left us, aside from his philosophical writings, are several techniques that are wonderful for understanding the workings of one's mind, picking apart and changing various imprints, etc. I recommend perusing Liber III vel Jugorum, Liber Astarte, Liber HHH etc. (all of which should be available for download locally). In modern times, people like John Lilly and Timothy Leary have broken new ground in the field of realizing & rewiring one's mental processes on a fundamental level. 93 93/93, Steve 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Paul Hume 1 May 92 20:25:00 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq -=> Paul Hume sent a message to Vitriol on 04-30-92 12:12 <=- -=> Re: Thelema 101 <=- PH> Ha! Not necessary, I assure you. Catholics and Jews are neck and PH> neck in the guilt sweepstakes, and always have been. Hmm... considering the conection between the two, this is understandable. PH> Combing those knots out of the brain occupied fully five years of my PH> time after I became a magician, I suppose I could say the same about my knee-jerk anti-Xianity (hey, I'm in good company, anyway!), but I do so enjoy it still. Maybe when I really feel in to be getting in the way, I'll do something about it. But until then: "The Xians To The Lions!" PH> But the guilt you *can* lose, though like an ingrown toenail, it may PH> require ongoing care to insure no recurrence. Or even major surgery, I imagine. Funnily enough, despite my ancestors' conversion on the shores of the Black Sea, lo these many years ago, it really hasn't given me the tribal complex, since my father's rebellion against his background made him lapse into agnosticism for all my formative years. Makes communication tough at family reunions, tho... I can't even spell Rosh Hashana! ;-) (Or is that Resh Makhashana?) While we're on the subject, what's the correct Hebrew spelling of Chanokh/ Enoch? ChNVK? 418 ... =+=Vitriol=+= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 1 May 92 20:35:00 Subject: Re: RE: Neophite me UpdReq -=> Michelle Hass sent a message to Gerald Del Campo on 04-29-92 04:29 <=- -=> Re: RE: Neophite me <=- MH> Cliques indeed. That's the trouble...so many of us are banding MH> into little cliques, with us-against-them attitudes. Rather than MH> slamming each other, we should be building bridges between MH> Thelemic groups...exchanging info, working together, trying to MH> bring the New Current forward into the world around us. MH> When we try to build ourselves up by dissing others, we actually MH> LOWER ourselves. I agree. Too bad some of our LHP brethren and sistren (?!) don't see it that way. BTW, "A woman is just a woman..." is from Mark Twain. ... S'kan, Taku S'kans'kan 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Thelema To: Cuups 1 May 92 20:38:00 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq -=> Cuups sent a message to Steven Craig on 04-29-92 04:29 <=- -=> Thelema 101 <=- C> So, not only are we fulfilled in the relationship with the Divine, the C> Divine is also fulfilled by her relationship with us. Right! (IMO, of course.) This is confirmed by II;1 and III;1. ... Every Man And Every Woman Is A Star. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Cuups Area: Thelema To: Steven Craig 2 May 92 05:02:00 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq SC> I have less concern with such an image being used to hurt SC>people than I do with the prospect of making one's symbol SC>set "nice" and/or politically correct. Life is wonderful, SC>but it is also unspeakably horrible, and any symbol-set SC>which does not reflect this is incomplete. Good point. BTW, don't accuse me of being politically correct. I think the PC movement is a hoax perpetrated upon us by the right wing in order to foist their own PC upon us. SC> I understand your wariness over male imagery after a SC>Christian upbringing, but I think it is something that SC>needs to be gotten over to achieve a balance, both SC>magickally speaking and otherwise. I guess it's somewhat similar to affirmative action. In order to achieve a balance when an incredibly unbalanced situation exists to begin with, you have to create the unbalance in the other direction. For example, if you just laid the hourglass on its side, the sand that was on the bottom would still stay there. You have to turn the hourglass over for thirty minutes before you lay it on its side if you want the same about of sand in each side. I attend a Unitarian Universalist church, and one of struggles we are having is that many people object to the male image of god in the hymnbook, "Songs for the Celebration of Life". (I just thought I'd put that in there, I love the title.) Anyway, one of the things they have a tendency in doing to remove the objections is remove all the male references to god and replace them with neuter images, such as, replacing "Lord" with "Spirit", etc. To be fair, they do remove the few female reference in the hymnbook also, such as "Mother Earth". But 99% of the references are male. To use the hourglass reference, that would be like breaking the hourglass and removing the sand in order to achieve the balance. I feel that instead of eliminating strong male references to the deity, we must write songs, prayers, stories, etc., that also contain strong female reference to the deity. In my church, there are a few new hymns being written that are good and do refer to the Goddess. I just feel that singing or talking about love and peace and joy ad nauseum, without periodically giving a personification to those spiritual concepts, as in God or Goddess, is not as fulfilling. Just as the Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is the personification of the love between the Father and the Son (I'm using upper-case for those words out of tradition), I feel that the God/dess is the personification of the love and interdependence of all the life forms in the universe. Let's acknowledge that personification. I guess I've gotten off the Thelema topic a bit. However, I think I'm writing these things down also to set up personal mileposts that I can look at in the future to see how my spritual journey has progressed. I appreciate all the comments I'm receiving from everyone. Brightest Blessings to All! Cuups |-(* ___ X SLMR 2.0 X Against logic there is no armor like ignorance... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Cuups Area: Thelema To: Kreizenski 2 May 92 05:02:02 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq KR>Adonai. "I am that I am", Moses's answer from the Mountain. Not KR>necessarily male or female. Is that true? I very well could be wrong, but I always thought that "YHWH" was "I am that I am". Blessed be Cuups |-(* ___ X SLMR 2.0 X Jesus saves...Passes to Moses...He shoots...He scores!!! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Cuups Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 2 May 92 05:02:04 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq VI>You better cool it with the guilt trip, before they make you an honorary Jew I tell you, that is one of the worst things that has come out of my Catholic upbringing. I may joke about here, but it can really be debilitating at times. Sometimes it seems like I spend half my life apologizing. Sorry to be getting off the topic. ;-) VI>I suggest that you stop thinking of male and female meaning man and woman. Please notice my last post to Steven Craig. I tend lately to reject male references just because they are male references. Thanks for pointing this out. VI>If that works for you, OK. My interpretation is that we are VI>no less divine than that Divinity. I, too, am the son of God. And VI>I am a father of a Goddess, now eight years old. That is such an incredible way of putting it. I am also the father of a Goddess, now nine years old. Regretably, she lives in Minnesota. Maybe when she visits me this summer, we can get our two Goddesses together. Now to my comment on I;2, "The unveiling of the company of heaven". I keep going back to Christ's comment "The Kingdom of God is at hand". Heaven is all around us. The veil is not around heaven, it is front of all of our eyes. We need to unveil ourselves, as members of the company of heaven, in order to see heaven. I think that what we all need to find out for ourselves is what that heaven really is, because I believe that heaven is different for all of us. I also feel that heaven is in the interactions we have with other members of the company. I think of the phrase "the veil of our own experience". (Have you ever heard that phrase before, or is it an original one I've just made up?) Anyway, that phrase doesn't mean we need to put aside our own experiences in order to see heaven. What it does mean to me is that we shouldn't let our own experience cloud our relationships with others who have experiences of their own. Its like two polaroid lenses. You take the interacting experiences and twist and turn them. If they are turned a certain way, all is blocked out, total darkness. But if you set the polarity right, you will see things in a whole new Light. Every man and every woman is a star. Blessed be Cuups |-(* ___ X SLMR 2.0 X Against logic there is no armor like ignorance... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kreizenski Area: Thelema To: Michelle Hass 2 May 92 17:40:04 Subject: Thelema 101 UpdReq MH>> Hate to say this, being a thelemite (a Crazy Munchkin Thelemite, no MH>> less...) but Uncle Aleister really *sucked* when it came to the MH>> Woman Question. He was always very cruel to the people he became Actually, "Uncle Al" went both ways on this subject (amother others...) I have seen writings where he was bashing women for letting themselves be treated like they do. Where he is telling them to rise above the petty troubled men, and lead their own lives..... and then he goes at other times and downs them as a race. "Women are a scourge...". If I have the notion, I'll dig up some of the better writings and post them, but... Kreizenski * OLX 2.2 * Illegal allocation in Thought Table. Abort Process! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kreizenski Area: Thelema To: Cuups 3 May 92 01:14:00 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq CU>> KR>Adonai. "I am that I am", Moses's answer from the Mountain. Not CU>> KR>necessarily male or female. CU>> Is that true? I very well could be wrong, but I always thought that CU>> "YHWH" was "I am that I am". YHVH is Yod He Vau He, or the four great elements. It is the Divine Masculine, Divine Feminine, Earthly Masculine, Earthly Femine, which has been equated to the four elements, Fire, Water, Air and Earth. Jesus, or Yod He Shin Vau He YHSVH, is the pentagram, or the holy spirit risen above the four elements. Hope that helps..... Kreizenski * OLX 2.2 * Here boy.. here boy... now sit! ..Good little Crowley! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Paul Hume Area: Thelema To: Vitriol 2 May 92 21:34:56 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq Vitriol - 93. According to my copy of Gesenius (edited by Tregelles): Cheth-Nun-Vau-Kaph (sofit, ie. final Kaph). Interestingly, the actual meaning of the word is given as "initiated" or "initiating." The usual crapola from Tregelles is appended to Gesenius original text. I noticed a new, unglossed translation of Gesenius (The Hebrew And Chaldee Lexicon) in Borders last week. While it is a hefty price (whereas this edition popped up for $12 in a used bookstore), I may have to spring for it. I am getting almighty tired of editorial notes like: Whatever the Jews may have feigned, and whatever books may have falsely been ascribed to him (ie. Enoch), we may rest assured upon the authority of God in the New Testament, that he was a prophet and that he uttered the prophecy recorded in Jude 12..." Paul 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Paul Hume Area: Thelema To: Cuups 2 May 92 21:41:52 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq Cuups - 93. (With a handle like Cuups, why am I not surprised that you are a UU (g) ?) Actually, you have not drifted all that far from the Thelema topic, for when you mention the need for strong images of Deity as Male and Female, you describe a specific aspect of Thelema. The ecstatic union of opposites, or polar complements, is a pivotal concept of Thelema. Nuit and Hadit, and in a more manifest current, Therion and Babalon. Always with a third, unifying/balancing principle which arises from that union (Ra-Hoor-Khuit or more appropriatelyl Heru-Ra-Ha, and Aiwass, respectively). A trinity, but not trinitarian. ie. the three poles are not coequal, but arise dynamically, the two giving rise to the one (and the one moving inexorably to None - ie. to the Ain Soph of qabalism, the infinite, which is both 0 and without limit). The personification of the Divine within everything that lives is another crucial concept in Thelema, which partakes of pantheism in that regard (God is in everything, everything is of God). "Every man and every woman is a star," f'rinstance. In the specifically magical application of Thelema (shared with the western mystery tradition that is one of its parents), there is the constant goal of the magician's study: the union with the "Holy Guardian Angel," the God within the incarnate being. Paul PS - while I could do without the extreme right myself, it seems a bit strong to suggest that the PC nonsense is their creation, spread by nefarious agents provocateurs among the liitle children of liberal light. If there is right-wing involvement, it is more akin to the liberal left being nitwitted enough to try and fight using the weapons of the foe (repression, elevation of the concensus, control of speech) rather than keeping the principle of freedom as the guiding light. I might as well blame an opponent in physical combat for making me stupid enough to fight his way, rather than my way. "Ha! No fair! You made me box with you instead of using aikido. Your fault, etc." PRH 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Paul Hume Area: Thelema To: Cuups 2 May 92 21:53:38 Subject: Re: Thelema 101 UpdReq Cuups - I've always heard it (YHVH) explicated as "He who is." A form of the verb "to be, " in fact. I am who am (or variations) being AHIH AShR AHIH (Eheieh asher eheieh), which doesn't show up until Exodus, whereas ALHIM and YHVH are both in Genesis. ALHIM (Elohim) being the first reference to the Divine, in the first sentence of the Torah. Paul 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: Thelema To: Cuups 3 May 92 14:23:20 Subject: RE: Thelema 101 UpdReq In a message to Vitriol written on Monday, April 27, 1992 at 4:27:00, Cuups writes: Cuu> it could be possible that he did mean that that female was only Cuu> fulfilled through the male. Crowley came from a period of unabashed male Cuu> chauvinism, before the feminist movement took hold. Many women of that Cuu> time actually were proud of being the behind-the-scenes support for Cuu> their men, and did feel themselves fulfilled by their successful That's completely wrong. Crowley's time was more feminist than this one, and women made more progress and more sacrifices during that time than they have in the last few decades. Where is it that people get this strange idea that the women's movement started in the 1970's? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: Thelema To: Tim Maroney 3 May 92 15:03:34 Subject: RE: Thelema 101 UpdReq In a message to Cuups written on Sunday, May 3, 1992 at 14:23:20, Tim Maroney writes: TM> in the last few decades. Where is it that people get this strange idea TM> that the women's movement started in the 1970's? I don't know. It certainly wasn't from Victoria C. Woodhull! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718