From: JULIA PHILLIPS Area: Base of Set To: DEEP BLACK 5 Sep 93 14:11:00 Subject: Re: Membership of Pagan G UpdReq -=> Quoting Deep Black to Julia Phillips <=- DB> Hello again, Julia! From what I understand about PPPA, is is the DB> Aussie version of something called AMER; Alliance of Magical and Earth DB> Religions. Hello again Deep Black! I don't know much about AMER, although interestingly, the editor of the Pagan Alliance's newsletter asked me about it recently, and wondered whether we should look at becoming a member. Do you have an address for them? DB> As you stated (and as I understand it), it is primarily an DB> "information and networking" service. Yes it is. It was set up for a couple of reasons; firstly, nothing like it existed in Oz/NZ, and secondly, it looked like the Satanic Child Abuse scam was bout to rear its ugly head here, and I wanted to try and get something in place, just in case it did. In the event, the SCA scam never did take off here, but the PPPA seemed to fill a need, and just like Topsy, it kept growing . DB> AMER has members from all DB> religions _including_ Satanists and Christians. If those two groups DB> can find it within themselves to agree to disagree for the greater good DB> of all, I would think anyone could. Amen to that . There is an ecumenical group in Victoria, who invited a woman to join their committee, as a representative of Paganism. She is a member of the PPPA, and represents us on the committee. When she accepted, and attended the first conference, her opening lines were: "gentleman, I am honoured to be with you today, and not a little nervous. For this is the first time in hundreds of years that a member of my religion has stood before so eminent a gathering of Church leaders without her hands tied behind her back." ROFL! They saw the funny side as well, although a couple of the more geriatric members had to have the joke explained later :-) DB> Since it is not a religious DB> organization, there would be no problem at all with Setains being DB> members. As a matter of fact, I am certain you would find a few DB> Setians (such as myself) interested. Thank you for answering the question - that does put my mind at rest. Although unfortunately, for a myriad of reasons, the Setians in Sydney are not very interested in the Pagan Alliance, and have been particularly scathing of the organisation. Part of the blame for this is most definitely mine, and the PPPA's. The issue of Satanist members came up very early on, and it was made very clear by nearly all of the original members that Satanists were not to be allowed to join. So, being a democratic group, that was adopted as policy. This annoyed (particularly) Tim Hartridge and Carmel Hind, who felt that we were being elitist and non-representative. The issue came down to - were Satanists Pagans, with each side convinced of their own view, and neither wishing to give an inch :-) It was also exacerbated by a very misleading article which appeared in the national press soon after the launch of the Pagan Alliance, making us all out to be fluffy bunnies, and uptight prudes! I wasn't involved with the article, but those interviewed mentioned the Pagan Alliance, which the journalist then credited them with founding, and gave it all kinds of briefs it was never intended to hold. This gave Tim and Carmel more reason to despise the organisation, and it went from bad to worse from then on. Mainly as a result of taking part in PODS (and NEWTnet - Simon, see I mentioned NEWT ), I have definitely changed my own views about the Satanist/Pagan issue, but the general attitude amongst grass-roots Pagans still seems to be anti Satanist. I agree that the PPPA should try to represent *all* Pagans, which is why I brought up the issue of Setians. The experience I have of Setians via PODS and NEWT is of polite, articulate and thoughtful individuals (okay boys and girls - stop blushing ), and I really would like to try and bring the different paths to at least agreeing to differ in some things, and accepting that there is a common ground as well. As the PPPA is explicitly *not* concerned with people's practices, but only in providing a common umbrella when dealing with society and bureaucracy, I see that there is room for us all. But, I have discovered over the years that I am an inverse barometer where opinions are concerned , so it may all come to nowt. DB> Debate is healthy. I do think it good to always make the point that DB> historically, following the aphorism "my enemies enemy's are my DB> friends" has not been very wise. And occasionally, somewhat painful . Thank you for your kind comments, and for an interesting message. Scrolling back, I realise I have replied to things which you did not ask - so apologies for that! Obviously a few things bubbling about under the surface which tapped themselves out on the keyboard whilst I wasn't looking B*B Julia ... There is an absolute truth, but language fails miserably. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: JULIA PHILLIPS Area: Base of Set To: BALANONE 5 Sep 93 14:18:00 Subject: Re: Membership of Pagan G UpdReq -=> Quoting Balanone to Julia Phillips <=- Hello - long time no type - nice to hear from you again. Ba> The answer depends upon the question (don't you know): Sigh Ba> Is the PPPA a religious organization (ie: one which espouses, Ba> fosters, and furthers a religion) or is it perhaps an Ba> organization of those who are themselves religious? Definitely the latter. Actually, one of Tim's criticisms was that we did not ask members to provide us with evidence of religious practices, or ask for details of rituals etc performed. My view is that the PPPA is solely an organisation for distributing information and for networking. Individual members and regions can certainly get together and do whatever they want, but as individuals, not as "The Pagan Alliance". For the same reason, I've always believed it would be a mistake for the PPPA to hold gatherings or rituals - its membership is too diverse, and I think it would be moving into a dangerous area, by giving "authority" to a particular style or practice. I could just be paranoid on this one though. Ba> Example: AMER (Alliance of Magical and Earth Religions) is a Ba> network of people many of whom are religious, and quite a few Ba> Setians (myself included) hold membership in that organization. Deep Black mentioned AMER - it sounds very interesting. Ba> However, since the Temple of Set is a religious organization Ba> where 1) the religion is very specific, and 2) the religion is in Ba> opposition to most other religions, then membership in a Ba> *religious* organization is contraindicated. Example: since the Ba> TOS does not accept the existence of an Earth Mother (and does Ba> not accept an excuse that she's another image of Set since that's Ba> patently false), no Setian could belong to an organization that Ba> worships an Earth Mother. Repeat: The organization whose Ba> purpose, goal, and activity is to worship an Earth Mother is Ba> incompatible. But membership in an organization formed for other Ba> reasons (such as networking and communication), some of whose Ba> members happened to believe in and worship an Earth Mother, would Ba> not automatically be incompatible. Ba> Have I confused the issue enough? :-) Not at all - as ever, you are clear, concise, witty and intelligent. In fact, you are so much like me, it's uncanny Ba> ... This is the sort of English up with which we should not have to Ba> put. And thank you for posting this tagline! I lost my tagline file, and this was one of my favourites :-) B*B Julia ... "God, to me, it seems, is a verb not a noun, proper or improper" ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: JULIA PHILLIPS Area: Base of Set To: MICHAEL AQUINO 5 Sep 93 14:35:00 Subject: Re: Membership of Pagan G UpdReq -=> Quoting Michael Aquino to Julia Phillips <=- Hello, and thanks for your (very complete!) reply. MA> Per the Temple of Set's By-Laws, a Setian (past our introductory I* MA> level of membership) may not be a member of another primarily religious MA> institution, i.e. another church, synagogue, mosque, coven, etc. This MA> is based on the principle that the Setian religion is uniquely correct MA> and exclusive - not just one of a number of equally-valid alternative MA> points of view. Thank you - I understand the principle, and your reasons for expecting Setians to refrain from membership of other religious organisations. MA> A Setian can be an individual member of a secular or social group, MA> such as the Pan Pacific Pagan Alliance, with no problem. The PPPA is MA> not itself a religion. No, and I have always tried to ensure that it attempts no interference with the religious beliefs or practices of its members. Although, the membership form does include a request that members affirm belief in divinity - it does not have to be named, or identified. MA> Here in the United States, for example, my wife MA> Lilith and I are both members of the Alliance of Magical and Earth MA> Religions (AMER), a civil-rights activist organization with members MA> from many different religions (including pagan ones). Both Deep Black and Balanone mentioned AMER, and I have been asked whether it might be a good idea for the Pagan Alliance to enquire about membership. MA> The Temple of Set itself is prohibited by its By-Laws from being an MA> organizational member of any other organization or group of MA> organizations. The PPPA is not prohibited by its by-laws from being an organisational member of another organisation (mainly because it doesn't have any by-laws ), but I agree 100% with the principle. The PPPA is affiliated with the Pagan Federation, and has a networking arrangement with the Covenant of the Goddess, but both associations are for the purpose of disseminating information internationally, and providing formal links between Pagans in different countries. B*B Julia ... There is an absolute truth, but language fails miserably. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: JULIA PHILLIPS Area: Base of Set To: HAEGLWULF 5 Sep 93 14:39:00 Subject: the use of runes UpdReq -=> Quoting Haeglwulf to Albert Saperstein <=- AS> and blue; I discreetly showed my pistol to this young idiot Ha> ad nauseum. Ha> I would believe, sir, that you have a case of "judging a book by its Ha> symbol". For example, I am a six-two, blonde-haired-blue-eyed Ha> barbarian. I wear Doc's, jeans, am always armed, and have an attitude. Ha> At home, above my altar is a runic circle surrounding your much-hated Ha> "wolf rune" (gibor). Other personal symbols include the swastika and Ha> the Hagal rune (cum Haeglwulf), both popular doing the Third Reich. Ha> I enjoy NON, Death in June, Sol Invictus, Current 93, et al, and agree Ha> and disagree with various aspects of their politics. Ha> Does this make me a Nazi? Ha> Oh, by the way, I'm also a fag. Damn! You had my interest till this line . Oh well, back to the 6'2" hazel-eyed, mousy-haired barbarian, Fearless FerretFace. B*B Julia ... What has been understood no longer exists (Eluard) ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Julia Phillips 6 Sep 93 02:56:26 Subject: Haeglwulf Sent UpdReq Don't let his present gender bias diminish your interest, sweetheart... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: All 6 Sep 93 17:44:20 Subject: Excremeditational Reading Sent UpdReq There's a new trash book out smearing EVERYBODY, get a pal to shoplift it and stick it in your bathroom for guests, or send it to Mom and Dad with your friends' names underlined in red. It's called RAISING HELL, Avon paperback with lurid cover, by one Michael Newton, an amateur carnographer whose previous literary efforts include HUNTING HUMANS 1 & 2. This bozo would be writing for TRUE or ARGOSY if they were still around. The research that went into this coliform infested mess probably took all of a Sunday afternoon with Maury Terry and that Raschke or whatever his name is. A certain litigation happy bibliophiliac occult society is almost certain to make this one as rare as a hardcover copy of GHOST STORY, which at least had some commendable entertainment value beyond the usual SCHADENFREUDE of watching some cretinous lout set himself up for the old PROCESS server... This one gets the nod for "lowest common denominator" on the bovine fecal matter list. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Base of Set To: Neuromancer 4 Sep 93 23:26:00 Subject: RE-Wewelsberg UpdReq > I believe you are in error as to the rune described by Albert. I'm not > too familiar with the Armanic Futhork, but the rune described by Albert > "Sort of an 'H' would be Hagalaz. The Gibo rune (which I believe is the > same as the Gibor you mention) is symbolized by an 'X'. This is only true in the traditional Futharks though. The Armanen is a bit different. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: Base of Set To: Albert Saperstein 4 Sep 93 01:08:02 Subject: Astrum Argenteum (A.'.A.'.) Rec'd UpdReq 93 albert, AS> In my humble opinion, Motta exemplified the so-called AS> "Black Brother" tendency, but that doesn't preclude AS> lineage as far as I know. regardless of anything else one could say about motta, it's my understanding that motta's lineage is legit. (even people who couldn't stand motta have said this aobut him.) however, according to dr. aquino, there is currently no a.a. in existence. (at least in terms of any actual lineage, etc.) i'm hoping to hear back from him as to how he came across his info., and whether he has heard the 'lineage stuff' that i've heard of, etc. in actuality, 'pedigree's' were never something that i've really concerned myself about. i think that if one is aligned with a particular current, 'pedigree' really doesn't matter. after all, it's the work that counts. 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718