From: Shadowraith Area: Base of Set To: Kevin Delong 24 Aug 93 09:58:30 Subject: Re: Hmmm... UpdReq THANK YOU! You have no idea how long I have waited to hear something back from that letter. Shadowraith 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Shadowraith Area: Base of Set To: Grendel Grettisson 24 Aug 93 10:14:44 Subject: Re: Wewelsberg UpdReq Perhaps he means the Swastika.. Which in the norse religion is Thor's Hammer, is it not? I've also seen various forms of the Swastika in many other religions.. HIndu, American Indian, Buddhism, to name a few.. I certainly don't think Hitler originated the symbol, but I feel he did do much harm to the idea of a once useful symbol (Not to say it's no longer just as useful, but that it is rarely used..) Shadowraith 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Deep Black Area: Base of Set To: Sucellos 25 Aug 93 07:47:00 Subject: Re: Are You Out There UpdReq Su> Why don't we get some simutanious stuff going on. Su> What ae you workng on right now. At the moment I am preoccupied with some things mundane. Perhaps in the not too distant future! I did want to ask you what you thought of the two ring designs. I think you have seen both, right? The one based on the Seal is not too hard to imagine, but what does the other one look like? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rakshasa Area: Base of Set To: Sucellos 25 Aug 93 08:33:00 Subject: Re: Hi Again! UpdReq I can identify with everything you said... like you, my present course of Xeper has not really been taking place in Ritual Chambers, but in the mundane world. Unlike you, I've not yet found a suitable job, so that quest has been taking up most of my time. I think you have to get your mundane affairs in some semblance of order _before_ you can start worrying about magick and ritual (at least that's been my experience). Since _Xeper_ is an unnatural process, it's important that things in the natural (mundane) realm be taken care of first. I look at it like Maslow did with his famous "hierarchy of needs." He considered self-actualization (what I would call _Xeper_) the pinnacle of the pyramid, below the need for basics (food, clothing, shelter) and not so basics (love, support). One must deal with the base of the pyramid before climbing to the top. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Phug Area: Base of Set To: Sucellos 25 Aug 93 18:36:00 Subject: Re: Are You Out There UpdReq Su> I am sorry about my tardiness in my communication. I have found new Su> employment and I haven't had much time to get into cyber space. No apology necessary. I understand that people have lives. Su> barrage of unfamiliar terminology. Here I will try to clearify. Thank you. Su> ~ka- A double of one's desire. An impersonal force wich remains to Su> recive offerings of one's ancestors. A created model of one's self Su> used to act upon the Objective Universein direct proportion to the Su> passion and precision of it's creator. Su> So knowing this, do ya want to work with `ka` forms and see what we Su> come up with? Again I leave the target or effect of the experement Su> up to you. Now, is 'ka' an actual physical force, let's say the measureable electric force that each human posesses, or is it an idealized mental image? Either way, I wouldn't mind trying something new. You'd have to hold my hand, though. I am totally ignorant on the subject. Phug 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: Base of Set To: Laylah Gait 25 Aug 93 03:25:48 Subject: Re: Dual Membership -- O.T.O. and ToS UpdReq 93 laylah, the only OTO body currently active in colorado is in Crestone. the address is : Sipapu Camp c/o D. Floyd P.O. Box 223 Crestone, CO 81131 allow some time for reply. i don't know the particular people at this camp, but turnaround time in replying to letters can sometimes be a bit slow. howver, if you don't hear back in a few months, then either post something here again, or if you get the Thelema echo, that would even be a better place to post it. 93, ----kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Kayla Block Area: Base of Set To: Albert Saperstein 25 Aug 93 03:30:56 Subject: Dual Membership -- O.T.O. and ToS Rec'd UpdReq 93 albert, AS> As well as I understand it, OTO is a "horizontal", or AS> social organization, AA is "vertical", each one teach AS> one, you know only your initiator and the one you AS> initiate. AA is explicitly described as "the flaming not too sure what you mean by 'horizontal', though i think i understand what you mena by 'vertical'. however, i'm not too sure what this is in reference to. any elaborations? 93, ---kayla 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 25 Aug 93 18:40:00 Subject: Mezlim, DM Kraig and a question UpdReq > Grendel -- I assume you cross-posted this here for confirmation? No, I'm quite informed about it. I posted it here so you would know people were asking. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: Base of Set To: Albert Saperstein 25 Aug 93 18:41:00 Subject: Mezlim, DM Kraig and a question Rec'd UpdReq > A.K.A. Stephen Flowers Among other things. So? Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Leonard Wong Area: Base of Set To: All 21 Aug 93 15:10:12 Subject: Message Base UpdReq Every seems to be here. So what to you peoples talk about? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Haeglwulf Area: Base of Set To: Albert Saperstein 25 Aug 93 12:58:48 Subject: Re: Wewelsberg Rec'd UpdReq -=> Quoting Albert Saperstein to Grendel Grettisson <=- Greetings. AS> The "Wolf Rune" looks like an "N" or a backwards "N" with a single AS> vertical line through the middle. I have seen some of the public AS> material. The reference to the Ahnenerbe unsettles me somewhat, and AS> this Wewelsberg thing... 1500 slave laborers died building Wewelsberg. I believe the Wolf rune you mentioned is Gibor, the G rune from the futhork used by the Armanen Orden (Guido von List). It's meanings center on the concept of gift-giving/exchange and union. Compare with the Alchemical Marriage or the Art trump. Also can wed man to God, the achievement of cosmic consciousness and the return thereof. AS> The Wolf Rune is used by persons professing to be of the Order of the AS> Trapezoid. I'm not clear on that organization's present relationship AS> to the Temple of Set. The Wolf Rune is also the symbol of Christian AS> Identity/Aryan Nations Church in Hayden Lake, Idaho. AS> Any further clarification you could provide would be greatly AS> appreciated. It is also used by the music groups NON and Death in June. It is impossible to generalize about those of us who employ runic and/or germanic consciousness, based simply on the symbols we use. There are various shifts and twists of meaning that can make a world of difference in personal philosophy. The swastika comes to mind as another example. Put simply, a symbol means different things to dif- ferent people. Just because one group may define that symbol in a particular fashion, doesn't mean all who use it define it in such terms. Bear in mind that there are, admittedly, areas of consensus. However, often times it's is the shade of difference that is important, and upon which one makes his final judgement. As for Gibor, from what I've read of CI/AN literature, they (CI) see it as representing the Covenant between Yaweh and Abraham, which they feel the white, indo-european, race is the successor to, and that North America is the "Promised Land". To them, Gibor represents the struggle to liberate America from undesireable elements, the "cleansing", if you will, and the manifestation of "white, God given" consciousness. Regardless of the historical and philosophical inaccuracy of CI/AN theology, I think the difference between it and OoTR and ToS becomes rather apparent. I am not a member of either, nor do I claim to represent their views (or that of the CI/AN either). I base my opinions on what I've read, and on my own "runic" understanding. I do think the ToS should issue a final statement, and then the entire thing dropped, for good. There are those out there who ignorantly overreact to any usage of germanic symbology. The Third Reich didn't invent them, they borrowed and warped them. I have found the following files to be greatly informative of views and opinions of Aquino, Flowers (Thorsson), and the ToS and the OoTr. All can be downloaded from Purgatory at 918.835.2429. nazitrap.zip :infamous "ToS is nazi" article; the start of it all. aquino.rsp :Dr. Aquino's resonse to above. *Very* informative. balanone.rsp :Balanone's response to above. Also informative. otrapz.set :Order of the Trapezoid introductory statement. Written by Drs. Aquino and Flowers. Everything you need to know about the OoTr is in there. Haeglwulf 93! ... Alright, who taught Hoernir how to play darts? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Kayla Block 26 Aug 93 09:09:56 Subject: Dual Membership -- O.T.O. and ToS Sent UpdReq Well, one rule of thumb going WAYY back in time is to beware of anyone who claims to be a Rosicrucian. The real ones don't announce themselves. For a good history of that movement you should pick up Frances Yates' THE ROSICRUCIAN ENLIGHTENMENT, she is the best source for the historical stuff. I can only speak as a student and an outside observer. It is my understanding that OTO confers initiation; that is to say, the initiate grows into the degree. Their initiatory system seems to activate the chakras in a certain sequence toward the presumed end of fully illuminating the psychic body. This is similar to, but distinct from, certain Eastern traditions which utilize a technique known as "shaktipat", a term which describes the transmission of kundalini energy directly from teacher to student by means of touch, word, or gesture. AA, on the other hand, CONFIRMS initiation. The degrees granted by AA confirm that the aspirant has, indeed, fully attained the attributes of that degree. Another distinction is that OTO is VERY public, AA is VERY private. It would be a very serious breach of decorum to discuss one's affiliation with AA, given the nature of the claims made about this body; whereas, OTO can and should do zany public things like Masses and feasts and riding around town in little go-carts and such... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Grendel Grettisson 26 Aug 93 09:27:40 Subject: Mezlim, DM Kraig and a question Sent UpdReq No big deal, just another alias for the inquirer. I appreciate Flowers/Thorsson making the List book available to the general English limited public, myself. List was a crackpot, but an interesting crackpot, and a fun read. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Haeglwulf 26 Aug 93 09:34:12 Subject: Re: Wewelsberg Sent UpdReq Many thanks for shedding light on this for me. Please keep this post available here, I think it will go a long way toward dispelling some myths. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Albert Saperstein Area: Base of Set To: Haeglwulf 26 Aug 93 17:14:34 Subject: NON, Death In June Sent UpdReq By the by, NON isn't really a band, it's a Nazi by the name of Boyd Rice. This creep IS a Nazi, hands out their literature, shows up in their uniforms, isn't playing a game with it. He has the unmitigated gall to invoke the (to my mind) holy name of Gabriele D'Annunzio while peddling this Nazi swill. DEATH IN JUNE are close associates of his, "fellow travelers" so to speak, but they do seem to have some musical ability. I frequently refer to them as "the only Nazi band that matters", which is, I think, an accurate description. "The snake bites his tail, and he sees stars..." 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718