From: Bobby Meizer Area: Base of Set To: Astral Invader 25 Apr 92 10:41:08 Subject: RE: Re: What is Satanism? UpdReq In a message to Balanone written on Friday, April 24, 1992 at 14:54:00, Astral Invader writes: AI> There's definetely not a Setian stereotype....That's for sure!!.. Actually there IS a Setian stereotype (though of course like all stereotypes it provides an incomplete picture), one of an arrogant, know-it-all elitist who considers all disagreement as a personal attack. Unfortunately, a few Setians I've interacted with did their best to exemplify this stereotype. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: The Sinistar 26 Apr 92 13:07:56 Subject: Re: What is Satanism? (1 of 2) Sent UpdReq On April 19, you responded to my April 18 message to Lady Byron, "What is Satanism? (1 of 2)": . DV > To me, Setianism is only the latest in a series of new religions that Satanism has given birth to, or helped give birth to. . Si > Maybe given RE-birth to, but Setianism was around back in ancient Egypt. There was a Temple of Set then, as there is now. .I regard today's ToS as a new religion with ancient Egyptian roots, as well as modern Satanic roots. There's no way today's ToS could possibly be an exact reconstruction of the pre-Osirian religion of Set, given that all we know about the latter is derived from archeological records; there's no direct historical link. Besides, we live in a completely different culture. Modern Setianism includes elements of modern Satanism which would simply have been irrelevant back then. .Similarly, Wicca isn't really "the Old Religion", though it does revive a lot of ancient concepts. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Dirge 26 Apr 92 13:51:00 Subject: Temple of the Vampire Sent UpdReq On April 18, you wrote a message to All titled "ORDER OF THE VAMPIRE": . D > Does anybody know anything about the Order of the Vampire/Temple of Ur which has been advertising in Black Flame etc. lately? .Not to be confused with the Temple of Set's Order of the Vampyre.... . D > Their ad says "Vampires Exist-- Join Us!" I'd be interested in getting input from anybody who's forked over the $100 for the full information packet. Does it seem worth it? Thanks. .Somehow, I get the feeling it's probably a ripoff.... .Be that as it may, it does arouse my curiosity. Perhaps a bunch of us could chip in? I would be willing to pay $10 for the information, if there are at least nine other people on this echo who are willing to pay $10 for it. Is there anyone on this echo we all know and trust well enough to take up a collection? (There are some people here with access to free photocopying.) .Charles Nemo, are you reading this? Are you interested? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 26 Apr 92 16:57:14 Subject: Temple of the Vampire Rec'd Sent UpdReq DV> Be that as it may, it does arouse my curiosity. Perhaps a bunch of DV> us could chip in? I would be willing to pay $10 for the DV> information, if there are at least nine other people on this echo DV> who are willing to pay $10 for it. Is there anyone on this echo we DV> all know and trust well enough to take up a collection? (There are DV> some people here with access to free photocopying.) DV> . DV> Charles Nemo, are you reading this? Are you interested? Sure, I'll go for it. Do you me to do the collection, or do you or someone else want to do it? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Bobby Meizer 26 Apr 92 17:16:38 Subject: Arrogant know-it-alls Sent UpdReq On April 25, you wrote to Astral Invader "RE: Re: What is Satanism?": . BM > Actually there IS a Setian stereotype (though of course like all stereotypes it provides an incomplete picture), one of an arrogant, know-it-all elitist who considers all disagreement as a personal attack. Unfortunately, a few Setians I've interacted with did their best to exemplify this stereotype. .As someone who has previously commented on this stereotype, I'd like to add some further observations. It's my impression that Setians tend to be in some ways more arrogant, but in other ways *less* arrogant, than other types of occultists. It depends on whom they're talking to. I think people in general, of whatever persuasion, tend to be arrogant when talking to people whose viewpoint they fundamentally don't understand, and tend to take personally any strong disagreement expressed in terms they don't understand. .For example, most of the Setians on this echo are ex-evangelical Christians. Hence, a fundamentalist yelling "You're all going to hell" doesn't bother most Setians to nearly the degree that it would bother, say, your average Wiccan. Hence the amazing degree of patience that most of the folks on this echo have toward Pale Rider, Jeff Mccord, and the like. In the PAGAN or WICCA echo, someone like Pale Rider would be told in no uncertain terms to get lost. .On the other hand, the ex-evangelical Christian background of most Setians also means they tend to come from a more politically conservative background than most other occultists. Hence Setians tend to be *more* bothered by strongly-worded criticism from a left-wing viewpoint. It's my impression that most Setians, more so than most other types of occultists, basically do not understand where left-wingers are coming from. They may think they understand the basic concepts, but they have little or no familiarity with the ramifications. Hence, when confronted with discussion of things like covert or unconscious racism, all they can think is "Aaak! Someone's insulting me!" The judgment that discussion of covert racism is somehow more insulting than "You're all going to hell" is a subjective reaction based on most Setians' intimate familiarity with the latter, vs. lack of understanding of the former. .I likewise note the extreme difficulty some individuals are having coping with the "Freethinkers don't censor" debate over in NIGHT_SIDE. (Incidentally, I happen *not* to be in full agreement with you and Tim on this issue, about which I have mixed feelings. Yet I note that, as usual, your opponents seem to be freaking out.) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Base of Set To: Linda Beebe 16 Apr 92 00:23:08 Subject: Re: PeThose damn Masons. UpdReq magick without the mystery mystery without the magick either/or neither/nor secret that has been forgotten secret that is not a secret 93 jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * If it works, rip it apart and find out why! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 22 Apr 92 23:33:10 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq quoting pale rider to jonathon PR> Allah is not Jehovah. I am apart of Christianity, not some Unity doctrine but Allah claimed that he was god Mohammed used the ot prophecy to prove such PR>am a Christian, not a cultist. I go strictly by the Word PR>of God, the Holy Bible. Anyone can say that they are God having slammed half a dozen different sects, all of whom claim a historical exegesis for their interpretations of the bible, and claim to go strictly by the the word of god, the holy bible, what makes you think that your cult is the cult to follow? PR>what he says, besides he was born in Enid, Oklahoma. I PR>don't think that Jesus would come back by being born in then why accept jesus, since he was born in a place as bleak, and as much in the backwash of palestine as enid is in oklahoma? furthermore, if you had read your bible, you would know that jesus is supposed to come back again & again. 93 jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * On a clear disk you can seek forever 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 16 Apr 92 00:36:12 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq quoting ammond shadowcraft to pale rider AS>In a message to Jonathon <04-06-92 10:06> Pale Rider wrote: AS>PR> are from the new dispensation, so the laws in the New Testament come AS> Then are you a Dispensationalist? Why not? Got a AS>Schoefield Bible?? B^) i think he is a pseudo-dispensationalist 93 jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 22 Apr 92 23:37:22 Subject: satan UpdReq quoting jeff mccord to all JM> In the Bible, the Word of God, satan is defeated. Now, JM>why do satanists insist on thinking that satan will win? JM>He is already defeated by the blood of Jesus. DO you all JM>have a bible that says the opposite? the only true satanist << by your referential marks >> you will find will be those who have accepted jesus the christ of nazereth as their own personal saviour, and worship the biblical satan as god. as to why they would go with that part of the xian mythos, ask somebody who is such. if you think that what is discussed here is that varient, then you are on the wrong boat. to answer your last question, do we have a bible that states the opposite. the answer in brief, is that neither we, nor the xian bible have anything to state one version of events/reality has any more validity than any other version. btw, the xian satan was not defeated by the biblical diety, merely cast out of that diety's realm. Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * Blame San Andreas - its all his fault. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 22 Apr 92 20:25:26 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS UpdReq quoting pale rider to ttriple six PR>TS> PR> Look in Magick by Aleister Crowley pages 217, 219, 220, and PR>TS> PR> 222. Aleister Crowley noted that "the hightest spiritual PR>TS> working" PR>TS> PR> required the sacrifice of a male child. PR>TS> PR>TS> Did you read the footnote, PR? PR> Nope, I don't have the book. don't you think you ought to read this book before you start misconstruing what it says? < but then since you have yet to read your own sacred text you probably don't feel you ought to read that either. >> Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * All places are in walking distance, if you have the time 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 22 Apr 92 23:48:28 Subject: Re: satan UpdReq quoting jeff mccord to markie chao ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ JM>See that is our diffrences... I believe in THE God... you believe in no you believe in a diety a diety swiped from zorastrianism by judaism which was swiped by judaism for xians and in turn wqas swiped for the glory of ALLAH JM>God, or if you do they are made up of your own creation. I just like you do with yours JM>have experienced Jesus living in my heart. I know it is JM>true. The word of God is all I need to know to realize just like i have achieved the knowledge & conversation of my HGA. JM>their is a God. Even demons and satan himself know that JM>God is the ultimate ruler. Demons shiver at Jesus' name, lucifer did not/does not shiver at such << and that is just for starters, and only working with the xian pantheion. the xian dieties, as a rule, wouldn't last against most other demi-dieties, such as Loki. JM>for they believe in Him... but of course, they are have you asked HVHY if there is a belief in YHVH recently, or ever?? JM>against him... This is how I know. I encourage you to put the xian diety is totally irrelevent especially in a pantheon such as that of the !kung JM>all the worldy "stuff" aside and for your self ask Jesus JM>to help you out, and see what happens. I do not want to isn't the result here the same as that of asking your own true self the same? JM>preach to you, and I am not trying to stuff this down your interesting approach of non-preaching you have here JM>throat... by making assumptions that are so far off the mark , and you feel that way. suppose i were to drop a note in a xian echo asking why the drank blood & killed people on a weekly basis. and also suggesting that such would displease the one true god: Zorastor would you not consider that preaching? Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * The only thing "Holy' about any book is the reader. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Base of Set To: Astral Invader 22 Apr 92 23:17:30 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS UpdReq quoting astral invader to pale rider AI>It sort of amuses me to think of all the blood strewn AI>fields in your Religious history, and to see you picking AI>on something like this.... well, he has to find something to try to wash that blood away with Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * Ensign Pillsbury? He's bread, Jim. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nrrys Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 25 Apr 92 00:00:16 Subject: Re: Visibility UpdReq N> There was an N> interesting thread over in Magicknet where people were saying that the N> Discordian attitude that it is OK (or even a necessary duty) to mess N> with people's heads is fascist. BA> My memory of that thread differs from yours. I looked upon BA> it as an attempt to differentiate a) responsible and BA> progressive / constructive Discordianism on one hand (a BA> practice which has its benefits) from b) irresponsible and BA> childish / destructive Discordianism. I don't remember that distinction actually being made. I wish I have more time to spend on the echos. I probably would have tried to pursue that point... BA>What do you mean by an ethical code, or ethical rules? I BA>don't think we have any rules of behavior written down in a BA>book, if that's what you mean. Not what I meant! BA>But yes, we have examined the BA>types of behaviors we consider acceptable for ourselves, and BA>we work to live up to (or exceed, if we can) our own standards. If one has set one's standards properly, to strive to exceed them is by definition perfectionism, and NOT constructive. If someone feels this necessity, I think it would be more useful to revise the standards? I don't believe one's standards should be static... May you never thirst! NRRYS ___ X OLX 2.1 TD X The Uncle Fester & Keith Moon School of Party. '73 Grad 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nrrys Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 25 Apr 92 00:00:18 Subject: What is Satanism? Rec'd UpdReq N>Hmm... I thought that Setians believe in the literal existance of Set? DV>I'm not a Setian. I knew that! But I believe that you were talking about Satanists in general. Or do you not consider Setians to be Satanists? DV>In order to work well with the god-form of Satan, one must do a DV>certain amount of reclaiming/re-interpretation. (It helps to read DV>books like Jules Michelet's SATANISM AND WITCHCRAFT, or Bernard DV>Shaw's THE DEVIL'S DISCIPLE, or Milton's PARADISE LOST.) Satan's DV>attributes of pride, strength, and independent thought must be seen DV>as positive rather than negative. This, and the rest of your message, is all good stuff to think about. Thanks! Thou art goddess! NRRYS ___ X OLX 2.1 TD X I feel like a three-eyed man in the kingdom of the blind. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nrrys Area: Base of Set To: Lady Byron 25 Apr 92 00:00:20 Subject: What is Satanism? UpdReq LB>Well, we're all different. Crowley is recognized as the LB>Magus of the Aeon of Har-Wer, followed by LaVey and the Age LB>of Satan. Dr. Aquino is now the recognized Magus of the LB>Aeon of Set. Crowley's aeon is important from the LB>standpoint of seeing how the aeons have evolved. There is LB>always something to learn from each aeon. Besides, he was LB>a downright interesting character! I just read through _Liber Al_ again. It's starting to not look like total gibberish to me. Is that good or bad? ;^) May you never thirst! NRRYS ___ X OLX 2.1 TD X I tried jello wrestling once... The jello won! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lady Byron Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 25 Apr 92 10:32:16 Subject: Liber Al UpdReq N> I just read through _Liber Al_ again. It's starting N> to not look like total N> gibberish to me. Is that good or bad? ;^) Well, that's a good question. It's kind of like gibberish that makes sense! The Aeon of Har-Wer, as you may have noticed, was extremely chaotic and confusing. There are reasons for this that I am discovering, and it is becoming clearer. Notice how much stress was put on egocentricity and sex (the Whore of Babylon), and see how that all flowed so nicely into LaVey's later work. You will see these themes become more and more refined. Lady Byron :)= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lady Byron Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 25 Apr 92 13:05:46 Subject: Re: satan UpdReq JM> Well, I haven't heard a satanist JM> specifically say that - but why JM> would you all want to serve a god that is not JM> victorious? Jesus is You might want to remember that this "battle" between Satan and God/Jesus only occurs in the Christian mythos. There are many, many other religions out there. Satanism does not work within the Christian mythology. We do not see any "final battle" coming -- Satan, to me, represents individuality and egocentricity. This is not the same as sin. It would, indeed, be silly to "follow" a god that we knew was going to "lose" in the end. But this is only a Christian story, and has nothing to do with true Satanism. Lady Byron :)= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lady Byron Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 25 Apr 92 13:13:40 Subject: Re: non-Christians not allowed! UpdReq JM> Okay... I understand what you are saying... JM> just wait and see; when we all die, we can finally JM> find out the whole truth, fair? Let's just hope, in JM> your case, that God isn't ture... of course, I I truly hope so, as well. If there is a god out there that is truly the total asshole that Christians describe, I would rather burn in your mythological hell. JM> Don't mean to sound hostile! heeheh And it is this kind of hostility that turns me and other intelligent people off from Christianity. It's always your way or nothing. It's truly sad your god didn't gift you with a mind of your own. But then, that's why he got pissed at Eve, eh? She began to THINK! Lady Byron 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Blake Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 26 Apr 92 04:26:10 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS UpdReq quoting pale rider to FRC PR> From scattered information that I read in the past, PR>probably atleast a year ago. I thought that it was common PR>knowledge how evil Aleister Crowley was. you obviously were reading the 1920's equivelent of the national enquired or the Global Star PR>You mean that you don't think that he indulged in illegal PR>activities like sacrifices? cite your source, and don't throw that bit about him having sacrificed 240 odd male children in one year << if you READ the footnotes to that you'd know exactly what he meant >> 93 jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * We all live in a yellow subroutine. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Blake Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 26 Apr 92 04:26:12 Subject: Re: satan UpdReq =========================================================================== BBS: Mysteria Date: 04-20-92 (23:45) Number: 11 From: PALE RIDER Refer#: 3 To: JEFF MCCORD Recvd: NO PR> Hi Jeff, PR>that know the Bible. You better hope that you can PR>interpret the Bible correctly. If you don't watch it, you do you mean according to the way that you interpret it, or somebody, like say the Holy Roman Catholic Church does? PR>are going to get posts on supposed contradicts. If you things that you have yet to address. Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * PCjr LIVES! Not well, maybe, but alive in spite of IBM. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Blake Area: Base of Set To: Frater Almost 26 Apr 92 04:26:14 Subject: Re: satan Rec'd UpdReq Date: 04-21-92 (03:31) Number: 13 From: FRATER ALMOST Refer#: 11 To: JEFF MCCORD Recvd: NO ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ FA>you do not. Take heed lest you bear false witness and FA>ammend the Scriptures to your own WHim. Pax. 93 revelations 22:19 Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * Time does not confirm a void act 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Blake Area: Base of Set To: Astral Invader 26 Apr 92 04:26:16 Subject: Re: satan UpdReq Date: 04-21-92 (14:50) Number: 30 From: ASTRAL INVADER Refer#: 23 To: JEFF MCCORD Recvd: NO ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ AI>JM> In Luke 6:27, "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do AI>Well I'm looking at the same verse in my Reference Bible, and can find no AI>evidence that he is speaking of strictly 'man' when he the greek doesn't limit it to humans either. Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * I'm jointing the Procrastinators club --- soon 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Blake Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 26 Apr 92 04:26:18 Subject: Re: satan UpdReq Date: 04-21-92 (16:31) Number: 35 From: JEFF MCCORD Refer#: 34 To: FRATER ALMOST Recvd: NO ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ JM> In Mark 16:15, Jesus states: "Go into all the world and JM>preach the good news to all creation..." - is this not JM>proof that Jesus gives us authority to "preach" for JM>Christ. True, I am not speaking directly Christ's words up JM>above good, you preached your sermon. if you stay wyou will discover the error of your ways, and totaly give up that egocentric megalomaniac that you claim to adore/adhere to. JM>when I said "Jesus does not love Satan..." BUT, in the Word, it says JM>GOD HATES SIN.... right? And Satan is the creator of sin, right? Jesus wrong: your megalomaniac is the creator of sin reason: it arbitrarily states what a sin is. no rational definition of same JM>every temptation - and Jesus beat satan - he passed all JM>the temptations without giving in. Jesus did this for an if you mean those temptations in the dessert, they were more akin to initition rites, than anything else. JM>example to us. He could have stopped his crucifixion, but JM>He died for us, so that we may have our sins forgiven and live in Him. assuming he was crucifed ---- and he probably was not on that cross at gethsemane. Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * He who uses bad language is a schmuck. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Blake Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 26 Apr 92 04:26:20 Subject: Re: satan UpdReq Date: 04-21-92 (16:34) Number: 36 From: JEFF MCCORD Refer#: 35 To: ASTRAL INVADER Recvd: NO ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ JM> True, the Word of God is sometimes misunderstood... but be real, JM>why would God command us to love satan? Satan is the creator of evil - he if you are to love your enemies, then you are to love satan, if satan is the arch-enemy. << and that is the least silly of the contradictions of xainty >> JM>rebelled against God... your statement is like saying, "Why don't Christians JM>witness to satan?" - He is already sentenced to hell. more accurate would be to say that paul rebelled against satan, and kicked satan out Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * Trust me, I'm a salemen. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Blake Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 26 Apr 92 04:26:22 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS UpdReq Date: 04-21-92 (23:55) Number: 44 From: PALE RIDER Refer#: 39 To: ASTRAL INVADER Recvd: NO ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ PR>AI> I love the way you consistently end your 'research' at this PR>AI> superfical layer that floats about the truth like some sort of PR>AI> obstructive pond scum....delve a little deeper will ya?... PR> You mean Aleister Crowley didn't commit illegal acts like PR>a baby sacrifice or animal sacrifices? no he didn't. and there are only two rituals he did that required the drawing of blood --- and that was one's own blood. and if you'd like more info on those rituals, i suggest you join the A.: A.: 93 jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * agape/thelema/gnosis/ianamad 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Charles Nemo 26 Apr 92 21:48:10 Subject: Temple of the Vampire Sent UpdReq On April 26, you responded to my April 26 message to Dirge, "Temple of the Vampire": . DV > I would be willing to pay $10 for the information, if there are at least nine other people on this echo who are willing to pay $10 for it. Is there anyone on this echo we all know and trust well enough to take up a collection? (There are some people here with access to free photocopying.) Charles Nemo, are you reading this? Are you interested? . CN > Sure, I'll go for it. Do you me to do the collection, or do you or someone else want to do it? .I think you should do it. You've sent enough photocopies of enough other literature to enough people, for free, that there should be absolutely no reason for anyone to doubt your intentions. .But let's wait until we see how many people are interested. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718