From: Frater Almost Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 21 Apr 92 03:31:04 Subject: Re: satan Sent UpdReq Recently, Frater Almost, a student of Metaphysics, Logic, Mathematics, and Ye Wyse Frater of Ye Frateryty of Ye Rosy-Croix did notice with amusement... JM> You are false. Christ never did love satan. JM> Jesus teaches us that we are to love thy enemy, JM> which means men who do wrong towards us. Not JM> satan. Satan is all evil, and the Word of God JM> instructs Christians to turn from all evil. And on whose authority do you speak for Christ? You have no evidence thhat Christ told us to Hate Satan. Instead, all evidence points to the contrary. Even in the desert, Christ could've destroyed the Tempter but he did not. You face me with subjectives and I face you with objectives as you requested. I have studied the Bible and I was, at one time, prepairing to enter the Clergy. Do not Take the Word of Christ in vain! You speak as if you had His voice but you do not. Take heed lest you bear false witness and ammend the Scriptures to your own WHim. Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Coronis Area: Base of Set To: Dirge 21 Apr 92 01:21:26 Subject: PENTAGRAMMON Sent UpdReq Greetings, Dirge! In a message to Diane Vera on 18 April concerning BAPHOMET, you wrote: Di>> However, the pentagram is a bit tougher. I'm not sure I buy >> the Temple of Set line about it being a holy symbol of the >> Pythagoreans...however, I'd be interested to hear an answer >> to that, too... First of all, the idea of the pentagram as a Pythagorean symbol did not originate with ToS. Checking my well-used copy of EUCLID'S ELEMENTS with commentary by Sir Thomas L. Heath, the note to Book IV, Proposition 10 includes: Now we are expressly told by Lucian and the scholiast to the _Clouds_ of Aristophanes that the triple inter- woven triangle, the pentagram, was used by the Pythagoreans as a symbol of recognition between the members of the same school, and was called by them Health. Of course, this doesn't tell us anything about whether or not this was an inverted pentagram. I have to wonder if, when drawing the recognition symbol on the ground in dirt or sand, did the "drawer" face the pentagram with the single point toward himself, or facing away? It is possible that the symbol was recognized in such a situation as an inverted pentagram. Di>> Hail Satan! Hail Arta! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Base of Set To: Markie Chao 21 Apr 92 02:09:20 Subject: satan Rec'd Sent UpdReq Between Aristotle and Socrates, I think I've got my Greek Bases covered. Hey! Who's that guy on Plato?! ;-) Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Linda Beebe Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 20 Apr 92 08:28:00 Subject: Re: Satanism in General Sent UpdReq Hello... How's life? Nr> _Drawing Down the Moon_ is, by far, the best first book, and can be Nr> found in Nr> "mundane" book stores. It has a reading list in the back, both books Nr> and Nr> periodicals, and a list of "organisations". You could also pick up a Nr> copy of Nr> the magazine _Green Egg_, but only in an "Occult" book store... I'll see what I can find...my book list is growing at an alarming rate... Nr> My Ex was (is?) 1/4 black foot, but I'll TRY not to hold it against Nr> you! ;^) I went to see "Thunderheart" this weekend...all theseive american Indian movies are making we want to research my "roots"... funny, until my half sister found me, a few months ago, I had no idea I had indian blood...it's been kind of a strange situation... Nr> I heard that George Lucas said that the Star Wars concept of "The Nr> Force" was Nr> taken from Joe... I'm sorr don't know what you mean by this... and where ever it was taken from is irrelivant to it having merit... ever read any Joseph Campbell?? Nr> LB>Nr> Well, as long as you're not going to talk about Nr> extraterrestrials Nr> LB>and what IF I AM?? Nr> Well, the concept of "Ancient Astronauts", et all, is considered very Nr> much Nr> "New Age" by most Pagans (and Satanists?). And is probably at least Nr> off-topic Nr> here... OH...I kind of doubt if I'll get into too much trouble for mentioning it, but we can move it to another base if you wish... and mydeas about Our origins are not anything "new age"...most "n agers" find find me to be a tad "unusal" even for them... I'veeen at this awhile...some 25 years or so, OK? I'm far from beginner...though "left handed path" ideas are fairly new to me... L 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Astral Invader 20 Apr 92 10:22:00 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS Sent UpdReq AI> Do you believe that Crowley sacrificed human beings, Pale?... Yes, I do. AI> How exactly do YOU interpret Crowley?...I'm still working on that one I interpret him to be a genius, a lunitic, a nut, and highly evil. AI> assimilate....Have you done so?...No, you chose to use some article AI> out of a periodical to base your entire opinion of Crowley and the AI> work. Nice.... No, I have not done so. I might be doing a book swap with a certain guy on the board to get Magick and Practice (or whatever that book is that you have most of it in computer form. I went down to Peace of Mind last week, the incense that they were using made my friend and I feel a little weird. I was really disappointed. The didn't have anything that was considered Satanic, and I don't even think that they had witchcraft stuff, if I remember right. They didn't have the LaVey trilogy, or any form of Necrominican (sp?). If they did have some of the works of Aleister Crowley, they weren't cheap. I have money to be able to by a used paperback for a $1.50 or something. But I am going to be doing good, if I can afford to even buy a new paperback of the Satanic Witch. The Majick and Practice that is on this board, seemed to be incomplete. It was like the bottom of one or two of the files were cut off. Plus, I prefer to read my information on paper. A CGA computer screen is annoying to read off of. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azrael Area: Base of Set To: Lady Byron 20 Apr 92 12:20:00 Subject: Re: Setian Philosophy Sent UpdReq LB> Thank you. My beliefs, however, are always changing. If I weren't LB> willing to learn, grow and change, I wouldn't be practicing the LB> Temple's (and my) most important concept - Xeper (pronounced LB> "Kheffer"). Xeper is an Egyptian word meaning, basically, to grow This concept is (for me) the most appealing aspect of the Temple's beliefs(as I understand them to date). I have for sometime now kept (I don't know a word that best discribes this, so stay w/ me) memorabilia of my past "accomplishments", I use these to insure myself that I am not standing still in my growth and personal development. To remain unchanging is to stagnate. In other words I am not now who I was then or even the person you began posting to. LB> unfortunate that society teaches us that this is "evil!" We are LB> arrogant because we recognize our own worth, and we don't feel it is LB> necessary or even desirable to be humble after we have worked so hard LB> to be who we are. I agree with recognizing own's own worth, for if you don't respect yourself how can you expect respect from others? However, misplaced arrogance ie being arrogant to someone seeking understanding; is to me rather like being arrogant to a child. The child does not understand the reason or even the concept of the arrogance being directed at him/her, and is therefore put off believing that he/she has commited some wrong. And that child unless he/she is very strong will not ask again. What you end up with is a child that is seeking but too afraid to ask. LB> True, oneness and blending with the universal consciousness is not LB> sought. I, for one, find it rather undesirable, to say the least. LB> If interested, I will tell you more in another missive as to why. Yes I would like to hear more of your thoughts on this. I do not believe that I have a proper understanding of your beliefs on this. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azrael Area: Base of Set To: Lady Byron 20 Apr 92 12:28:00 Subject: Re: left-hand? Sent UpdReq I am not at this time prepared to seek information from the Temple itself. I do not feel that I have enough to offer in return. In one of the writting that I d/led it stated that the Temple was leery of new people. That it had come across too many that leeched information from the Temple. Due to my lack of knowledge in the ways of occult thinking, I fear that I might appear to fall into this catagory. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azrael Area: Base of Set To: Lady Byron 20 Apr 92 12:32:00 Subject: Re: Blood-sucking? Sent UpdReq I not had the chance to speak w/ anyone on specfic orders. So can't comment on this one. I am truly enjoying your patience and posts. Thanks 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azrael Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 12:41:00 Subject: Re: left-hand? Rec'd Sent UpdReq DV> Most of us are DV> interested in sharing only with people whose feedback can in turn DV> help *us*. We don't rush to share merely for the sake of sharing. What about long term investments? While I concede that at present I have very little to offer in the way of rewards for sharing now...However, in the big picture on down the road I may have much to offer. Everyone starts where they are and grows from there. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azrael Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 12:47:00 Subject: Re: What is Satanism? Rec'd Sent UpdReq I sincerely appreciate the information and the objective way in which you presented it. I look forward to reading your discussions. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azrael Area: Base of Set To: Phule 20 Apr 92 13:03:00 Subject: Re: ENLIGHTENMENT Sent UpdReq May my cup always have dust in it. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azrael Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 20 Apr 92 13:06:00 Subject: Re: ENLIGHTENMENT Sent UpdReq ZOOOOMMMMM...sorry but that one went over my head. Please explain. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azrael Area: Base of Set To: Lady Byron 20 Apr 92 13:09:00 Subject: Re: ENLIGHTENMENT Sent UpdReq LB> The majority of people will always find something to bitch about. have you noticed that even when they have nothing to bitch about, they bitch about the fact they have nothing to bitch about. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Astral Invader Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 20 Apr 92 13:42:00 Subject: Re: What is Satanism? Sent UpdReq Nr> Yes, there are many trails that lead to the same Path... I like to double back every now and then and see what I missed....}:) /Astral/ 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Astral Invader Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Apr 92 14:10:00 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS Sent UpdReq PR> Yes, I do. Based on the evidence from this article?...O-Kaaaaaay.... PR> I interpret him to be a genius, a lunitic, a nut, and highly evil. I was speaking of his work, not the man.... PR> No, I have not done so. I might be doing a book swap with a certain PR> guy on the board to get Magick and Practice (or whatever that book PR> is that you have most of it in computer form. I went down to Peace PR> of Mind last week, the incense that they were using made my friend PR> and I feel a little weird. I was really disappointed. The didn't PR> have anything that was considered Satanic, and I don't even think PR> that they had witchcraft stuff, if I remember right. They didn't PR> have the LaVey trilogy, or any form of Necrominican (sp?). If they PR> did have some of the works of Aleister Crowley, they weren't cheap. PR> I have money to be able to by a used paperback for a $1.50 or PR> something. But I am going to be doing good, if I can afford to even PR> buy a new paperback of the Satanic Witch. I know....Peace of Mind has deteriorated a bit in relation to it's 'Dark Side' paraphenalia and literature due to the attitude of the persons running the store these days....There are quite a few good books on general Magick still, and their Egyptology section is quite good....But no, you won't find any 'LaVeyan' literature lying about for the taking.... /Astral/ 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Astral Invader Area: Base of Set To: Azrael 20 Apr 92 14:31:00 Subject: Re: Setian Philosophy Sent UpdReq Az> I agree with recognizing own's own worth, for if you don't respect Az> yourself how can you expect respect from others? However, misplaced Az> arrogance ie being arrogant to someone seeking understanding; is to Az> me rather like being arrogant to a child. The child does not Az> understand the reason or even the concept of the arrogance being Az> directed at him/her, and is therefore put off believing that he/she Az> has commited some wrong. And that child unless he/she is very Az> strong will not ask again. What you end up with is a child that is Az> seeking but too afraid to ask. It's a tricky maneuver to suddenly realize your own 'power'....In many cases if the person is not well grounded in a bit of the humble, they can fly off into the void of arrogance and a nearly disgusting state of egotism....I believe this happened in a sense to Crowley, and to a different degree in Anton LaVey....When your accomplishments extend further then the mere scope of your realization, a person is bound to lose control unless they have a firm grip.... Later, /Astral/ 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Apr 92 17:37:00 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS Sent UpdReq PR> At the moment, Jews do make excellent Satanists! I'm sure they'll be pleased to be informed of that! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 20 Apr 92 17:42:00 Subject: Re: satan Sent UpdReq JM> would you all want to serve a god that is not victorious? Jesus is We don't serve (and I think I speak for most of us here). JM> my God. Jesus beat satan when he rose from the dead... Why wouldn't JM> you serve something that would not win? Or do all satanists want to JM> burn in hell with satan? Reread my previous post to you. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Markie Chao 20 Apr 92 18:01:00 Subject: Re: satan Rec'd Sent UpdReq MC> And how many of us even bother to own a bible anymore except in some MC> cases for reference? I know what you mean. I have several translations and concordences, etc. I use them maybe twice a year. Bring up an interesting conversation that the -=Sinmeister=- and I were having while at lunch this afternoon. Ever notice the sometimes incredible hostility some Satanists have in connection with Christianity? I can well understand it, as I went through a period when I was younger that passed the "pissed off" stage and sort of got out of hand. But, I can't see anything useful or productive in that mentality. Indeed, about the only feeling I have connected with Christianity is amusement, these days. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Lady Byron 20 Apr 92 18:12:00 Subject: Re: Setian Philosophy Sent UpdReq LB> Please ask other Setians how they feel about this, and why. Fortunately, Azarel came to one of our public "Darknet" meetings two Saturdays ago. There were six of us there and we chewed on each others ears for HOURS. Big fun! (Six Setians; about forty other people......) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Lady Byron 20 Apr 92 18:17:00 Subject: Re: Blood-sucking? Sent UpdReq LB> (Actually, there are those in the Order of the Vampyre ... ) How about those Anhks in the Scroll! What lock does that key fit? (just wanted to raise the level of melodrama...... }:D ) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Puck 20 Apr 92 18:22:00 Subject: Re: Set... Sent UpdReq Pu> Just a quick question -- are we talking about Set as a so-called 'god Pu> of evil', or the way he seemed to be worshipped - that of the Pu> personification of the encroaching desert to the Nile? I've been Pu> curious about that, as I had thought Setianism had been an off-shoot Pu> of Satanism, a la LeVeys' Church. I think you'll find that in most treatments of Set by reputable scholars, he/it is far more than a personification of "the encroaching desert". The founder of the Temple was a high official in the Church of Satan, but past that it is apples and oranges in my opinion. I don't know of any Setians who view Set as a "god of evil" (that, of course, is not to say that there are none who DO see Set that way.) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 20 Apr 92 18:50:00 Subject: non-Christians not allowed! Sent UpdReq Jeff, What do you think of the rather curious mentality that won't allow Setians or Satanists on Christian echos? What do you think about the juxtaposition of the freedom Christians have to post on these "dark" echos? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Apr 92 19:02:00 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS Sent UpdReq PR> AI> Do you believe that Crowley sacrificed human beings, Pale?... PR> Yes, I do. On what do you base this? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Azrael 20 Apr 92 19:05:00 Subject: Re: Blood-sucking? Sent UpdReq Az> I not had the chance to speak w/ anyone on specfic orders. So can't Az> comment on this one. I am truly enjoying your patience and posts. Next time we meet I'd be happy to let you peruse portions of my _Crystal Tablet_. I will not let it out of my possession, but I am sufficiently impressed with you that I don't doubt your motives. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jeff Mccord Area: Base of Set To: Astral Invader 20 Apr 92 19:55:00 Subject: Re: satan Sent UpdReq AI> Where is 'enemy' defined as such in the Bible?...Is not Satan, the AI> ULTIMATE 'enemy' to the Christian paradigm?... In Luke 6:27, "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." Luke is speaking of man. This is what Jesus did. He is our prime example. He loved everyone on earth; he died for you and he died for me. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jeff Mccord Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 20:02:00 Subject: Re: satan Rec'd Sent UpdReq DV> Also, how come you don't capitalize the name "Satan"? And how come DV> you capitalized the word "Satanist" in one paragraph but not in the DV> next? It was a grammatic error... DV> *Symbolically* speaking, however, it does seem likely that "Satan" DV> will "win". During the past few centuries, the Church has gradually DV> been losing its hold, and Western culture has gradually become more DV> and more individualistic (i.e. "Satanic"). Unlike some folks on You do have some truth to that. But, note it says in the Word of God, in Luke 21:8: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, I am he, and the time is near. "Do not follow them." Jesus goes on in verses 9-28 about how during the end times this world will corrupt. Satan might have a grip on the nation today, but that is all in prophecy... it is supposed to happen. But, eventually, the grip of Satan will be torn down. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jeff Mccord Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 20 Apr 92 20:06:00 Subject: Re: satan Sent UpdReq Again, you acknowledging the Bible as a myth is your opinion. The Word of God is not a myth - this is my belief. AS> The Blood of Jesus never did anything for anyone except in AS> poetic myth (where it can do anything the mind sets it to). One of The Blood of Jesus symbolizes the forgiveness of sins. The Blood is what frightens satan and all his demons. The Blood heals, protects, forgives, and also reminds us of the crucifixion that Jesus went through so that we may be forgiven. See, Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ. God gives you the choice: You are either for God or against God. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jeff Mccord Area: Base of Set To: Frc 20 Apr 92 20:09:00 Subject: Re: non-Christians not allowed! Sent UpdReq I understand where you are coming from about non-christians being unable to post in Christian echos... but that is nothing I can do. I do not own the echos... I personally let all opinions and sides have their right to post. Its fair. If I am bothering you or making you uncomfortable, I am sorry.. But, as a Christian, I am to go to witness to people who are not saved, so that they can see and hear the TRUTH, and then it is their choice to go from there. I don't what to have a reputation on forcing Christianity down your throat. God gives you the choice. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Phule Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 20 Apr 92 20:16:00 Subject: Re: Visibility Sent UpdReq HEY I get that a lot! I did not know that I was a kitchen gost when I chose the name, but I find I to be 2wice as cool as the name was when it was originally given by Eris. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Phule Area: Base of Set To: Azrael 20 Apr 92 20:16:00 Subject: Re: ENLIGHTENMENT Sent UpdReq FNORD !!! Let us all drink deeply and find our ignorance! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Sinistar Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 21:49:00 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS Rec'd Sent UpdReq DV> Right. However, in order to convincingly tell people what Satanism DV> is NOT, we do need to give them some idea what it *IS*. (And, to DV> honestly do this, we need to point out that there are many forms of DV> Satanism.) The problem we'll run into obviously is getting all the different Satanist's opinions together. There's such a wide variety of legal Satanism, that it could take quite a while. -=Sinistar=- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Sinistar Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 20 Apr 92 21:50:00 Subject: Re: What is Satanism? Sent UpdReq Nr> I like the Temple's philosophy on this point... I really relate to it. I like the freedom it gives the Setian to decide for him/herself.... -=Sinistar=- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Sinistar Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 20 Apr 92 22:28:00 Subject: Re: non-Christians not allowed! Sent UpdReq JM> saved, so that they can JM> see and hear the TRUTH, and then it is their choice to go from there. JM> I don't So, you force us to hear and see the truth, THEN give us the choice to go from there? That's what it sounds like from what you posted above..:-) JM> God gives you the choice. And it's obvious the choice the people in here have ALREADY made, or else they wouldn't be in here, would they?... -=Sinistar=- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Frc 20 Apr 92 23:23:00 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS Sent UpdReq Fr> PR> AI> Do you believe that Crowley sacrificed human beings, Fr> Pale?... Fr> Fr> PR> Yes, I do. Fr> Fr> On what do you base this? From scattered information that I read in the past, probably atleast a year ago. I thought that it was common knowledge how evil Aleister Crowley was.... You mean that you don't think that he indulged in illegal activities like sacrifices? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 20 Apr 92 23:45:00 Subject: Re: satan Sent UpdReq JM> DV> *Symbolically* speaking, however, it does seem likely that JM> "Satan" JM> DV> will "win". During the past few centuries, the Church has JM> gradually JM> DV> been losing its hold, and Western culture has gradually become JM> more JM> DV> and more individualistic (i.e. "Satanic"). Unlike some folks JM> on JM> JM> You do have some truth to that. But, note it says in the Word of JM> God, JM> in Luke 21:8: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will JM> come in my name, claiming, I am he, and the time is near. "Do not JM> follow them." JM> JM> Jesus goes on in verses 9-28 about how during the end times this JM> world will corrupt. Satan might have a grip on the nation today, JM> but that is all in prophecy... it is supposed to happen. But, JM> eventually, the grip of Satan will be torn down. Hi Jeff, I am the local radical "evangelical" Christian in here. I have been on Purgatory for more than a year. In seeing some of your posts, I remember the way that I used to try to talk to the Sinistar, Astral Invader, and Triple Six. I remember that I used to throw Scriptures out like crazy, and of course, it does no good. I hope you are ROCK SOLID in your faith, and I hope that you know Christianity to its full extent. If you continue to post messages in here, you are going to find that there are several Occultists and Satanists in here that know the Bible. You better hope that you can interpret the Bible correctly. If you don't watch it, you are going to get posts on supposed contradicts. If you wish to continue your posting, you are on your own with the supposed contradictions. I do know how to defend what some call contradictions. But, you are going to have to find out how to go about things yourself. I don't want to help you out, because if I help you, then you are going to be in big trouble, whenever you are confronted problems, when I am not here to help you. If you wish to test your knowledge on contradictions, pick a board with local e-mail, like probably Inter-City (272-7169), since it isn't that busy. This way you can test your knowledge in private. Well, I guess this ends my lecture and warning. I just want to make sure that baby Christians don't get into places that they have not become spiritually mature enough to deal with. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Azrael 20 Apr 92 23:52:00 Subject: hi Sent UpdReq Hi Azrael, This is the radical Christian here. Just wanted to say that I am glad to see that you got your modem all set up. I hope you have fun in here. TTYL...... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Dirge 21 Apr 92 18:29:48 Subject: OTS POLITICAL? Sent UpdReq On April 18, you wrote me a message titled "OTS POLITICAL?" in reply to my April 12 message to you, "QUICKIE DEFINITIONS": . D > Well, to say that the Order's aims are primarily political is to beg the question. The OTS sees itself as a primarily religious organization, but more along the lines of a midaeval religious Order. That is, our short-term goals are political, economic, etc. but only insofar as they relate to long-term religious and social goals. So, to answer the question, the main goal of the Order isn't to "promote a political ideal"; it is to promote a religious ideal. Politics is merely one vehicle by which this may be achieved. .Also on April 18, you wrote me in your message titled "RIGHT WINGERS": . D > The OTS is neither left-wing, right-wing, Libertarian, Fascist, or anything else. Being a primarily religiously oriented organization, the OTS merely advocates a political and economic point of view which is consistent with, and generated from, the core of the Order's view of Satanic philosophy. That is, that there exists two classes of people in the world, one of which (which we call Satanists) rules, and one of which (which we call the Masses) follows. .But a philosophy which is primarily about the rulers and the ruled is, by definition, a philosophy which is primarily ABOUT POLITICS. And a philosophy whose explicit central aim is to expand the privileges of the ruling class, at the expense of everyone else, is a RIGHT-WING political philosophy. .You can, if you prefer, call it "social" rather than "political", but it amounts to the same thing. .Your philosophy is in the interests of only (1) the ruling class and (2) those who believe they are destined to join the ruling class. And I don't think most Satanists are destined to join the ruling class. .Actually, the OTS's extreme anti-welfare views aren't even in the interests of the ruling class. For one thing, large numbers of hungry people have a tendency to start riots and revolutions.... .Are *you* a member of the ruling class? (Usually, members of the ruling class don't join the military....) . D > I don't see how Satanism in general can be said to be basically Libertarian. .Why not? Anton LaVey's views back in the days of THE SATANIC BIBLE and THE SATANIC RITUALS were essentially libertarian, albeit somewhat right-wing libertarian. (Over the years his stated views have become more and more right-wing and less libertarian.) On a few issues, LaVey was actually quite progressive. In the chapter in the SB on "Satanic sex", he advocated tolerance toward sexual minorities of all kinds -- in 1969, before gay liberation became fashionable. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 21 Apr 92 21:28:52 Subject: Re: satan Sent UpdReq My my my my my my my! I just LOVE it when theives like you and Jim and Tammy and Swaggert and Anal ROberts fall out on each other! Your "warning" to Jeff sounded more like a threat to me... Like you were really trying to say, "Back off! These are my HEATHEN GODLESS Souls to corrupt!" Get a religion. Pax Infernal. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Base of Set To: Frc 21 Apr 92 22:17:40 Subject: Re: satan etc. Sent UpdReq F> afternoon. Ever notice the sometimes incredible F> hostility F> some Satanists have in connection with Christianity? I can well F> understand it, as I went through a period when I F> was younger that passed the "pissed off" F> stage and sort of got out of hand. But, I can't see F> anything useful or productive in that mentality. F> Indeed, about the only feeling I have connected F> with Christianity is amusement, these days. I used to have the `everybody's entitled to believe what they want' attitude and refused to teach certain young people anything because I knew their parents would object, it was a respect thing. Then I figured out that this never goes both ways and went through the `get out of my face' stage. Now I see them as a pestilence that needs watching in case it gets out of hand, like the Michigan fungus, but generally don't give them much thought as long as they "stay out of my face". ;) I still have a few xtian friends though. Even went to a Catholic wedding last time I was in L.A. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 21 Apr 92 22:28:56 Subject: Re: satan Sent UpdReq Not to sound hostile but... YOU ARE BIBLE THUMPING!!! We're bored now.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Base of Set To: Jeff Mccord 21 Apr 92 22:30:44 Subject: Re: non-Christians not allowed! Sent UpdReq JM> If I am bothering you or making you JM> uncomfortable, I am sorry.. But, as a Christian, JM> I am to go to witness to people who are not saved, JM> so that they can JM> see and hear the TRUTH, and then it is their choice JM> to go from there. I don't JM> what to have a reputation on forcing Christianity JM> down your throat. God gives you the choice. I've heard this bit so many times... You don't make us uncomfortable, but it is an irritation to have this same crap shoveled at us over and over from more like you under this flimsy guise of it being your duty to try to save us. This shit is boring and costs the sysops money. This echo is about Set, you wanna learn what the Temple of Set is about? Ask here. You wanna preach? Go somewhere else. We've heard it. We're not interested. We are laughing at you and occasionally you get the occasional groan of "Not this shit again", you cannot save us, we don't want your salvation. We can save ourselves because your imaginary threat of hellfire is mythological and the only thing we have to save ourselves from is the constant drone of ever `helpful' xtians trying to tell us how to think and live. Understand here that I am not being hostile...hehehe. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lady Byron Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 20 Apr 92 12:04:22 Subject: What is Satanism? UpdReq N> I thought Setians didn't have much use for Crowley? N> But I will (REAL SOON N> NOW) read through these books... Well, we're all different. Crowley is recognized as the Magus of the Aeon of Har-Wer, followed by LaVey and the Age of Satan. Dr. Aquino is now the recognized Magus of the Aeon of Set. Crowley's aeon is important from the standpoint of seeing how the aeons have evolved. There is always something to learn from each aeon. Besides, he was a downright interesting character! Lady Byron 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lady Byron Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 12:22:46 Subject: Set/Satan (again) UpdReq DV> Here you and I do have a major disagreement. To me, Setianism is DV> only the latest in a series of new religions that Satanism has given DV> birth to, or helped give birth to. Other such religions include I DO agree with you. I was speaking of the image of LaVey's Satan, the Christian reactionary. That is not something that Setians NOR Satanists (hopefully) have a need for any longer. Satan, whether you prefer the symbology of Set or not, is useful in that he represents the individual. It is the opposing of Christianity that gets boring to me. DV> Thelema, Wicca, and feminist Goddess religion. (Let's not argue DV> over whether Thelema is a "religion"; Thelema is an eclectic, DV> nonexclusive religious outlook that can overlap with lots of other DV> religions.) To me, none of these new religions makes Satanism I don't have a problem with Thelema or Thelemites. I use the philosophy of true Will myself. (continued...) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lady Byron Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 12:27:20 Subject: Set/Satan (again) #2 UpdReq DV> this doesn't leave very many choices. It's difficult if not DV> impossible to create a new and powerful god-form without drawing on DV> either the Christian God or the Christian Satan, or both. (The I suppose this is where I fall asleep. I don't believe there is any need for spending so much time dissecting Satanic symbology. I suppose I was drawn to the image of Set because there is none of this seemingly obsessive need to define Satan and his history. True, Setians claim Set is an ancient diety giving rise to the Christian devil. Historically, this could be true. My point is, who cares? Another Setian's view of Set may be totally different from my view, and that is okay within the Temple. No one is spending time digging up "official" documents to "prove" that Set is older than Satan. It's recognized that the symbology is what counts, not the history. DV> As for me, I'm glad all these new religions exist. Satanists can, DV> in turn, learn a lot from the various different religions that DV> Satanism has spawned. (Satanism has already been strongly DV> influenced by Thelema, as well as vice versa.) But they don't DV> render Satanism obsolete, any more than Christianity rendered DV> Judaism obsolete, despite its claim to do so. I, too, am very glad of the large diversity of religions. We can, indeed, learn much from each other. I don't believe Setianism in any way renders Satanism obsolete, but rather Satan the reactionary symbol. Hope that clears that up. Lady Byron 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Balanone Area: Base of Set To: Azrael 16 Apr 92 03:59:22 Subject: Re: left-hand? UpdReq On 14 Apr 92 00:23:00, Azrael posted a message to Lady Byron concerning "Re: left-hand?"... Azrael, I'm out of town and unable to connect with the Base of Set echo for a while, and so will be posting this response almost a week after reading it. Others may respond to these specific points also, but regardless at least you'll eventually have my feedback from over a dozen years within the Temple of Set. A> and self where is the profit (to one's self) in sharing. What is to A> be gained...this is where I believe that I differ. I feel to truly A> understand one's own beliefs you must discuss them otherwise you are A> limiting yourself to your experances only, thereby limiting growth. An excellent point, and an important one. It's extremely important that all serious magicians, and especially those on the Left Hand Path, communicate their thoughts, beliefs, and experiences with others, so we can validate same. The one point I feel you may have missed is that those of us who belong to an organization like the Temple of Set are able to discuss them within the organization, with others who already share a common language and symbolism, so that these discussions are easier. When we discuss these topics outside the Temple of Set we find ourselves doing a lot of clarification of basics that we don't need to spend time on within the Temple. We avoid this type of inconvenience by hold most of our discussions within the Temple, with other Setians. A> I feel it is hard to believe that in a universe as vast as it is to A> assume that we are the best and brightest is a little presumptuous. I don't think you'll find many Setians who believe mankind is "the best and the brightest" in all the universe. It may be the case, but evidence one way or the other is lacking. There are some within the Temple who believe that there are other species, on other planets, who share the Gift of Set (the special consciousness that enables us to be Aware, and the ability to work magic). A> I am very interested in learning more, I went to a local bookstore A> and tried to find some books on Set. I could only find historical A> information. There are no modern books on Setian principles as such. Much of what we deal with has been written about from other angles, and you'll find those books listed in the Temple's reading list, which I believe is available in Purgatory's file system. A> reading material that you might suggest. I still have a looooong way A> to go to just grasp the basic concepts. I find however, that the more A> I learn the more I want to learn. That's a basic symptom of one's drive to Xeper. Learning is a never-ending process. Balanone PP ... Bones, about Commander Campett... "He's Jed, Jim." 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Balanone Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 16 Apr 92 04:13:46 Subject: Re: Lewis Stead's view of Thorsson (and possibly the ToS)UpdReq On 12 Apr 92 21:15:22, Diane Vera posted a message to Balanone concerning "Re: Lewis Stead's view of Thorsson (and possibly the ToS)"... DV> On April 5, you replied to my April 4 message to you "Re: Lewis DV> Stead's view of Thorsson (and possibly the ToS)" in RUNES & ASATRU DV> (as cross-posted here in BASE OF SET): DV> . DV> B > I work well with Pagans of all flavors in these DV> efforts, but have difficulty understanding a heathen :^) DV> who seems to refuse to recognize the pre-Christian roots of DV> modern Satanism in general, and the Temple of Set DV> specifically. DV> . DV> B > If the Temple of Set claimed no connection to a more DV> general Prince of Darkness, but limited their attention to DV> the specific Egyptian Prince of Darkness known as Set, and DV> loudly denounced the Christian corruption of that Form as DV> having nothing at all to do with the Egyptian Prince of DV> Darkness, would we then be acceptable to L.S.? And if so, DV> then why the differentiation? DV> . DV> I don't know about Lewis Stead; but to a lot of other neo-Pagans, DV> that would indeed make ToS more acceptable. DV> . DV> Why? Because fundamentalists insist on confusing neo-Pagans with DV> Satanists, and using that confusion as a justification for DV> denouncing neo-Pagans. A lot of neo-Pagans think the proper DV> response to this situation is to defensively deny that they are DV> Satanists, and to "prove" their non-Satanist credentials by joining DV> in the chorus of condemnation against Satanists. DV> . DV> I personally think that's a lousy strategy for dealing with DV> religious persecution, but it does seem to be a common neo-Pagan DV> rationale. I agree with you. It's a lousy strategy, and one doomed to failure. If the Temple of Set and all other satanists were to disappear from the face of the Earth, the extremist Fundamentalists would continue to place the title of "Satanist" upon neo-Pagans, rock musicians, secular humanists, and everyone else who refuses to follow their own strict interpretation of the Bible. I don't claim that all Fundamentalists are like that ... I've even established some camaraderie with a couple of Fundamentalists here in Sacramento who know in their heart that I'm headed for Hell, but that's simply because I won't accept their Jesus Christ, not because I myself do anything wrong. The more extremist Fundamentalists however find Satanism hiding in every book except One, and find Satanism in every religion except their own (and they're able to point to the scandals within the Christian religion to support this discovery). It's because of these types of people, those who proclaim Satanism as the #1 threat to the world, and themselves as the only people who know the cure, that I decided to go along with those in the Temple who do call themselves Satanists. If I'm going to be tarred with that brush, I'm going to have something to say about the quality of tar used. If this turns off many neo-Pagans, then I'm sorry, but they should be more flexible and open-minded in their own perceptions. If they can't be, if they buy into the lies and deceptions spawned by the Fundamentalists, then *they* are part of the problem, and have little to contribute to the solution. (I don't mean to say they have /nothing/ to contribute -- I do listen to them, and consider what they say, but rarely do I find anything worth while.) Each of us can only do our best to work to make this a better world for everyone. I'm open to learning about ways to improve my own approaches, but so far I haven't found any beneficial ideas coming from those who are panicked about Fundamentalism. Balanone PP ... Don't look back, the lemmings are gaining on you! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Balanone Area: Base of Set To: Dirge 16 Apr 92 04:27:54 Subject: Re: QUICKIE DEFINITIONS UpdReq On 11 Apr 92 19:47:37, Dirge posted a message to Diane Vera concerning "QUICKIE DEFINITIONS"... D> Quoting Diane Vera to Dirge (04-07-92): DV> I personally think it's in our interests to be able to provide DV> quickie descriptions. It isn't easy, but it is possible, and in my DV> opinion it's a skill worth learning, at least for those of us DV> who are interested in educating the public. Remember, we DV> live in the era of short attention spans (alas!). D> D> "Educating the public"? That's almost a contradiction in terms! What D> care we for the public? Satanism isn't, and never was, a mass movement. D> Better to let the public wallow in their television wrestling; let them D> have their misconceptions of what Satanism is or isn't, and let them D> reap the rewards of their "short attention spans". Dirge, It's true that Satanism will never be a mass movement. It's true that most of the public will never understand what Satanism is really about. It's true that much of the public will never pay attention. But to refuse to attempt to communicate with those parts of the public which do pay attention to us is to play ostrich, to stick your head in the ground, and leave your back side for anyone who needs target practice. It may be that we have differences concerning what we mean by "educate". My only goal in such education is to produce enough public comprehension about Satanism that "they" realize that Satanism is a /respectable/ and /not dangerous to the public/ form of religion and philosophy. My goal is to reduce the likelihood of another witch hunt which will harm me and mine. I'm glad to say that I've made a little progress along these lines, and that there are members of the public, neo-Pagans, Fundamentalists, media personnel, and many others, who are less frightened of us now than they were before I began, thanks to my efforts. Others have had similar effect, to a greater or lesser extent. That pays dividends in safety for all of us, giving us more time and freedom to pursue our more important goals. However, if you want to leave your head in the sand, that's your privilege. D> Besides, as you pointed out so well, we all have our own conception of D> what Satanism is; no single group or individual can hope to define it. But we can have fun trying. And we can indicate that there is so much variation among Satanists, that to understand what Satanism is really about people need to talk to more Satanists. That can only help ease tensions, no? Balanone PP ... End of sermon. Let the orgy begin. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Balanone Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 16 Apr 92 04:59:16 Subject: Re: What is Satanism? UpdReq On 12 Apr 92 21:13:48, Diane Vera posted a message to Balanone concerning "What is Satanism?"... DV> On April 5, you replied to my April 4 message to you "Re: Lewis DV> Stead's view of Thorsson (and possibly the ToS)" in RUNES & ASATRU DV> (which was cross-posted here in BASE OF SET): DV> . DV> DV > Personally, I think the questions "What is Wicca?" DV> and "What is Paganism?" will be answered a lot sooner DV> than "What is Satanism?" :-) DV> . DV> B > I disagree. My crystal ball says ... "What is DV> Satanism?" will have been resolved long before then, on the DV> great Celebration of Shuti in the year 6916 CE. :-) DV> . DV> No. Since not all Satanists celebrate the Celebration of Shuti, the DV> question "What is Satanism?" won't get resolved until DV> Walpurgisnacht, 7916 CE. :-) Diane, just because most Satanists today don't celebrate Shuti doesn't mean they won't then. The Celebration of Shuti won't even be declared as a formal Celebration for at least another week or two, and will be a very minor occurrence through the rest of the current millennium. However, because of the discoveries and teachings of the great magician known as Shuti, that Celebration will gain popularity until it becomes *the* great Satanic holiday sometime during the sixth millennium CE. :-) DV> . DV> Seriously, though, Satanism as a subculture is at a point of DV> fundamental instability these days, in a way that Wicca is not. DV> . DV> Organized Satanism conspicuously lacks any just-plain Satanist DV> religious organizations. As far as I know, there is no organization DV> for Satanists who are not Setians, yet who are into Satanism as a DV> form of religion and/or magick, not as a vehicle for the DV> promulgation of Anton LaVey's political views. Well, actually, DV> there are a few such groups, but they all seem to be highly DV> idiosyncratic and specialized. There are no (above-ground) DV> *general* organizations of this type, like what CoS used to be. DV> Until there are at least several such groups, there is no basis for DV> a stable consensus. I can see what you're driving at. I only question the type of organization which you propose and whether it's realistic. You seem to indicate that the pre-1975 CoS was such an organization, but the ToS is not. Yet the only difference I see between "Setians" and pre-1975 CoS "Satanists" is our current emphasis on Xeper as an Aeonic perception which expands upon and supercedes Indulgence. Perhaps I can better understand what you're looking for if we find other examples. Which organization(s) in modern Paganism or even Christianity provide that level of definition for their respective generic groups? DV> . DV> On the other hand, there are lots and lots of more-or-less generic DV> Wiccan covens, as well as a lot of specialized Wiccan groups. Thus, DV> there is a real basis for at least the beginnings of a consensus on DV> what Wicca is. If it's quantity of groups you're looking for, then we may have a problem based on the extremely small population of Satanists, and based upon the strong tendencies for "lonerism" within Satanism. I could point at John Dewey's efforts, pre-ToS. There is a budding group in the Bible Belt headed by one or more "Priests of Massu". There is another small group I know of on the east coast which claims to be part of the "Nepthysian Current", which includes at least one Satanist as a driving force. There is the Order of the Left Hand Path in New Zealand. For a while at least there was the Order of the Inverse Pentagram. There is the Occult Institute of Technology (which is headed by Satanists, and works in the Satanic milieu rather than Wiccan or other neo- Pagan arenas). At what point do we determine there are enough "groups" to establish the beginning of a consensus? Balanone PP ... He spoke for hours concerning his vow of silence. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718