From: Fra.: Nachash Area: Base of Set To: All 1 Apr 92 09:29:56 Subject: The Base of Set Echo UpdReq ==============================( [ ORIGX ] v1.6a )============================= ORIGIN LINE ACTIVITY =============================( The Base of Set )============================= *Northern Lights* Citrus Hts CA *V32* (916)729-0304 (1:203/444) 17.51% ALamut - Thee Mountain 415.431.7541 (1:125/51) 2.69% BaphoNet Classic: 718/499-9277 (1:278/666.0) 0.67% BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) 16.16% CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50) 7.74% HADITnet (1:123/15) 3.37% I've got free money, but no release.... (Quick 1:170/811.4) 0.67% O winged snake of light, Hadit! (1:123/15.0) 1.35% Pirate Radio Graz: Radio ZARG, Do 19:00, 99.9 MHZ! (2:316/18) 0.34% Purgatory : A Rising Force... (1:170/811) 35.35% See the Darkness in the Light... (2:316/18) 6.06% The Sacred Grove (1:343/56) 1.01% This blade here is my best friend.... (Quick 1:170/811.4) 7.07% ============================================================================== Found 13 unique origin lines in 300 msgs on 01 Apr 1992 09:29:56 ============================================================================== 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 1 Apr 92 05:32:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq PR> Fr> Wonder why one of Jesus's disciples was wearing a sword? PR> This is the way I look PR> at it, someone can kill me, but when other people are involved, I PR> will not hesitate to defend! Ohhhhhh.......I see? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 1 Apr 92 06:05:00 Subject: Re: Why bother answering Tim UpdReq DV> What kinds of people are more likely than any other kind of people DV> to worry about -- or be prejudiced against -- anything that looks DV> vaguely like "crypto-fascism" or "Nazi sympathies"? Mainly, DV> political leftists and libertarians, i.e. those people who care most DV> deeply about political freedom. I believe you know by now some of my views on this subject. I just wanted you to know that it was as a result of the exchange I watched on Magicknet a couple of years ago that I first heard of the Temple of Set. It also prompted me to write to Dr. Aquino and was in all likelyhood, the precursor to me joining. I have been a registered Libertarian for the last eleven years. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 1 Apr 92 06:17:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq PR> Let me ask you this, just because Walt Disney and others are frozen PR> in that place to keep them alive until they find a cure for a PR> certain disease, are they not a person? Of course, they are still a PR> person. It doesn't matter if they are frozen or not. Pale, they are _dead_. Matter of fact, Alcor has more sawed-off and frozen _heads_ than bodies. Cryonic suspension of viable embryos is a completely different thing. And if life occurs when the sperm penetrates the egg, and division begins; why aren't you upset about birth control pills? Are you aware of just how they work? And I've often wondered why there aren't funerals for miscarriages. It is treated as an unfortunate happenstance, but never as a "death in the family", as it were. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Frc 1 Apr 92 10:22:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq Fr> PR> This is the way I look Fr> PR> at it, someone can kill me, but when other people are involved, Fr> I Fr> PR> will not hesitate to defend! Fr> Fr> Fr> Ohhhhhh.......I see? You will notice that the turn the other cheek verse, is just talking if someone does something to you. It is different when something is being done to another person. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Frc 1 Apr 92 10:29:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq Fr> why aren't you upset about birth control pills? Are you aware of As far as birth control pills goes, it just depends. I realize that some women have to take these, because if they get pregnant again, they could loose their life. Fr> And I've often wondered why there aren't funerals for miscarriages. Fr> It is treated as an unfortunate happenstance, but never as a "death Fr> in the Fr> family", as it were. Probably because at no time does anyone get to hold the baby, or nurse him/her, or play with him/her, or hear him/her cry, etc.... Even if it is a still birth, they still don't have a funeral. It is definitely a baby at still birth, so that type of reasoning just doesn't work. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Triple Six Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 1 Apr 92 12:53:40 Subject: Christian Crime UpdReq In a message to Frc <01 Apr 92 10:22> Pale Rider wrote: >Fr> PR> This is the way I look >Fr> PR> at it, someone can kill me, but when other people are involved, >Fr> I >Fr> PR> will not hesitate to defend! PR> You will notice that the turn the other cheek verse, is just PR> talking if someone does something to you. It is different when PR> something is being done to another person. You can't defend yourself, but it's "ok" to defend another? Where's the logic in that? Cheers! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nosferat Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 1 Apr 92 18:02:00 Subject: Re: Christian Echo UpdReq THe Christian echo, it's the last one of the National Echos. I'ts right after nightside. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Triple Six 2 Apr 92 00:53:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq TS> You can't defend yourself, but it's "ok" to defend another? TS> TS> Where's the logic in that? The logic is that I am to let the Light of Jesus shine through me. That is the whole idea. Anyone can fight back, but it takes something special to love your enemies, especially after they do something to you. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Base of Set To: Frater Almost 2 Apr 92 18:55:40 Subject: $$$$ Sent UpdReq FA> Looks like Markie is gonna make it a cold day in FA> Hell for Cap'n Chuckie tonight! ;) While your out Hee hee hee...it's a cold day in Hell everyday here. ;) Tell you what, you give me your account number and we'll see if the numbers change...one way or the other. ;) He knows I was kidding about the cards, who do you think pays mine? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Star*fire Area: Base of Set To: Nosferat 26 Mar 92 13:19:36 Subject: Re: * UpdReq -=> Quoting Nosferat to Star*fire <=- N> What our your personal beliefs? Are you a thelemanite(sp) N> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Greetings Nosferat, I am a Thelemite but I like to learn from all facets of the serious occult. I like the conversations of you Setians and respectable Satanists and find that I can learn from you to help me attain what we all set out to attain; what we call the The Great Work. I was a Satanist in my youth but unfortunately I didn't know what one truley was so I did what most of the teens do and that is the xtian idea of a satanist. But I will say most of my rituals and spells worked with wonderful evidence. And they do work today but right now I`m in the process of learning Thelemite magick. Everyonce in a while I find myself falling back into the satanic magick but that is part of me. I never sacrificed animals or people (though some people do deserve it) I don't believe in killing people but more or less torture them serverly with a nice little curse. But I don't waste my energy cursing people since they have to do a lot in order to incur my wrath. I am proposing a book though on the true Satanism. I'm seriously considering collaborating with Diane Vera and maybe others to go out and find the causes of---- cont next message 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Star*fire Area: Base of Set To: Nosferat 26 Mar 92 13:46:20 Subject: Re: My beliefs UpdReq to interview satanists, to find out the story. I'm sick and tired of reading books such as Painted Black and the like the echo and play on people's fears on the subject just because some one wants to get their names in print. for example the notorious but gorgeous Adolfo De Jesus Constanzo. They made him out to be evil totally evil without getting into his child- hood. The biggest thing those authors preyed was indeed the fact that Conztanzo hated christians without reguarding the fact that he was brought up to hate christians by his mother who never ever let him have any friends. There is a rather good book on him that does deal fairly about him it's title Buried Secrets, now in paperback is written quite well and does not insult the intellect. Another example is the Friday the 13th "killer" that happened in Pan Handle Tx. I don't remember his name but I do know that a "Satanic" conspiracy is being fed to the public when in fact society is to blame for that poor (yet another incredibly handsome) kid's attitude about him- self. Another loner, down and outer. In jail he converted to xtianity. The book I have planned is going to show how society not Satanism is to blame for what is happening to america and not to mention xtianity with it's sinner philosophy. A more publisized account is the yogurt murders. Again Satanism is being blamed. Society in Societies eyes is blameless and cannot be held accountable. But in reality society plays a good half and xtianity the other. Look at Pale Rider's attitude (though more liberal than the xtians I've heard). But it's not Pale's real belief but the echo of his churches belief but he's getting better. I also once held his beliefs but when I found they weren't my own but the echo of what I was told to believe and found I truley didn't believe. Star*fire Ps. You asked are you sorry now. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Star*fire Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 26 Mar 92 13:51:32 Subject: Re: Book proposal UpdReq Dear Diane, Hi, I would like to know if you'd be interested in collaborating with me a book about Satanism minus the 'satanic crimes and conspiracies' but a good honest look at the subject objectivly, w/o the hog wash echos of playing on people's fears or xianity bias and prejucice. Star*fire aka Ken Anderson PO Box 1581 East Hampton, NY 11937 ----->just in case you lost it<----- Xper and Remanifest (I like that one) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Frc 30 Mar 92 00:46:00 Subject: Satanism in General UpdReq > You asked me about _Nova Acropolis_ a while back, right? > I heard a German band by that name this past weekend, by chance. (?) slovenian. > It would seem to me that the attributes you ascribed to the group you > had mentioned could be easily applied to the band I heard. they do use fascist symbolism a _lot_. > Any connection? I believe the name of the album I heard is > _Leibach_. LAIBACH is a slovenian band that uses a lot of fascist symbolism. they wear uniform-style clothing duricg concerts, use symbols like four axes bound together to form a svastika, and have texts that are usually folk songs or popular songs, but incredibly twisted. wicked! one album has "life is life" on it, which was a very popular song in austria, and which has an extremely stupid text. only the austrian band plays it rather fast, and noone gives a f*** about the text... now imagine laibach, with slow rhythmic HEAVY music, drawling out lines like "life is life... when we all give the power, we all give our best, every minute of the hour, we're better then the rest, then everyone gets everything and everything..., leben heisst leben, wenn wir alle das beste geben, wenn wir alle den schmerz fuehlen,....". [german part: life is life, when we all give our best, when we all feel the pain] creepy. > The music was VERY powerful. yes, it is, _very_ much so. gives me the creeps, sometimes: a song called "the birth of a nation" that has a text like "one people, one reich, one strong leader... one fight, one target, one strong will, yah, yah," is _very_ reminiscent of nazi propaganda. they used to play in order to get arrested by the communist regime. and then say, "hey! you're arresting us, who's the fascist now?!" but they were so successful that they have been playing for nearly a decade now, and many people now believe they really are ultra-right wingers. > By the way, I really liked it. so do i. i also prefer the "they are leftist, really" theory. anyone need the tape? t. hyde 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Bobby Meizer 30 Mar 92 00:48:00 Subject: xtian/jewish ritual UpdReq > Yom Kippur is a one-day fast, not a three-day fast. oops? got to check with that crazy theologian i know. [he used to want to becoome a catholic priest, even was in the priest seminary. last time i called him, he'd spent two consecutive days in bed with this girl...] [grin] t.hyde 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 30 Mar 92 01:40:00 Subject: Xeper and Remanifest UpdReq > TH>T. Hyde [new name, again. guess i'll stick to this one] > Like your new name! thanks. how'd you get yours, by the way? mine was "given" to me by a close friend and fellow student (female) (no, not all that close) > TH> c) burning material won't do a thing against > TH>whatever problem they may be attacking. > Shh!! Don't tell them!! They might do something intellegent/ > dangerous! GRIN! them? well, anything's possible... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 30 Mar 92 01:58:00 Subject: "SET" king size filters UpdReq > DW>hey, nice to meet you too. i guess it's going to be fun > DW>with all you people there in my afterlife... yeah, pale > DW>too, 'cos we know he'll join us in hell or wherever we go, > DW>won't he? ;) > Well, I've got the REAL story (Honest!) on Mr Pale Rider. It seems > that a couple of years ago, he was raving drunk at this REALLY wild > orgy, and the big man from down under got him signed up. Now he is > doomed to haunt this echo for the rest on his life, and then its the > down elevator for him! sorta reminds me of poor ole' Harry Angel [hm, another good name...] who sets out to find someone in a film called Angel Heart (the book's called Falling Angel). Harry Angel gets in trouble with a certain mr. Louis Cyphre [didn.t want to use that name for myself], and goes to hell. in the film, he's in an elevator.... old pale doomed to be a radical xtian for the rest of his life, only to find out (on his deathbed) that he'll be going to hell anyway? hehe! but then, no one said the xtian god was interested in justice, he's interested in _revenge_, as mr pale has told us... what might good ole pale have done to deserve such a hellish fate, i wonder? [dirty grin.] feel the sweat running down your back, pale? the fact that you are so sure that you are saved may be but one tiny part of the gods' cruel game... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 30 Mar 92 02:12:00 Subject: Nonproductive debates UpdReq > DV>For example, I think it's useless to debate with Pale Rider about > DV>Christianity. You, Gary Cruser, and a few other folks apparently > DV>think otherwise, so I leave that debate to you. I don't, out of > DV>sheer disgust for the debate's uselessness, throw nonproductive > DV>flames at Pale Rider, even though I'm thoroughly disgusted by some > DV>of PR's remarks. (I do wish the Christianity debate would move to > DV>OASIS, however.) diane does, however, sometimes write messages with 14 quote lines and then one "thank you" plus origin.... [grin. don't shoot me, diane!] > Since a number of people here are still in the "breaking away from > christianity" stage, I think PR serves a very useful purpose here. yeah. "distorting mirror"? showing us an example of what we might have become, of what we might be. he should probably also serve as a reminder not to let oneself fall into the "oh goody, i am not like him" category. > In fact, if he didn't exist (Hmm... he IS for real, isn't he?) it > would be useful to have someone pretend to be a fundy on this echo. :) huge grin. or maybe a total nut? writing useless gibberish all over all of the available echoes... but then, i have some users like that around here... only they can't get this echo... there's a smallish sort of fundy/creationist net called lifenet here in europe, we could gate the SET and NIGHT_SIDE echoes to them. what a nightmare, 200 radical xtians, each of them worse than pale... [just kidding about the gate. don't beat me!] 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 30 Mar 92 02:31:00 Subject: Look at the scams before you join (some are pretty good B^)UpdReq > > But, no, I will not post my testimony in this echo. BTW, I am > seriously thinking about going into the ministry full-time. > Christianity isn't some joke to me. I am very solid in my faith. > > Sure, please go into the ministry. I think there is nothing > better to show you the fallacy of the system. [.....] > . I highly recommend it. Eventually you'll think for yourself. > Going into the ministry is a good idea. that's just what happened to my theologian friend. he was solid in his faith as well, even was still a virgin [are you, pale? no, don't tell me, i just like to imagine you blushing] when he decided to drop out of his priest seminary and become a healthy, sane, human person. i like him much better now. even though he is a bit crazy now... :) t/hyde 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 30 Mar 92 02:45:00 Subject: Spiritual Orientation (2 of 2) UpdReq TH> but i have never heard anyone mention the ToS in europe. B> Yes we are. There are a few Setians in Europe, primarily in B> Germany and England, and scattered in some other European B> countries. If you want I can send the address of our primary B> contact in Germany to the P.O.B. you posted. yes please! p.o.box 7, 8017 graz, austria europe i have yet to find out a lot more about myself before i actually join anyone. oh well, i'm not in that much of a hurry to do so. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Bobby Meizer 31 Mar 92 18:27:00 Subject: definitions of satanism UpdReq > Of course, Keen isn't speaking in a strictly spiritual context, and > he is also careful to limit the above comments to our present 'era'. > For 'pre-modern' societies he identifies the 'satanic' qualities > instead as doubt, disbelief, and blasphemy. you might redefine these three qualities: 1) independent thinking and the strength to question an "accepted" belief; 2) the unwillingness to accept all the crap that churches keep force-feeding people with; and 3) enough chutzpah and courage to say so in public.... * Carpe Noctem * Templeton Hyde 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 31 Mar 92 19:08:00 Subject: Satanism in General UpdReq PR> Last night, something happened to reinforce my faith in God. you got laid? PR> God heard my prayers, and one of those PR> girls that got saved last night was my cousin. hmmm. i have this beautiful luscious girl cousin i'd like to "save" :) maybe i should actually give her another try, she refused me last time and i'm not into rape. however, if i sermonize for long enough, maybe she'll join me (in bed) and let herself be saved. Vi> 4. You're already (or still) miserable. I'll bet you couldn't go a Vi> month without logging on here. PR> Not as of last night. That was THE BEST moment of my life! i guess i know what you mean. i had a pretty nice night as well [snicker] PR> The two main people that I had been praying for for the last PR> several years finally got saved. so you managed to convert someone to your own faith by relentless sermonizing? big deal. i might actually try the sermonizing method on this cousin of mine, though... i just gotta do something about that, you know? there's just so many nice girls out there, running around without having been saved by me, and i would like to save them all! praise the laaawrd and hallelujah! seeya, t\hyde 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lady Byron Area: Base of Set To: Markie Chao 1 Apr 92 07:13:32 Subject: Boleskine UpdReq MC> He couldn't get oput of taking me this time, you MC> can have him when I'm done with him. ;) Why do I always have to take seconds? ;)= Lady Byron 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Balanone Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 31 Mar 92 02:12:08 Subject: Re: Sane Occultism UpdReq On 28 Mar 92 09:57:00, Ammond Shadowcraft posted a message to All concerning "Sane Occultism"... Ammond ... only the first 4 of 5 parts made it to Northern Lights. Could you repost that last part? Also, I think this item would be a good contribution to Metaphysics. What think thou? Balanone PP ... And God said: "E = mv - Ze/r" ... and there was light! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Balanone Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 31 Mar 92 02:15:40 Subject: Re: ToS and "Nature" UpdReq On 28 Mar 92 16:14:10, Diane Vera posted a message to Balanone concerning "Re: ToS and "Nature""... DV> Christianity does not aim to merge the individual consciousness with DV> the universe. (Again, that's Hinduism and Buddhism, not DV> Christianity.) Christianity does aim, at the expense of DV> individuality, to make the individual a part of something larger DV> than oneself. However, in Christianity, that "something larger" is DV> *not* the universe, but rather an abstraction called the "Body of DV> Christ", which is quite distinct from the material universe. Also, DV> in Christianity, one's *consciousness* does not get "merged" with DV> anything; one's consciousness remains separate but is supposed to be DV> totally *subordinated* to the "Will of God". DV> . DV> Christianity is RHP if one defines "RHP" as any religion or DV> philosophy which aims to make the individual a part of something DV> larger than oneself, at the expense of individuality. Here I must disagree. Christianity requires the subordination of a person to the Will of God in extreme. All of the person's thoughts are to be the thoughts of god. All of the person's emotions are to be of or from God. All of the person's acts are to be of or from God. Any attempt to explain that they remain "individual" while having no thought, emotion, or action which is not "of God" simply confuses the issue. Balanone PP ... Atheism is a non-prophet philosophy. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Balanone Area: Base of Set To: Grendel 1 Apr 92 16:56:28 Subject: Re: Lewis Stead's view of Thorsson (and possibly the ToS)UpdReq On 29 Mar 92 16:42:14, Grendel posted a message to All concerning "Lewis Stead's view of Thorsson (and possibly the ToS)"... G> Originally to Grendel from Lewis Stead in the Runes and Asatru Echo Grendel, thanks for the cross-post. Yes, I found it interesting (and not surprising). I had asked LS a similar question earlier, and his answer was along similar lines. At least he's consistent, and I can understand his point of view. It seems he feels the important reasons is that Edred Thorsson et al does not fit his (LS') definition of Asatru. That's an explanation I can accept, not knowing much about Asatru, and not caring much about what Asatru "really" is. (I view that question like I do that of "What is Wicca" or "What is Paganism", questions that probably won't be answered this century.) G> But wait there's more: I've spent a good part of the last 6 years G> doing lectures, interviews, etc in the local area for public relations G> purposes. One of the things we tell them is that there is a difference G> between Satanism and Paganism. So now I'm supposed to accept a Pagan G> group that is led by a number of Satanists. Oh right. Great PR there. That sounds a little self-serving, but the more important question is, "Is Satanism a form of Paganism?" While I find very significant differences between Setianism as I practice it, I suspect Diane Vera would claim that Satanism as she practices it is as valid a subgroup of Paganism as Asatru. [Comments, Diane?] But the question really becomes, what is Paganism? When the Pagans can answer that one, *then* I'll be glad to discuss whether Satanism (of any brand) is related to Paganism. Until then, I simply don't think the question is answerable. Balanone PP ... Don't blame me -- the Devil made me use that tagline. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Balanone Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 1 Apr 92 17:07:28 Subject: Re: Why bother answering Tim UpdReq On 29 Mar 92 17:57:28, Diane Vera posted a message to Balanone concerning "Why bother answering Tim"... DV> On March 23, I posted a string of messages on this same topic in the DV> OASIS echo to you, Triple Six, Coronis, and Frc. Did you see them? Yes, I saw them, and I believe I saved them to disk. I saw no reason to comment, since I had nothing to add to the discussion. Balanone PP ... From now on, I think for myself. Okay? Huh? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Balanone Area: Base of Set To: Diane Vera 1 Apr 92 17:41:48 Subject: Re: Why bother answering Tim UpdReq On 29 Mar 92 18:00:10, Diane Vera posted a message to Ammond Shadowcraft concerning "Why bother answering Tim"... Per my comment above re: your March 23 messages, I normally would not be responding to this either. But since you specifically want a response from me ... DV> What kinds of people are more likely than any other kind of people DV> to worry about -- or be prejudiced against -- anything that looks DV> vaguely like "crypto-fascism" or "Nazi sympathies"? Mainly, DV> political leftists and libertarians, i.e. those people who care most DV> deeply about political freedom. Within the occult world, these are DV> the people most likely to *enthusiastically* support a group like DV> AMER. In other words, *once their anti-ToS prejudice has been DV> overcome*, they are potentially ToS's best friends, politically DV> speaking. Even Tim, in his article "The Nazi Trapezoid", expressed DV> outrage at the police harassment of Dr. Aquino. On the surface your statements are very reasonable and sound. But there are (at least) two classes of these political leftists, within the occult or otherwise. There are those who look around and are reasonably objective concerning such questions, and there are those who look around and shriek that the people over there are fascists and neo-nazis because those people over there don't agree with us. (There are all sorts of people between these two types, as well as others further out on the scale of measurement.) I've met, spoken with, or corresponded with several of the former. They are rather easily disabused of any misconceptions concerning the Temple of Set and/or Setians. I've also met, spoken with, or corresponded with several of the latter -- they refuse to accept my statements concerning the Temple of Set and Setians, statements which stem from my own experience within the Temple. I've learned to ration my energies and time in favor of those who are willing to openly discuss those topics they feel are important, and who are willing to change their opinions if reasonable evidence is provided. I've worked with many of them. I've also learned to not waste my time on those people who are too paranoid concerning either the feared topic, or Satanists, or the Temple of Set, to ever consider changing their minds. Tim's responses to me and his comments concerning my discussions have reflected the latter tendency rather than the former. (That's my impression -- you have a different one, based on what seems to be a more intimate knowledge of him. I look forward to someday seeing evidence to support your opinions.) DV> By refusing to discuss Nazism with people who seem "obsessed" with DV> it, Aquino is thumbing his nose at the very people most likely to DV> care about *his* rights. Per the above, I recognize that there is danger of this, but in many cases the people Dr. Aquino thumbs his nose at are the very people least likely to care about *his* rights, because they're too busy being obsessed by other things. DV> And by refusing to debate with Tim and DV> Zhahai, he turned down an opportunity to learn how to communicate DV> with this entire, potentially very valuable category of people. Perhaps, but I suspect there have been and will be other opportunities. I myself have not found it such a rare opportunity as you seem to make it. More, I've found that most of those who *do* listen are much more liable to influence public opinion than those people who seem unable to look past the labels. Balanone PP ... I like to skate on the other side of the ice. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718