From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 27 Mar 92 09:24:00 Subject: Re: ToS and "Nature" UpdReq In a message to Diane Vera <03-23-92 16:21> Balanone wrote: Ba> Your points are very well made. It's quite possible that Ba> we've wrongly over-simplified matters in classifying Ba> Christianity as not only RHP but also as nature-worshipping. Ba> I'll see if I can track down the sources and reasons for that Ba> statement. It's one thing to over-simplify matters in the Ba> introductory letter, but we certainly should not be flat out Ba> wrong in a statement. That probably comes from the point of view that psyche venerating religious systems view Nature as God as Nature. Jehovah is still the pattern used for supreme *sky* Gods (in pillars of smoke and fire floating in the sky). Thus Nature is still referenced when referencing Jehovah. I know that Christians don't view it that way, but there seems good reason to do this from a psyche-centered view. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: Triple Six 27 Mar 92 09:33:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq In a message to Astral Invader <03-25-92 11:41> Triple Six wrote: TS> Good for a laugh though, but it _is_ somewhat scary to think that TS> some people take it seriously. No wonder the world is full of TS> trash... Hey! Did I ever post my "memes" articles on the BASE? I don't remember doing that, but they are long, so I thought I'd ask first before I bore everyone. B^) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: All 27 Mar 92 09:43:00 Subject: Hemlock Society UpdReq Anyone have the address for the Hemlock society? I saw something on them on PRIMETIME LIVE. They look real interesting. The head of Hemlock wrote the book FINAL EXIT. While the wife and I were watching this segment (heavily biased against Hemlock Society) we thought most of the issues brought against the society were pointless. Ok, topic for discussion... The right to die when you want too. Yea? Nay? I think that if persons feel like they want out they should have the opportunity to check out of physical life. Pros? Cons? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: All 28 Mar 92 09:49:00 Subject: Sane Occultism UpdReq h.1 of 5 In Christopher Hyatt's book UNDOING YOURSELF TOO Hyatt recounts a discussion he had with Israel Regardie who was perhaps one of the last of the great western occultist. After some chit-chat concerning how Israel generally gets himself in trouble with such published discussions, Christopher and Israel get down to business... HYATT: Does this explain why you don't want to bother with most people in the occult and psychology fields? REGARDIE: In a very large measure. As soon as they begin to talk it's offensive to me. HYATT: In which way? REGARDIE: Cosmic foo-foo. Flying saucers, star seeds, or whatever kind of crazy nonsense. All the stuff that's pure projection of their own need structures. Occasionally I will go to an occult bookstore here or there and browse around. I just listen to people talk. I don't say anything. Sometimes I may strike up a conversation to get them going. They don't recognize me -- that is until now, with all these photos you've published. I'll prod them, and just listen to the crap that follows. You see you have gotten me in trouble again. HYATT: Are these type of people what you refer to as sweet and light? REGARDIE: Yes, that and more. I would also call them lazy and infantile. They give the field a bad reputation. For them there is no evil, no lust, there is no nothing. They have the planes all mixed up. Everything changes by just wishing. Everything is nice, pure and holy, which it is au fond but not in their sense of the words. HYATT: Really they don't want to deal with anything. REGARDIE: No. Nothing! They're happy all the time... HYATT: Do you really think that? REGARDIE: No! Of course not. They're an abysmal mess. An abysmal mess. HYATT: That's probably one reason they don't like Crowley very much. REGARDIE: He would chew up this cosmic foo-foo and spit it out. Crowley made so many enemies simply by talking about sex, violence, etc., the way he did. And let me add this, you're creating a whole lot of enemies for us now in the opening of The Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic, where you talk about sex. You will create a whole lot of enemies right away. This author sees a real need in the magickal communities to ground ourselves well and to have a useful map to work from. Without this grounding, without knowing where we are, we will fly off into the eternal vastness of cosmic foo-foo. Just the problems of sex and spirituality along with transcendence and embodiment are enough to derail most magicians. Just read along... HYATT: You recommended psycho-therapy for those people seeking to embark on the Great Work. It seems that most people don't pay any attention to your advice. REGARDIE: Absolutely. But never mind whether they pay attention, I'll still insist on it. You see it is the only valid requirement for a sane occultism. HYATT: What school of therapy? REGARDIE: I don't care. Any school. HYATT: Jungian? REGARDIE: Even that. Once they've been exposed to even a little bit of it, it's like a virus, like herpes, it takes root. HYATT: I feel that therapy doesn't get deep enough. REGARDIE: I agree with you, but it makes a beginning, that's all I'm concerned with. As long as some entry can be made into their armour somewhere along the road, then it's all to the good. The rest will happen, by happenstance, Karma, accident, call it whatever you will. HYATT: At least we can hope for that. REGARDIE: I think we can count on it. I will. It may not show immediately, but after some years it will. Look what it's done for your friend. Your description of him was that he is almost human! Miracles do happen. Any kind of therapy I think is 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: All 28 Mar 92 09:51:00 Subject: Sane Occultism UpdReq h.2 of 5 absolutely essential for someone in this field, because as a rule they have absolutely no insight whatsoever. Now if they've been slightly oriented to the Crowley point of view, they're a wee bit different. But they can still be completely barmy. HYATT: What type of therapy is best from your point of view? REGARDIE: Listen, I have my own experience of therapy. I had one year of Jungian, two years of Freudian, four years of Reichian. There is no comparison between them. The year of Jungian was a wasted year. The only thing it did for me, and this is the most important thing, it made me delve into Jungian literature. I became conversant with the lingo. It gave me a philosophy which still has its place in my life, but as therapy I think it's utterly useless. And all this business of active imagination and making an image of figures in a dream and talking to them is plain mental masturbation. In reading something of the lives of those we consider the magickal masters of the west we can easily come to the mistaken conclusion that to be magickal one must be crazy. One needs only to read the criticisms of the great practitioners to see just how eccentric they were. But there are ways of avoiding an insane occultism... HYATT: So the Golden Dawn Adept, ideally, would be a person who would be willing and able to face all components of his own personality, without either ignoring them, repressing them or denying them. The "sweet and light" people simply ignore anything that doesn't fit in with their preconceived ideas or wishes. REGARDIE: Right. In the Golden Dawn, in the rituals of Practicus or the Philosophus grade, there is a nice phrase extrapolated from the Chaldean Oracles, so-called, in which it says, "Nature teaches us, and the oracles also affirm, that even the evil germs of matter may alike be made useful and good." In other words, there is nothing in man, absolutely nothing, which cannot be used in order to further the Great Work, to further his own psycho-spiritual development into an integrated, illuminated human being. There were several passages in some of the rituals and in some of the documents of the Golden Dawn, which speak of the "evil persona," the Qlippoth, the so-called evil elements of man. When mastered and put in their proper place, they may serve him as a mighty steed, a powerful beast whereupon he may ride to wherever he wants to go. HYATT: That viewpoint sounds very similar to Jung's and Reich's ideas. REGARDIE: Exactly. There is little difference. The rejected elements are always latent and when given enough provocation and stimulus will always rise up to haunt the individual when he least expects it. Therefore they have to be faced, dealt with, and incorporated into the very heart of one's being. HYATT: You make the point over and over again that it is your desire, in fact your demand, that any person desiring to be a neophyte and take his place in the Golden Dawn, go through some form of intensive therapy which will help him realize some of these shadowy factors and integrate them into his personality, so as not to be overwhelmed by the immense forces that are released through the Golden Dawn teachings and practices. From what you have mentioned to me privately from time to time, this is not happening. This must be a great disappointment to you. REGARDIE: It is a tremendous disappointment. In fact, something has happened in recent years over which I feel rather betrayed. One person to whom I spoke some years ago, and who attempted to form a new Golden Dawn temple, swore to me by all that was good and holy, that this would be one of the basic rules that would 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: All 28 Mar 92 09:54:00 Subject: Sane Occultism UpdReq h.3 of 5 be insisted upon -- that any incoming member of the Order would be required to engage in some form of psychotherapy. And we agreed on ANY form; it didn't make any difference whether it was Jungian, Freudian, Reichian, Adlerian, Eclectic or what, as long as they had enough psychotherapy of any kind to make them aware of this vast area which can be colloquially called the unconscious. Parts of themselves which they do not know, and have not known, but which have to be brought into purview of the whole self and incorporated into the total self. As time went on, this person intoxicated by the apparent growth of the Temple, dropped this proviso that we both had agreed upon, and which was one of the factors that I insisted on if I was to give any help. As a result, all sorts of squabbles have recently overtaken the temple, over which I wash my hands altogether. Recently, as a result of these squabbles, I am informed by the Hierophant that it has been decided, therefore, to reinstate the original rule, to insist that all newcoming members between the grade of Neophyte and Adeptus Minor have at least a minimum of 100 hours of any form of psychotherapy. I feel a great deal better about the 100 hours; it's still nowhere near enough, but the hope that I have secretly, is that by the time they've had 100 hours of psychotherapy they will realize the enormous need they have for further depth psychotherapy in order to prepare them for the great stresses and strains that the Great Work imposes on the organism. They will be willing to go further, and therefore follow it through to the end, thus incorporating the experience of psychotherapy into the experience of the Great Work. In other words, one is part of the other. Psychotherapy is the preparation, and the Great Work, the magical procedure of the Golden Dawn, call it whatever name you will, is the fulfillment of the promise that is revealed by, let's say, the preliminary hours and years of psychotherapy. HYATT: Some people would say that you are pretty tough in your demands for gaining this knowledge and insight. They might feel that all is really necessary is their love for the Great Work and their intellectual commitment. REGARDIE: Sincerity, intellect and love are nowhere near enough. Nowhere near enough. It reminds me of the title of a book by a prominent psychoanalyst in recent years, Love Is Not Enough. Love is not enough in the Great Work. The history of the Golden Dawn is replete with people who had love, devotion, intellect and all the other so-called great virtues, but nonetheless nothing came of their efforts. The Order went down to oblivion. The Order was torn asunder by strife, warfare, by internecine conflicts, by rebellions. A great deal of that might, and I use that word advisedly, might have been obviated by most of the members taking psychotherapy. Now I say might, admittedly, because we know that even in the very psychoanalytic organizations, even though the members did have psychoanalysis, psychotherapy in one form or another, they were still split at times by personality squabbles, by differences of opinion. However these organizations exist in full force today. They have not gone down to oblivion, like the Golden Dawn did. Only now is there a hope for its complete resurrection. But let's say that is one form of psychic insurance that there will be less turmoil and destruction than might otherwise be the case. But most persons of the occult persuasion have not the money nor the time to invest in a sane occultism. Thus CyberCraft and its predecessors like The Golden Dawn uses a map to create a frame of reference where most of the parts are on the map and can be 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: All 28 Mar 92 09:57:00 Subject: Sane Occultism UpdReq h.4 of 5 accessible to the practitioner with but a few moments of thought. We'll continue our explanation... HYATT: What is the practical purpose of the Golden Dawn? REGARDIE: What is the practical purpose of so many modern systems? from EST, etc., etc. That is to render a person whole. To give them more insight into their meaning, into their significance, into their functions as human beings, this is their goal. Where they came from, where they are now, and whither they are going. It's a method of developing a whole person, who is aware of all the hidden facets of his whole nature and knows how to bring them into play at will. HYATT: It seems to be a very lofty goal. How does the Golden Dawn attempt to accomplish this? REGARDIE: It attempts to accomplish this by certain exercises, by meditations and by ritual. All three of them were combined together in a very skillful manner, so that the student who really was, let us say, a person capable of initiating his own progress, of being a self-starter, would be able to take this vast body of knowledge and apply it to himself and thus, to use one of the phrases in the Adeptus Minor Grade, to gradually unite himself to his essential divinity and thus become more than human. HYATT: You've mentioned over the years that you've experienced disappointment in some people who have been attracted to the Golden Dawn and to the occult in general, and have made some prescriptions that are available to the general public to remedy this problem. Can you clarify this point? REGARDIE: All right, yes. I'll get myself in trouble again. (Laughter) Many of them are dilettantes, many of them are somewhat unbalanced people, and many of them are highly neurotic people. Some of them are just plain escapists, using occultism and magic as means of escaping from their own personal, emotional and neurotic problems. This is not the function of the Golden Dawn, or any other legitimate occult system. I'm critical of many of them, not merely of the dilettantes that I've just called attention to, but even of the better names, like Crowley, for whom I've enormous admiration at the same time. I've put that on record in many places and I regard him as one of the great figures in the history of occultism. But nonetheless, for example, when he published the Golden Dawn material, either he or his editors (which included some great names), somehow botched up the whole editing job. In Equinox 2 and 3 a great deal of the Golden Dawn teaching was given, but it was so doctored and so distorted, that if that were left there without recourse to any other body of knowledge, it would seem most inadequate. Crowley's genius was so great, that while he understood the Golden Dawn System well, he had very little ability to bring it down to the level of the layman with whom he was going to deal. He wasn't going to spend his life with geniuses of this kind, because there are too few of those around. So he was going to have to begin with little people, silly people. But, he had no patience with them, and, he had very little ability to bring down this vast body of knowledge to their level. I have to admit, without patting myself on the back, that I am one of the little people who had the ability to take some of this profound teaching, to succeed where Crowley failed in making it a coherent body of knowledge, to bring it to the level of, let's say, the man of average intelligence. Not so that he who runs may read, but that he who stands still and studies would be able to discern in it a coherent useful body of knowledge that might enable him to transcend the ordinary limitation of the unenlightened human 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Lady Byron 28 Mar 92 13:56:00 Subject: Crowley T-shirts! UpdReq > AI> LB> * * > AI> LB> \____/ > AI> LB> V V > LB> WHERE'S MY GALIC!!!! > Sorry to have frightened you so badly as to make you speak Galic in > my general direction! garlic or gaelic? * Carpe Noctem * Templeton Hyde 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Bobby Meizer 28 Mar 92 22:04:00 Subject: EIGHT.TXT (EIGHT.PAK) UpdReq > DS> black, though, is frequently associated with death and despair, > Actually, this association is purely cultural, possessing no > 'absolute' significance. For instance, the color associated with > death and mourning in China is white! i am aware of that. probably means that a magician with a chinese cultural background might initially use the "color" white to signify death etc...? initially, that is. i myself found color schemes such as this one gratifying for some time, when they helped me in my experiments or studies or whatever; what i do is too experimental and unstable for me to call it a "real ritual"... * Carpe Noctem * Templeton Hyde 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 28 Mar 92 22:15:00 Subject: Personal Preservation vs mass murder, 2 of 3UpdReq > Now, let's look back in Exodus 2, again with this story concerning > Moses. > In verse 11, the Egyptian was beating the Hebrew. Keep in mind, these > Hebrews were in bondage under the Pharaoh, the Egyptians. Let's look > closer at verse 11, "He saw the Egyptian beating a Hebrew, ONE OF > HIS OWN PEOPLE." That is the key right there. Is was one of Moses own > people. Now, read Genesis 9:5,6 again, where it talks about being a > man's brother or kinsmen. That is the reason that Moses hid the body, > because they were the slaves being persecuted by the Egyptians, and > under the law in Genesis he did the right thing. If Moses had not had > killed the Egyptian, the Egyptian wouldn't have stopped beating the > Hebrew. I am sure that the Hebrew had more than a scratch on him, and > since it was the higher Egyptian, the Hebrew probably wasn't even > fighting back. "probably" "i am sure" "if he hadn't, he would"... mind thinkeing again? you're twisting the words in an old storybook around to fit your own ends. you're reinterpreting everything so it will fit in with what you want to believe, and viciously attack the "sects" and "cults" who are doing the same thing. > Now, under the laws in the New Testament, we are no longer to do > this. God is to be the one to take revenge. a god of revenge? i thought he was a sort of god of love, asexually ofcourse, cause sex is a mortal sin for funnymentalists. [word borrowed from ammond] * Carpe Noctem * Templeton Hyde 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Templeton Hyde Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 28 Mar 92 22:28:00 Subject: Satanism in General UpdReq > DS> one in five americans has changed his confession more than twice... > DS> how many times have you changed yours already, by the way? > You see. That's what's different. During my teenage years, it was > like a roller coaster ride. One week, I would be holier than thou, > and not even watch movies. Then two weeks from then, I would get > angry, go get drunk, etc.. It was to the point that I couldn't keep > on the right path for longer than 2 or 3 months. normal, you mean? good times, bad times? sometimes out on a weird trip, sometimes on the blues with "when i think of all the good time that i've wasted having good times"? NORMAL! a normal life! ups, downs, excesses, periods of relative sanity and then a binge from time to time. what's wrong with that, too unpredictable?? > But in May of '91, I hit rock bottom. why, how? a self-pity trip? something really, badly, wrong? > I got to the point that I couldn't go any lower. I > hated my life. Then Christ showed me how much He really loves me. He > made a change in me, that had never happened before. I had been > Spirit-filled lots of times. But now it is to the point that I have > been filled with the Holy Ghost and overflowing, since May 17, 1991. > It think that was they exact date. you might think about talking to a good psychiatrist about these feelings. i remember that psychosis, also religious delusions, sometimes come in phases like this... [grin. THUD - ouch!] > I haven't had one drop of liquor, > since then . I haven't been listening to secular rock music, > etc....... For the first time in my life, I am grounded Rock Solid. > I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am Heaven Bound! ahhh, an alcohol-drinking rock'n'roller is your demon-in-the-closet or however you wish to call it? so you locked part of your personality away and hope it will never reappear again? read stevenson's Dr. Jekyll story and then think about how every part of you wnats out from time to time. why not let them? be unpredictable! gloomy sometimes, high the next day. try to walk through your city's worst parts with a bible in your hand one day and attempt to seduce a whole girlschool at once the next. be a slobbering freak sometimes, jaysus or a love-ing hippie, or whatever you want... stop being the normal, predictable, conservative xtian from time to time, at least: you habve much more potential than that. i hope you realize that. [and don't take my words too literally. you might want to read a book, though: THE DICE MAN by luke rhinehart.] > My church is boring. But, hey man, I get blessed driving down the > road in my car!!!!!!!!!!!!! which would be a sure sign of a) independent thinking and b) ego-centered "magic" instead of xtian community-centered hype. am i all that wrong? * Carpe Noctem * Templeton Hyde 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 28 Mar 92 11:08:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq Nr> How about that bible of yours? The part about "Thou shalt not suffer Nr> a Nr> witch to live" comes to mind. How if we start going around saying Dear Nrrys, Maybe you should look at some of my other messages concerning this issue. You are reading the Old Testament which includes Old Testament laws. Alot of these laws weren't spiritual laws but actual government laws that the Jews used. That is the reason that some gave a death penalty attached like some of them in Leviticus. However, you will notice in some of my back messages within the last few weeks, that I listed some laws from the New Testament that changes some of this. The Old Testament laws are still of God, but Christians aren't allowed to kill witches, etc...... unless they are in the government, because of the New Testament laws concerning vengeance and the like. The thing that is different about the Bible than from some of the other books that you read, is that you are reading a history book. In this history book, things done by chronilogical times mostly. Laws change. Mostly just between the O.T. and N.T. because Jesus came to die on the cross for the sins of men, so the O.T. certain O.T. laws had to be changed. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: David Weird 28 Mar 92 11:12:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq DW> wrong. a lot of people who believed in the bible interpreted it in DW> just the way that would make their crimes "works of god". a priest DW> who kills a child in an exorcism may believe he is doing what the DW> scriptures tell him; the part about "go and take the earth and till DW> it" or something was used as a pretext for driving the American DW> Indians away from all that wonderful land that could be used for DW> farms. do i need to type the texts into here? i will if you're DW> interested. And I believe you and the Satanists and Occultists can look at those verses and see that they were definitely twisted, and not even just taken out of context. There is a difference between outright twisting Scripture, than just taking them out of context. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Star*fire 28 Mar 92 11:18:00 Subject: Re: Xtians, etc. UpdReq St> Ok, is it because you've read the trash (Bob Larsen {oh him again} St> that St> awful book PAINTED BLACK(now in paper back) and the like, where the St> journalists St> have cited *isolated* cases where teens, adults, and that gorgeous St> hispanic No, it is because of the things that I see before my eyes. It is because of the teens that are now attending councellors at the local metal health place in the area. And these teens aren't isolated cases. The information that the councellors have collected are even going to be brought before the Mayer's Commission, including all of the occult paraphernalia that has been confiscated from Tulsa County area youth. It is because of teens that are involved in non-mainstream Satanism that have their lives threatened if they try to get out. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Astral Invader 28 Mar 92 11:23:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq AI> affilliations....It's always nice to be sure who you're talking to, AI> and to simply assume they represent a specific group is often times AI> a mistake.... I wish everyone would tell what group they are from at the top of their messages or something: CoS, ToS, Wiccan/Witch, other Occult, and Bible Thumper. That would be nice, but, of course, it will never happen. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Triple Six 28 Mar 92 11:33:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq TS> PR> him two miles." Matt. 5:38-41 NIV TS> I would, however, be interested in your interpretation of this TS> passage and its significance. TS> TS> For instance, why should one _not_ resist evil? Because, Christians are to show other love, the same love that Jesus has for us. The main reason that this law was brought into the picture was because Jesus was to become the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus did not resist. He did nothing to defend himself. He even rebuked one of his disciples for cutting off the ear of one of the soldiers that was about to take him from the garden of Gethsemane. Plus, when He was hanging on the cross, He could have called down ten thousand angels to save himself. But He did not, because he loved them that persecuted him. Christians are suppose to let the light of Christ shine through them. We, Christians, are supposed to reflect the love of Jesus in ourselves, by our actions. This is the reason that Christians are to turn the other cheek. This is the reason that the Eye for An Eye was reversed. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Astral Invader Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 28 Mar 92 14:37:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq PR> I wish everyone would tell what group they are from at the top of PR> their messages or something: CoS, ToS, Wiccan/Witch, other Occult, PR> and Bible Thumper. That would be nice, but, of course, it will never PR> happen. I'm not much for labels, actually.... /Astral/ 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Triple Six Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 28 Mar 92 15:37:24 Subject: Christian Crime UpdReq In a message to Triple Six <28 Mar 92 11:33> Pale Rider wrote: >TS> For instance, why should one _not_ resist evil? PR> Because, Christians are to show other love, the same love that PR> Jesus has for us. The main reason that this law was brought into It's impossible to love everyone, and those who claim to do so are fooling themselves. To show love (or the semblance thereof) towards those undeserving of love, is to make a mockery of love. Little wonder that love is such an abused word. PR> Christians are suppose to let the light of Christ shine through PR> them. We, Christians, are supposed to reflect the love of Jesus PR> in ourselves, by our actions. This is the reason that Christians PR> are to turn the other cheek. This is the reason that the Eye for PR> An Eye was reversed. There is something _very_ amiss in this philosophy. Do you resist evil? You have stated that you would enjoy burning books, pornography, etc. Why? What is evil? Is abortion evil? Was Hitler's Final Solution evil? Should he have been resisted? Cheers! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Triple Six 29 Mar 92 01:46:00 Subject: Re: Christian Crime UpdReq TS> Do you resist evil? This is where it gets a little complicated, and you have to know other Scriptures to be able to get this Scripture in the proper context. The evil that this was talking about isn't as in the spiritual realm like demons, it was as in someone doing something to you, this is the reason that the NIV used the phrase evil person. This reason that I say this is because James 4:7 says, "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." Plus you have to remember that this set of verses was in response to the O.T. law of An Eye For An Eye. TS> You have stated that you would enjoy burning books, pornography, etc. TS> Why? I don't think I said books in that statement. I said I didn't do books if they were of a religious nature, because I keep those type for research. Now, pornography, certain music groups, etc..., yes. Not for my benefit, but because it has a better effect on my friends. It gets them in the spiritual mood, because of the spiritual warfare that they are dealing with. They have fun doing it. I remember the last time we burned a Ouji board, they had me pick out a certain Psalm to read and we prayed. Really, I don't like burning the music stuff, because I'd rather swap to get Christian stuff, but then it would take all of the fun out of it for the rest of them. TS> What is evil? It would take forever to name off everything that is evil. But I will give you a little bit of information. Source of Gen. 3:1-6 God's attitude toward Rom. 1:18 Doers of Ps. 37:1-2 Examples of 1 Sam. 19:1, 10; Rom. 1:29-31 Returned for good 1 Sam. 25:21 Turning from Jer. 18:8 Appearance of 1 Thess. 5:22 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: Base of Set To: Frater Almost 29 Mar 92 02:14:02 Subject: RE: Re: left-hand? Rec'd UpdReq On 03/28/92 you wrote to Azrael: First off, Chuck, might I point out to you that you are using as a name the name attributed to the Angel of Death..... That might not be such a good idea. I once went under the name of Frater Choronzon and it got me into all osrts[sic] of chaotic trouble....... Really nasty stuff. What is the difference between this and superstitiousness? You have some perfectly normal coincidences which your presuppositions have got you looking for in the first place, and from this you feel it necessary to warn someone about using a 'scary' pseudonym. If you were to follow the 'method of science' as your prophet recommends then you would (AT AN ABSOLUTE MINIMUM) try a wide variety of pseudonyms for identical periods of time and keep a detailed record of everything that happens to you during those times. Only when you began to acquire a significant data sample could you begin to compare and see if there are any quantitative and/or qualitative differences between coincidences which occur during different periods, and if so, if these differences correlate in any way to the pseudonym which you were using at the time. Otherwise you are merely the victim of your own desire/fear phantasms, and even with the best of intentions you can do no good for others by advising them in such matters. You go on to say: Further, as I stated in another post to you, enlightenment can only come from within.... It is subjective and not Objective. and immediately after: The only reason that Xtianity doen't[sic] have this level of understanding is because the Mysterys[sic] have been forgotten and now go perverted. Can you see any conflict between these two thoughts? In fact, the second one seems to me to be your subjective misperception of Christianity presented as an Objective statement of fact. I won't debate with you about "Xtianity"'s "level of understanding", but I have met individual Christians who impressed me with their spiritual insight, and have read quite a number of books by Christians wherein I learnt much about "Mysterys". Also, how exactly does a religion pervert mysteries which it has forgotten? There WILL be a test on all this. Your quest for Light depends upon it! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 29 Mar 92 08:21:02 Subject: Re: Christian Crime Sent UpdReq Nr> How about that bible of yours? The part about Nr> "Thou shalt not suffer Nr> a Nr> witch to live" comes to mind. How if we start going around saying Let's not forget the crime of creative interpretation. According to an informed source, that line was supposed to be "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live", but it doesn't get written that way does it? And then there are people like my ex-father-in-law who freely mis-quote because the end justifies the means. He came up with "Thou shalt not suffer an astrologer to live". Trying to get me to give up astrology. Manipulators all. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Base of Set To: Bobby Meizer 29 Mar 92 15:30:14 Subject: RE: Re: left-hand? Sent UpdReq Bobby.... First off, this is really getting pissy. How can you speak to me of quantitative and qualitative analysis when we, I do believe, had a short discussion several months ago in THELEMA echo about Science or, as you put it, psience? Since, I have come to respect what you have told me about psience and the "scientific" method, etc. (It was either you or Tim.... I can't remember which now..... Failing memory and all of that.) Further, my advice was just that.... advice. Sorry if I got a stray hair up yer butt but that was just an opinion that I offered. Secondly, as to Xtians (NOT Christians.... I do make a distinct difference!) they don't have a clue as to what they are doing. I, too, have many enlightened Christian friends.... They are good people and they know me and like me. Further, as to perverted and forgotten mysteries. (Thanks for the spelling correction)... The mysteries that I talk about are the ones (as I am sure that you know) which pertain to translations of the _Bible_ and the removal of certain passages, editing, etc. Such things are normally done by money-oriented pseudo-priests (RC, Protestant, or whatever) and tend to instill new levels of paranoia in the more *gulp* gullible of the faith. As to the test.... I am young and will learn. Further, You make it sound like I will recieve such a test.... Do you know something that I don't? ;) Pax et Lox. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 29 Mar 92 17:44:44 Subject: Visibility Sent UpdReq On March 24, you wrote a two-part message to me, "Visibility", in response to my March 23 message to you, "More clues...." . AS > This brings up a problem I have with your communications. At times, when you want to demonstrate a valuable point, you seem to "throw a book" at a question. I'd rather see what your opinion is rather than have to fish through the library system to get a hint of what you're writing about. .*Of course* it would be better to state my opinion and the reasons for it, *if* I feel it will be a productive use of my time. "Throwing a book at a question" is what I do when I don't consider a question to be worth my time and effort, but I don't want to outright refuse to answer it. I especially tend to feel this way when (1) the question was not asked in a friendly, open-minded manner, (2) my opinion involves complex concepts based on knowledge I have painstakingly acquired, (3) it is my impression (correct or not) that the questioner not only doesn't have the necessary background, but has attitudes which would make him/her disinclined to acquire that background, and (4) a dragged-out discussion of the subject would be off-topic in this echo. All of these were the case with your March 16 message to me, "Breeders aren't so bad...". .Note that reasons (1), (2), and (3) are identical to what I now understand to be Dr. Aquino's reasons for refusing to discuss his views on Nazism with Tim Maroney and Zhahai Stewart. Indeed, your recent messages to me have given me far more sympathy for Dr. Aquino than I previously had. However, as I will explain in a message later today, I think that in Aquino's case there were some important countervailing reasons why it would have been in his interests to continue the discussion. I also think that, as a way of backing out of the discussion, "throwing books at" Tim would have come across as far less evasive/guilty-sounding than the maneuvers Aquino used in that "debate". Please note that the *only* parallels I am drawing here pertain to the dynamics of the debate; I am *not* drawing any parallels regarding the issues themselves, or the reasons why you and Tim are asking about the issues. Well, actually, I do *perceive* you to be playing games, just as Aquino *perceived* Tim -- incorrectly, in my opinion -- to be playing games; perhaps my impression of you is incorrect too? .Anyhow, you correctly guessed the word, "visibility". It remains to be seen whether you understand the concepts behind the buzzword, let alone the experiences on which those concepts are based, or the application of those concepts. *If* you really do want to have a discussion with me about sexual minority politics, and about the specific issues I was discussing with Frc, it would be helpful if you could share your understanding of the reasons why visibility is considered important (whether or not you agree with those reasons), so I can more accurately gauge your background. .Also, to make this discussion semi-on-topic and of greater interest to other readers, it would help if we both emphasized the similarities and differences between the oppression of sexual minorities and the oppression of religious minorities -- a comparison which would also help clarify both sets of issues. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 29 Mar 92 17:47:36 Subject: "Breeders" and "illusions of union with the Universe"Sent UpdReq In your March 26 message to me, "Tim agrees with me too!", you wrote, in the context of expressing your feelings about lesbian and gay rights: . AS > BTW, have you noticed the human response to oppression? Which is for the oppressed to oppress when they get in power? .Do you actually believe that lesbians and gay men, as a group, are likely to "get in power" over heterosexuals as a group, and hence that the possibility of lesbians and gay men oppressing straights is a real issue? You seem excessively concerned with this ultra-remote possibility. In your two-part March 24 message, "Visibility", you wrote: . AS > because of the numbers involved and their activity I support gay and lesbian rights struggles (but not to exceed the rights granted *every* citizen *equally*). .Do you think lesbians and gay men are actually seeking any rights that would "exceed the rights granted *every* citizen *equally*"? (Fundamentalist anti-gay activists will sometimes claim this; but it is a completely specious accusation as far as I can tell, at least regarding the vast majority of lesbian and gay activists.) .In your March 16 message to me, "Breeders aren't so bad...", you expressed justified annoyance about a gay man who called heterosexuals "breeders". As you correctly point out, this term is not only insulting but an over-generalization, since not all heterosexuals are breeders. In my opinion, gay men calling heterosexuals "breeders" is an over-generalization of the same type as Setians saying all RHP religions including Christianity are "Nature-worshipping religions" which seek the "illusion" of "union with the Universe" and engage in "self-deceptive antics designed to create such an illusion". .A devout Christian would be justly offended at the notion that Christianity is a "Nature-worshipping religion". However, this notion does *not* constitute Setians oppressing Christians, because Setians as a group are not in a position of social, economic, or political power over Christians as a group. What Setians think of Christianity, however insulting or inaccurate, really doesn't have any harmful effects on the lives of Christians, whereas what Christians think of all other religions *does* have inescapable effects on the lives of all adherents of all other religions in a Christian-dominated country. .It is also quite unlikely that, in the foreseeable future at least, Setians as a group will ever be in a position to oppress Christians as a group. If a Christian were to worry about this possibility, you would rightly dismiss that Christian as paranoid. For exactly the same reasons, your worries about lesbians and gay men oppressing straights seem paranoid to me (*if* in fact you are worried about this). .Lesbians and gay men often do consider themselves an elite, just as Setians consider themselves an elite; but this isn't the same thing as being in a position to oppress. .I suspect that you already realize this; that you aren't *really* worried about lesbians and gay men oppressing straights. Your expressed worries *would be* paranoid if you actually believed them. If you don't believe them, then your comments are just plain defensiveness and rhetorical game-playing; an excuse to pour scorn on the issue of lesbian and gay rights. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 29 Mar 92 17:50:36 Subject: Your contempt for gay and lesbian "cranks"Sent UpdReq In your March 26 message, "Tim agrees with me too!", you wrote: . AS > I let others fight their battles and join only if I see a worthy and supportable cause that I am personally empowered to assist in. Consequencely you'll probably not see me take stands on issues I consider lesser than my own. For example I've been in a huge legal battle with the IRS for almost 10 years. I've represendted myself in federal district court, in federal tax court, sued the IRS once, and worked my way around their fendish grip. To me the issue of personal financial freedom (including personal property) is more important than mouthing a few words in support of alternative lifestyles or of defending some of the many cranks who practice those lifestyles. Yes, I support gays and lesbians, but I don't go out of my way to fight their battles. .I'm not asking you to put energy into the fight for lesbian and gay rights. However, when you do have occasion to discuss the issue (and remember, *you* decided to jump into my conversation with Frc), could you please avoid ignorant-sounding put-downs of the sort that are typical of oppressor groups on the defensive (such as your seeming paranoia about lesbians and gay men oppressing straights, which I discussed in the message I just now posted above, "'Breeders' and 'illusions of union with the Universe'")? .**Of course**, given your situation, the most urgent issue in *your* life is the IRS. But is this a reason to make irrelevant snide comments about other people's concerns, or to play my- oppression-is-worse-than-your-oppression games of onedownmanship? .If you'd like, I can tell you some real horror stories about the oppression of sexual minorities, too. Of course, the horror stories are far less common than the everyday slights; but the ever-present real possibility of the horror stories is what makes the everyday slights more than just slights. Similarly, only a tiny minority of people actually get severely harassed by the IRS; but the IRS's excessive powers are a threat that hangs over us all. .As for "cranks", yes, some lesbians and gay men are cranks; but so too some heterosexuals are cranks; and so what? Doubtless some of the people who get unjustly harassed by the IRS are cranks too, but does this make said harassment any less unjust? .If I wanted to, I could make insensitive snide comments about *your* number-one political concern, too. (For example, many leftists would dismiss "personal financial freedom" as a "petty- bourgeois" concern.) I could also, if I wanted to, make even nastier snide comments about what I guess is your number-two political concern, religious freedom for Setians. (I do hope Dr. Aquino has changed his hair-do since he appeared on Geraldo Rivera several years ago -- speaking of people who, at first glance, give the impression of being "cranks". Oh, well, at least Aquino's hair- do isn't quite as bad as LaVey's non-hair-do.) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 29 Mar 92 17:53:20 Subject: Feminism and you (1 of 2) Sent UpdReq In your two-part March 24 message to me, titled "Visibility", you wrote: . AS > And I am displeased with many women for blaming their political failures on men and the system(s) men have established. Women, if they wanted to, could .You *really* seem eager to deny or minimize all forms of oppression other than those that oppress *you*. .I too believe that feminists, and women in general (and *people* in general, for that matter), often don't come up with the best possible strategies to deal with the problems they're up against. But that isn't a reason to deny that the problems exist, or to deny that the problems have real, external-world causes, or to deny that "the system(s) men have established" leave a lot to be desired. .My disagreements with the more common feminist theories are a bit different from yours, but that's beside the point. .I also feel that, with *very rare* exceptions, a *MAN* is simply not qualified to advise women on how to deal with problems which (because he is not a woman) he has not experienced. To qualify as one of those very rare exceptions, a man would have to be willing to study women's situation *in depth*. He would need to *listen*, with the nondefensive objectivity of the ideal anthropologist, to women's -- especially feminist women's -- own understanding of their own situation. Most men simply have no motivation to do this. And by your own admission, you don't put effort into political causes other than your own -- which is fine with me, as long as you don't consider yourself an authority on causes that are unimportant to you. .(continued next message) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 29 Mar 92 17:55:28 Subject: Feminism and you (2 of 2) Sent UpdReq (part 2 of 2) . AS > I attended a Collaborative Politics class my employer put on. The instructor is Billy Lee (a woman), who teaches her numerous corporate clients (who want more women in their higher ranks) that women struggle against a political system which they think is biased toward men, but in reality has evolved for a two-sexed primate. I took extensive notes, but haven't had the energy to finish transposing them. Maybe that's something I should finish up this summer. Because of this class I think I have a clearer view of politics and think I know something of how the established systems fail--in the numerous granting favors and the inability to deal with changing technologies--which affect present human philosophy. .If you ever do have the energy to transpose them onto the computer screen, I'd be interested to see them. It's possible she has some truly profound and worthwhile insights: it's also possible that she and her clients are just engaging in a sophisticated exercise in denial. Since I haven't seen her specific theories, I'll try to avoid judging them in advance. However, I should point out that lots of women do try to smilingly deny their own oppression as much possible. Lots of women still believe, for example, that rape and sexual harassment can't happen to *them* if they're good girls (just as lots of people believe the IRS can't hurt *them*, or that personal property rights in general don't affect *them*). Besides, most heterosexual women have learned long ago that denial of women's oppression is *SO* soothing to the men in their lives .... .Anyhow, until you do have the energy to finish transposing your "Collaborative Politics" notes, do you see any point to your and my continuing to discuss this topic? I don't. After all, it isn't *your* oppression; it is far less important *to you* than either your religion or your fight with the IRS. It *is* important *to me*, but I don't consider it productive to discuss feminist issues in depth in front of a mostly-male audience. (Since the oppression of women isn't *their* oppression, most men will either be uninterested or react defensively, as you are doing.) And it's off-topic here -- especially since I can't make very many analogies between the oppression of women and the oppression of Setians, unlike the oppression of lesbians and gay men. (Sexism is more like racism than like the persecution of religious or sexual minorities.) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 29 Mar 92 17:57:28 Subject: Why bother answering Tim Sent UpdReq Please see the message I'll be posting below to Ammond Shadowcraft under this subject heading. I would appreciate your comments, if any. .On March 23, I posted a string of messages on this same topic in the OASIS echo to you, Triple Six, Coronis, and Frc. Did you see them? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 29 Mar 92 18:00:10 Subject: Why bother answering Tim Sent UpdReq A while back, you challenged me to give you a good reason why it would have been in Dr. Aquino's interests to have tried harder to reason with Tim Maroney and Zhahai Stewart in MAGICKNET two years ago -- and why I think it would *still* be in Aquino's interests to finally give a straightforward answer to Tim's questions. .All along, there has been a reason which has seemed so obvious to me it didn't seem necessary to mention it. However, I recently did have occasion to mention it in the OASIS echo. I then realized it might not be obvious to you. Here it is: .What kinds of people are more likely than any other kind of people to worry about -- or be prejudiced against -- anything that looks vaguely like "crypto-fascism" or "Nazi sympathies"? Mainly, political leftists and libertarians, i.e. those people who care most deeply about political freedom. Within the occult world, these are the people most likely to *enthusiastically* support a group like AMER. In other words, *once their anti-ToS prejudice has been overcome*, they are potentially ToS's best friends, politically speaking. Even Tim, in his article "The Nazi Trapezoid", expressed outrage at the police harassment of Dr. Aquino. .By refusing to discuss Nazism with people who seem "obsessed" with it, Aquino is thumbing his nose at the very people most likely to care about *his* rights. And by refusing to debate with Tim and Zhahai, he turned down an opportunity to learn how to communicate with this entire, potentially very valuable category of people. (It was indeed a rare opportunity: unlike Tim, most political activists I know would *not* spend time debating with Aquino, but would just dismiss Aquino out of hand after hearing him once.) .Tim isn't just a lone nut. I recently spoke on the phone to one of the editors of GREEN EGG. She has never read Tim's article, nor does anyone on the GREEN EGG staff follow computer networks. But she has exactly the same impressions of Aquino that Tim has, and for a lot of the same reasons, based on her own reading of what she has seen of Aquino's writings. Like Tim, she thinks Aquino sounds "evasive". .Tim's impressions of Aquino -- and the reasons for those impressions -- are quite typical of politically-minded neo-Pagans. It would therefore be in Aquino's interests to learn how to dispel those impressions. .Remember, too, that answering Tim's (and other MAGICKNET participants') concerns about Nazism was Aquino's main initial reason for participating in MAGICKNET in the first place. Given that this was Aquino's main intent, he gave up rather easily. On an issue like Nazism, he should have *expected* some tough questioning. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lady Byron Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 27 Mar 92 07:35:18 Subject: Projects UpdReq B> I suspect it'll be a very long wait before I hear B> about project you don't tell me about. :-) So much for your psychic ability. :)= B> PS: My son wants to know if anyone knows any good B> jokes about blond vampires... Oh, sure. Blame your son for your weird requests. (I'll see what I can DIG up!) Lady Byron :)= 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718