From: Frater Almost Area: Base of Set To: Charles Powers 21 Mar 92 03:25:54 Subject: left-hand? Sent UpdReq Mecca-lecka-hi-mecca-hiney-ho. You are now enlightened. Pax. 93 --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nrrys Area: Base of Set To: Gary Cruser 19 Mar 92 00:00:02 Subject: Re: YOUR CONNECTIONS... Rec'd UpdReq GC>There is a great tract that you could really have some fun with. The GC>cover says, "Satan wants you. Join the cult and recruit others." The GC>inside gives a list of famous people who were supposedly satanists, and GC>some "information" on satanism. You could really stir things up with a GC>few of those. };-) I'm sorry to have to inform you that the phrase "Satan wants YOU!"(r) is a registered trademark of Operation Mindf*ck, Inc., and we really must insist that you use it with the proper capitalization and the (r) sign. Failure to do so in the future will necessitate legal action! You have been warned! Kallisti! NRRYS ___ X SLMR 2.1a X oo e oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: *Northern Lights* Citrus Hts CA *V32* (916)729-0304 (1:203/444) SEEN-BY: 102/943 123/15 125/51 159/700 170/811 203/444 243/2 278/666 308/60 SEEN-BY: 343/56 352/105 9400/0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nrrys Area: Base of Set To: Grendel 19 Mar 92 00:00:04 Subject: Nothing imparticular UpdReq GR> Why shouldn't people respond in an insulting manner?! You may have missed GR>this so let me run it by you again, Tim's modus operandi is to show up, GR>announce the truth, insult anyone who disagrees with him, and then to play GR>the poor victim. I've seen it over and over again and so have most of the GR>people here. Tim will get people to respond to his ideas instead of his GR>insults when he quits insulting people in the first place. Well, as a part time Discordian, I find MUCH power in my inability to be insulted. Insults are a form of LBM, after all. I, alone, am the master of my perceptions! (Feel free to try me. I've had some most productive conversations that way!) Kallisti! NRRYS ___ X SLMR 2.1a X Ask me about my vow of silence! --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: *Northern Lights* Citrus Hts CA *V32* (916)729-0304 (1:203/444) SEEN-BY: 102/943 123/15 125/51 159/700 170/811 203/444 243/2 278/666 308/60 SEEN-BY: 343/56 352/105 9400/0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nrrys Area: Base of Set To: Reuben Radding 19 Mar 92 00:00:10 Subject: "gay basher" Rec'd UpdReq In a message to Diane Vera, you wrote: RR>I've been getting a huge laugh out of it. Me, too! But, then, as a part time Discordian, I have an excuse! RR>You're all a bunch of paranoid fools, and I'm laughing at you. Why, thank you! I try not to take myself seriously. (And there really ARE people out there trying to get me! {So there!}) RR>it tells me something about the mentality at work here and in NIGHTSIDE. We do try to be clear! RR>threaten to give away people's *real* names all over the net, RR>as he recently threatened to do to a fellow from (I believe) RR>the IOT? Have to agree with you here! RR>The Setians on this echo have repeatedly claimed not to "worship" RR>Set. On November 6th, 1988 Michael Aquino was a guest on the TV RR>show Seattle Town Meeting. When asked what "Satan" was, he replied RR>"...a later day perversion or corruption of the god we actually RR>worship." Don't you find the science of Semantics fun? I do! What is worship? I suspect the two usages above have not the same definition! RR>The Setians like to refer to Aquino's book, (vanity pressed) RR>_The_Church_Of_Satan_. I will refer to it also. Aquino claims it RR>is a history book. In his own history book he says (in a letter to RR>John Ferro dated April 12, 1974): RR> MA>"Why do people write history books? They do it because they have RR> MA>an argumentative axe to grind...The first thing I attempt upon RR> MA>opening a new tome, is to pinpoint the motive of the author. RR> MA>Once I find it I make appropriate allowances for bias and then RR> MA>proceed...Assureadly my own interpretations of history are likewise RR> MA>biased." RR>Assureadly. I'm sure "Doc" Aquino would be very disappointed in us if we ignored his advice and didn't use it when reading his books, as well! RR>You all must have very little to do. That was Tao, this is Zen... RR> X SLMR 2.0 X HAIL SATAN!!! I think you need to take your SLMR into the shop for repairs. The tagline generator seems to be stuck! Thou art god! NRRYS ___ X SLMR 2.1a X `Tis an ill wind that blows no minds! --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: *Northern Lights* Citrus Hts CA *V32* (916)729-0304 (1:203/444) SEEN-BY: 102/943 123/15 125/51 159/700 170/811 203/444 243/2 278/666 308/60 SEEN-BY: 343/56 352/105 9400/0 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: David Skreiner Area: Base of Set To: Jonathon 15 Mar 92 22:58:00 Subject: Satanism in General UpdReq > DS>however, is not proven. hitler was _not_ raised or educated > DS>in any jewish tradition. > in his second book, he mentions having had a jewish > upbringing. but does not elaborate at all. oops, did i miss something? i dug up the chapter on hitler in an encyclopedia of mine, and it didn't say anything about his having had a jewish upbringing... just about the speculation/fact that his crazed paranoid hatred of jews stems [what's the past tense for that word?] from his own possibly "tainted", i.e. partly jewish, bloodline. his grandmother, and so on... it's interesting that according to his own system, he himself might have qualified as a "one-fourth jew", who were among the people who got sent into slaughtering camps. dave --- * Origin: Pirate Radio Graz: Radio ZARG, Do 19:00, 99.9 MHZ! (2:316/18) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: David Skreiner Area: Base of Set To: Triple Six 18 Mar 92 20:57:00 Subject: EIGHT.TXT (EIGHT.PAK) UpdReq hi 666, >>> DS> pete carroll writes about black magic (...) > DS> is interested in pete carroll's text. i'd also be quite > DS> interested in how Setians view Carroll's way... i myself have > DS> found this text very helpful in my development, or Xeper (to use > DS> the Setian terminus). here is the section on black magic:) > The "Black Magic" that Pete writes about is not the same thing > Setians mean when they use the term "Black Magic." i [recently] gave up using the term "black" to describe ego-centered magic; i now use "right-hand path". the discussions in here have been quite helpful in my finding out how to name things that i perceive or feel, but for which i found i difficult to find names for. > Carroll is using a system of classification out of convenience--Chaos > magic is not a rigid system in which all types of magic can be so > easily grouped. i already learned so from a chaos magician i know. it was fairly clear to me that the colors can only be an aid in developing and/or organizing my own perceptions. > The "Black Magic" Carroll is writing about is based on the manner in > which the particular magic works within a specified paradigm--the > color associated w/ it is arbitrary. i partly agree. black, though, is frequently associated with death and despair, which makes "working with black" seemingly perfect as a help in acquiring the techniques mentioned. similarly, i have found red helpful for "war" magic [combat magic, appearance magic]. concentrating on the color red, beating drums, flaring fires etc seems to me a good way of influencing the way i appear. [aura?] dave --- * Origin: See the Darkness in the Light... (2:316/18) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: David Skreiner Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 18 Mar 92 21:28:00 Subject: TOS Info (10 of 10)Rebuttal UpdReq > DS> or do you actually enjoy these discussions here? i certainly do, by > DS> the way (grin) |) > Let me put it to you this way, I don't mind be friend's with > Satanists. I don't condone their activities, I highly condemn their > activities, but I like them anyway. i was a bit careful at first, all the usual hysteria about "oh my god, these folks worship Satan...". But when i "tuned in" [appropriate term? :)] to this echo, i found that the points in discussions here often conform with my own views. views that i have held for a long time without being aware that i might have "satanist", or indeed magical, potential. Opposing the usual preconceptions about "black" magic, the Satanism or Setianism i encounter(ed) here has nothing to do with the stuff that's all over newspapers or horror books. [Ever read Stephen King's "SALEM'S LOT"? he has vampires in there, and satanists who sacrifice children etc... this is the stuff that the "masses" like, and which forms their opinions on "Satanism". The book is good reading, though the basically xtian conception of "magic" disturbed me a bit.] left-handed path would, IMO, be more appropriate. which god-forms i worship or "use" is not really essential; other qualities are. [i couldn't paraphrase them better than Balanone did a few weeks ago] > I'm not the type of Christian that is like......stay > away from me. I don't mind be around Satanists and Occultists. some "xtians", esp. J's victims [ooops, witnesses], are very easy to scare away with only a few mentions of magic/satanism... > I do enjoy some of the discussions to a point. I mean it is a > chance to swap information on both sides of the track. most of the Setians in here seem to be very much informed on Xtianity... i also gain quite a few insights from these dicussions... i am in some seminars on "the influence of religion on US politics" at my university now, and i find many of the views discussed in there that i am already familiar with from the SET echo. dave --- * Origin: See the Darkness in the Light... (2:316/18) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: David Skreiner Area: Base of Set To: Jonathon 18 Mar 92 21:38:00 Subject: Satanism in General UpdReq > DS>the book of revelation is a heap of doomsday > DS>gibberish that sounds like if it > DS>has been written under the influence of some very > DS>interesting chemicals. i pity those who believe every word > now, now, you know yhvh would not allow his chosen to take > wine & strange drugs, now, would he? hmmm. a theology student i know described to me some xtian rituals, which involved fasting for three days and then drinking very heavy wine [_not_ mixed with water] during mass. must have had a huge influence on the preachers... what with "will plus trance is the essence of magic" and so on... dave --- * Origin: See the Darkness in the Light... (2:316/18) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: David Skreiner Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 18 Mar 92 22:42:00 Subject: Satanism in General UpdReq Vi> Truth is, you're already in Hell- the one you've made for Vi> yourself. I know it, you know it, and everyone else knows it. Vi> The true reason you're here is because somewhere in your being Vi> is a glimmer of hope that you'll find the way out of your Vi> self-imposed imprisonment. But the Key is in you, not anyone Vi> else. Let yourself out... PR> You are so grossly mislead. I am free. I became free when I was PR> saved, delivered, and healed in March of '91. That is when I received PR> hope. you've become a xtian, you mean...? well. there's still hope... :) ... one in five americans has changed his confession more than twice... how many times have you changed yours already, by the way? PR> If only believing in yourself is your type of philosophy, I PR> want nothing to do with it. When I left God, and tried to do things PR> on my own, I was miserable. When I was without God, that was HELL. I PR> had no hope. When I chose to live my life for Christ, that was when PR> I received hope. it is of little importance which system you base your beliefs on... it is important to find a system that will improve and help your _own_ self. whether you believe in a sort of xtian god or in yourself - the purpose [for you ] may be the same: a system of beliefs. PR> Maybe you haven't read alot of my earlier messages. My main reasons PR> for being in here is for research purposes. yes, of course.... aren't we all... [grin] PR> If I was ever to start being drawn into the Occult or Satanism, PR> I would discontinue my studies immediately! I don't ever want to PR> live a miserable life again! no need to be miserable, even without jesus... dave --- * Origin: See the Darkness in the Light... (2:316/18) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Linda Beebe Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Mar 92 12:04:00 Subject: Re: Satanism in General UpdReq PR> Da> not a place of eternal torment. And I am not scared of a Hell. PR> *** I have a major announcement to make. I made an error. I have PR> said in some of the echos that I thought that many Occultists and PR> Satanists were INTELLIGENT! From your above statement, I no longer PR> think that occultists are PR> intelligent. Either you are not intelligent or you think that I've PR> only been to church twice in my life! *** Mr. Pale Rider... I'm just visiting this section, it's a dull day around my house, and I wanted to see what was happening ...I do not consider myself an occultist or a santanist... but I must speak on this... YOU truly believe there is a burning tormented "hell"...? that is amazing to me... I studied with students in Denver Colo, seminary students of Iliff seminary, and I was taught the orginal meanings to the orginal languages conserning hell in the bible... They meant the grave, a hole, death...end of life... one meant a dumping ground outside the city, where dead bodies were thrown...when NO ONE claimed them... There is a metaphoric, sysmbolic meaning to these words being used in conjuction with what the Bible and Jewish/Christian belief stands for... The message seemed to be a promise of "eternal life"...and to not follow the laws and rule, and later Jesus' teachings, eternal death... the only passage in question to biblical scholors was the story Jesus told of Lazarous... and Jesus often used stories to make his point, and reasoning is, if this one is literal, then all the others would be too... PR> "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them PR> to hell [Greek - Tartarus], putting them into gloomy dungeons PR> [into PR> chains of darkness] to be held for judgment;" PR> 2 Peter 2:4 PR> be finding the words Sheol and Hades. IN this passage, the word hell could be exchanged to grave very easily...and you will find that through out the bible... Do YOU follow your faith from fear, or love? I rationalize this "hell" issue years ago, before I ventured out into alternate ideas and belief...when I was still very much involved with the Christian religion... What good our devotion, to any god, if it is from fear? that isn't the emotion that truly makes people love...or want to be their best in my opinion... sincerely...Linda --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: Purgatory : Xeper! (1:170/811) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Linda Beebe Area: Base of Set To: Astral Invader 20 Mar 92 12:07:00 Subject: Re: Crowley T-shirts! UpdReq AI> LB> * * AI> LB> \____/ AI> LB> V V AI> LB> __ AI> Careful....You'll frighten the mortals.... WHERE'S MY GALIC!!!! --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: Purgatory : Xeper! (1:170/811) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Pale Rider Area: Base of Set To: Linda Beebe 20 Mar 92 21:29:00 Subject: Re: Satanism in General UpdReq LB> Do YOU follow your faith from fear, or love? LB> I rationalize this "hell" issue years ago, before I ventured out into LB> alternate ideas and belief...when I was still very much involved LB> with the Christian religion... LB> What good our devotion, to any god, if it is from fear? LB> that isn't the emotion that truly makes people love...or want to be LB> their best in my opinion... Dear Linda, You said that certain seminaries were teaching that hell is really translated the grave. However, the only people that adopt this teaching is those that belong to sects, or more to the point cults. Those that teach there is going to be no eternal torment, but preach annilation, are also sects. Both JWs and Adventists teach this. But these teaching go totally against the Bible. Plus any suppose Christian group that rejects the idea of the Trinity, or that Jesus was resurrected using the same body are also sects, or more to the point cults. You have to make sure what Bible scholars you are going by. There is alot of Bible-twisting seminaries out there. --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: Purgatory : Xeper! (1:170/811) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Linda Beebe Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Mar 92 23:00:00 Subject: Re: Satanism in General UpdReq PR> You said that certain seminaries were teaching that hell is PR> really translated the grave. However, the only people that adopt PR> this teaching is those that belong to sects, or more to the point They did not translate the orginal language, look it up...look up the words yo quoted in a greek and hebrew dictionary... also the one that starts with a "G", which I can never spell or pronounce correctly...GAHENNA? Something like that...it was a dump... it's in the reference books...unless all reference books are writen my sects and cults? I have found that most people consider any group that doesn't AGREE with their doctrines to be considered sects or cults... What is the church of choice? What is NOT a sect? or cult? IN your opinion...the one you attend? Don't you see that can be as twisted, in ways, as what you are so apalled about on this BBS? TO ME, spirituality, pure and simple, personal relationship with your God as you understand Him, comes when you do it because it's the "right" thing for you to do...not due to rewards, or punishments THAT might happen by and by... it's NOW...today...this minute, that we live...how we behave, how we think, how we treat others, raise our children... conduct business, and other factions of our live, that should be our RELIGION...not laws, rule, doctrines and legalistic fears about the here after... God or spirituality, how ever you choose to look at it, should be IN YOU, not about you, not from a book, or a denomination...or even a preacher or teacher...none of that can tell you more than the direction of your own soul, if you listen... PR> cults. Those that teach there is going to be no eternal torment, but PR> preach annilation, are also sects. Both JWs and Adventists teach PR> this. But these teaching go totally against the Bible. Plus any PR> suppose Christian group that rejects the idea of the Trinity, or PR> that Jesus was resurrected using the same body are also sects, or PR> more to the point cults. The trinity is not bibical...care to quote me chapter and verse? And Jesus was not recongized when he rose, and it states in Mark 16:12...that Jesus took on a different form... besides, were YOU there...? PR> You have to make sure what Bible scholars you are going by. There PR> is alot of Bible-twisting seminaries out there. Tell me 2 things...how old are you and what church has taught you what you know? Sincerely...L --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: Purgatory : Xeper! (1:170/811) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Linda Beebe Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Mar 92 23:26:00 Subject: PS UpdReq I went for the sake of curiousity and looked up hades and sheol in just plane old webster...second college edition... the meanings paraphrased mean..."dwelling place of the dead"...no fire, no torment,...the grave...sheol is also translated as to "dig"...hell was a phrase coined during the King James era which meant a hole, "to hell the potatoes", meant to put them in the ground, in a hole... LOOK IT up... it's there, in black and white... Also, interesting little exercise for you... find where it states in the Bible you go directly to heaven or hell when you die? Also, since I noticed you quote revelations...how do you throw hell and death into the lake of fire...??? since hell is the lake of fire...or is that your second death, you refer to? YOU take away fear from the world, my friend, IN all it's twisted ways, including fears that religion has bestowed onto people, and you would find 2/3 of the worlds problems solved... most every conflict, greed, hate, war and many other problems all stem from FEAR...and to think that is a "godly" emotion, is almost obscene to me...sorry...it simply does not something I contribute to "my God"... sincerely L --- QuickBBS 2.75 * Origin: Purgatory : Xeper! (1:170/811) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Mar 92 08:56:00 Subject: Personal preservation vs mass murder, 1 of 3UpdReq Date: 18-Mar-92 11:04 From: Pale Rider To: Triple Six Subj: Re: Christian Crime TS> PR> But when it comes to Satanic crimes, there is certain Satanic TS> PR> literature that condones illegal activities, right? But then TS> TS> Refererences please. The Modern Witch's Spellbook by Sarah Lyddon Morrison talks about going out to dig up graves to get nails out of the coffins, which is ILLEGAL. It goes into detail on this. Is says just to take a few nails out, because you don't want to really harm the coffin. It says not to take your car out there and shine the car lights on the grave. It says to make sure you cover the grave back up, to a point that it looks like no ones has messed with it, so you can go back out to the same graveyard, or whatever. Despite that this is not a favorite book to the REAL witches, it is still a witch's spellbook found in occult bookstores. There is no end to stupidity, is there? B^) Yes, older books on spells used crap like this. Why? Because such activities deeply impress the human mind. It's also common knowledge that much of the old spell books are trash designed to mislead, and in some cases expose, occults. Plus people go to extremes using the Satanic Bible. "Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other!; smite him hip and thigh, for self-preservation is the highest law!" Book of Satan III:7 Sure, let's contrast that with another well-repsected source... Victims who perish in the conquest of seven nations in Canaan by the Jews under Gods guidance so that the Jews can occupy their lands as God had promised Abraham in Deut 7:1,2. The Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites were all destroyed, every man, woman and child and mercy was shown to none. [Would have made Adolph and Custer feel good.] Amalek and his people, murdered by the edge of the sword, because God wants to fight with Amalek from generation to generation (maybe just for fun). The Israelites win if Aaron helps Moses to hold up his hands. [At times of crisis, God gets whimsical. People are dying everywhere and God wants to see Moses's palms.] Ex 17:11,16 3,000 Israelites die at the hands of their brothers, the Levites, every man, their brothers and their companions. Ex. 32:27 [These were the orders of God who would brook no disloyalty, a self styled "jealous" God.] It appears that whereas your quote above supports the concept of personal preservation, the BIBLE supports genecide and mass murder. Interesting that you strain the gnat and swallow the beam of wood. "Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom- with compound interest liberally added thereunto! Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, aye four-fold, a hundred-fold! Make yourself a Terror to --- QuickBBS 2.75 Ovr * Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Mar 92 08:59:00 Subject: Personal Preservation vs mass murder, 2 of 3UpdReq your adversary, and when he goeth his way, he will possess much additional wisdom to ruminate over. Thus shall you make yourself respected in all walks of life, and your spirit- your immortal spirit- shall live, not in an intangible paradise, but in the brains and sinews of those whose respect you have gained." Book of Satan III:9 Again while the above refers to personal preservation, the below shows to us what the *ancient* Jews, and presently by extension, the Christians of today CONDONE. (After all, if God condones it, how can you NOT condone it?) The Amorites at Hesbon, Israel "took all these cities". Moses sums up the slaughter: "We... utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones." Num 21:25 and Deut 2:34 All the sons and subjects of Og, about whom the Lord said to Moses: "Fear him (the king of Bashan) not, for I have delivered him into thy hand." None was left alive. Num 21:34-35 24,000 Israelites who cohabitated with Moabite women and worshiped Baal. "And the Lord said to Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun..." Num 25:4,9 [Definitely a civil rights violation.] All the males and the kings of the Middianites, because they worshiped idols, and all their wives and male children were sold into salvery. "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, vex the Midianites, and smite them." Num 25:16-17 and Num 31:7-8 The subjects of two kingdoms on the east side of the Jordan, in order that Reuben and Gad might seize the land for their own as a gift from God. Num 32 "Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!" 6th Satanic Statement I see nothing illegial concerning revenge or vengence as long as it is ethical and legal. Please note that my definition of legal is not the same as the public's. These verses are taken to far sometimes. Also, maybe you didn't realize it, but vengeance is somewhat illegal in this country. If someone murders your brother, you can't go out and kill that murderer without being put on trial yourself. Yet the Satanic Bible talks about getting them back....with compound interest. If a burglar is actually in your house, it is illegal to defend yourself with more than EQUAL force. If he has a knife, it is illegal to use a gun on him. Atleast, this is what the Citizens Against Crime says about the laws. Not necessarily true. Have you seen the various SCREW YOU! books? These books tell people how to legally take revenge and how to get away with it. I've used some of these techniques myself. However, there is NO Christian literature that condones illegal activities like this. Unless they are from a Christian sect, or a millitant group that claims to be Christian like some Klansmen, but are not. Sure there is. Read and weep my dear Pale Rider... Moses kills an Egyptian deliberately for beating an Israelite. Ex 2:12 He then becomes God's Lawgiver. One of his commandments straight from God is thou shalt not kill (murder). [Two wrongs don't make a right. Was Moses a murder even before he led the --- QuickBBS 2.75 Ovr * Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Mar 92 09:00:00 Subject: Personal preservation vs mass murder, 3 of 3UpdReq Israelite rebellion??] God tries to kill Moses, because his son by a Middianite woman is not circumcised. His wife, angered, circumcises the boy with a sharp rock and throws the foreskin at Moses's feet. God then lets Moses off the hook. Ex 4:24-26 [God has priorities, including the horrible genital mutilation of young boys.] For "offering strange fire before the Lord", two sons of Aaron, priests of the tabernacle, are struck dead. Lev 10:1-2 [Not to worry, replacements are on the way.] A blasphemer curses the name of God in the wilderness camp, and God orders him stoned to death: "And he children of Israel did as the Lord commanded Moses. Lev 24:23 [The rocky terrain of Palestine broods ill for miscreants and protesters. (Again God could have changed his heart and not killed him.)] Israelites who complain, with good reason, in the desert, are burned with fire by God in the uttermost parts of the camp. Num 11:1 [Evidenlty the Christian God loves the smell of roasting, poaching, baking, broiling or burning human flesh?] --- QuickBBS 2.75 Ovr * Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ammond Shadowcraft Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Mar 92 09:03:00 Subject: Typos and misspellings... UpdReq There were some in the previous articles. I was in a hurry. Sorry! --- QuickBBS 2.75 Ovr * Origin: CRYSTAL CAVE DAS MAGICKAL TREFFPUNKT 719-391-1092 (1:128/50) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Lady Byron 21 Mar 92 19:18:44 Subject: RE: Astaroth Sent UpdReq On March 15, you wrote to Bobby Meizer "RE: Astaroth": . LB > I just recently read in Frater U.D.'s book _Practical Sigil Magic_ that Astaroth is actually a corruption of Astarte. . BM > Astaroth is a "corruption" of Ashtoreth (an ancient Semitic fertility goddess), just as Astarte is a 'Greco-Latinization' of the same name. If you are reliably reporting what Fra. U.D. wrote, then he is thoroughly unreliable in matters of etymology! . LB > Thanks! I wasn't aware of that, but now I am. Any idea how a demon and a goddess both came to be formed from the same name? .It is quite common for the Goddesses and Gods of an old religion to become the demons of a new religion. Remember what happened to Set in ancient Egypt. Christianity, in particular, made a point of declaring that all non-Christian deities were "really" demons. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Frater Almost 21 Mar 92 19:20:08 Subject: Re: Painted Black Sent UpdReq On March 18, you wrote to Lady Byron "Re: Painted Black": . FA > Wait a minute! I thought that I was the only one who crused the Xian book stores for magical inspiration! Weird how shit imitates life! ;) .Well, why *not* cruise the Christian bookstores for magic(k)al inspiration? As a way of "stealing" Christianity's repressed magic(k)al energies, it sure beats stealing wafers.... . FA > Seriously, though, I once read an anti-occult book entitled "He Came to Set the Captives Free." If you see a copy of it you'll know it.... The cover looks like a D&D manual illustration. It was very entertaining and I got quite a chuckle from it. It did, however, inspire me to do some work into natural spirits and/or "woodland demons." Very neato stuff. .Thanks for the info. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Triple Six 21 Mar 92 19:22:00 Subject: Painted Black Sent UpdReq On March 17, you replied to my March 14 message to Frc, "Re: Painted Black": . DV > In my experience, pointing out that Crowley did use Satanic symbolism is often helpful in *reducing* the heat of anti-Satanist bigotry among other kinds of occultists. (I always concede, however, that Crowley was much more than just a Satanist; and I don't claim he was *primarily* a Satanist.) . TS > Yes, A.C. used symbolism from _many_ different paradigms, including Satanism. However, the ultimate goal of his system of Attainment was far from Satanic. Simply using Satanic symbolism doesn't make one a Satanist anymore than a group of teenagers killing a dog inside a Pentagram makes them Satanists. .As far as I can tell, based on what I've read of Crowley's work so far, some of his teachings were "Satanic", and some of them weren't. (Besides using Satanic symbolism, he *did* emphasize individuality and the individual Will, though not consistently.) Satanism has also drawn considerable inspiration from Crowley, as well as vice versa. .You don't *really* want to get into yet another discussion with me about the definition of Satanism, do you? :-) --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Triple Six 21 Mar 92 19:23:42 Subject: You and Tim Sent UpdReq On March 17, you responded to my March 14 message to Ammond Shadowcraft, "You and Tim": . TS > I asked you, sometime back, if you had read all the books on the ToS reading list in the relevant category and you said that you had not. If memory serves, Tim admitted that he hadn't either. What kind of "scientific method" is that? If you want to discuss a "heated" issue in a productive manner, first do your homework. As I've said, I see no point in discussing such matters w/ people who won't get off their ass and do some research of their own. .I don't see why *you* would be particularly interested in discussing this matter with me in any case, since you have repeatedly told me you "don't care what others think", i.e. you are uninterested in public relations. .Anyhow, as I explained to Coronis in OASIS, I'm not interested in studying Nazism and Nazi occult research per se, at least not at the present time. All I'm looking for is (1) enough information to convince Tim (and others like him -- if you think Tim is bad, you wouldn't want to meet some of my political activist aquaintances) that Aquino is not a "Nazi sympathizer" and (2) enough information about ToS philosophy (not about Nazi research per se) to put me on more solid ground next time I have occasion to write another article like my GREEN EGG letter (in which the alleged "Nazi sympathies" issue would be at most a very minor point). I don't think in-depth study is necessary to accomplish either of my two very limited aims. .I've had some very productive conversations with Balanone (who *is* interested in public relations) in the OASIS echo. As a result, Tim has already conceded a number of key points (mostly to me, over the phone, as he hasn't had much time for BBS'ing lately). .Perhaps an analogy might help clarify this situation: Suppose if, in response to your and Frc's recent comments to me about sexual- minority politics, I were to respond by saying you shouldn't say anything about this subject until you've studied it more. Would you consider this a reasonable response? (I did point out to Ammond Shadowcraft that he is ignorant about it unless he's studied it; but I wouldn't, therefore, refuse to answer his questions. Note also that my hypothetical response to your comments is analogous to your response to *my* questions and comments about ToS, *not* Tim's accusations, which were indeed rather rash.) . TS > Whatever you may think, Tim is welcome here, but his attitude and rudeness is not. There are many things I respect and like about Tim, and have had some very productive exchanges w/ him in the past, all though not as many asI would like. Tim could enhance this echo a great deal, if he would only set aside his preconceptions and communicate, rather than simply making accusations and insinuations. .I'm glad you think so, but I've noticed some people have a tendency to rant and rave at him *whenever* he expresses a controversial viewpoint, even when he says it in a reasonable manner. (His manner does vary, though he can be awfully rude sometimes.) . TS > he whines like an underdog. I'm beginning to think he rather enjoys that status .It that is what you think, then why not ignore him? Remember the old joke: "Beat me, beat me!" said the masochist. "No", said the sadist.... --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 21 Mar 92 19:26:40 Subject: Jesus is a slave driver... Sent UpdReq On March 19, you wrote a 3-part message to Pale Rider titled "Jesus is a slave driver...": . AS > When I was a BAC .Me too. Seems most Satanists on these echoes are ex-born-again Christians, unlike the majority of other types of occultists. Makes sense. . AS > Scripture tells us that the truth will set us free, yet Paul tells us he is a slave to Christ. I think we'll all agree that Paul--the Apostle--is also a pattern to be emulated. I can tell you from direct, personal experience that as long as you follow Christ you can *never* be free. You are only free to repress yourself--to mortify your natural members, for religious reasons. Euerka moments, like religious conversion, are potent, but result in little without *continuous* reprogramming. To me this shows the error of the Christian religion. A Christian will remain a Christian only as long as they can be continuously reprogrammed. Such activity demonstrates an artificial, abstract nature. .Very well put. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 21 Mar 92 19:28:22 Subject: Re: Wewelsburg Working Sent UpdReq On March 18 you replied to my March 14 message to you, "Wewelsburg Working": . DV > What aspects of the intellect do the LHP systems "think to suppress"? I always thought the whole point of the LHP was to liberate as many aspects of oneself as possible, within reason. . B > Viewing the evolution of mankind from the animal, and viewing the continuing development of the Initiate into something resembling godhood, it seems apparent that there are various "lower" attributes that need to be left behind in that progression of Initiation. These are attributes that interfere with the assumption of godhood, which interfere with the Awake Being we seek to Become. These attributes include blind emotions and the quasi-automatic responses people have to things. .Yes, indeed. I certainly agree here. . B > They include those attributes for which modern man looks down upon Greek, Roman, and Norse gods. .Actually, *that* seems to me more like a double standard, since the God of the Bible is pretty moody, obnoxious, and capricious too, but for some reason isn't seen that way by most people. In some ways, the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic God is even more unpleasant, e.g. a "jealous God". A major difference is that the Christian God is relatively asexual, which reflects Christian anti-sexual bias; and this seems to be one of the main reasons why Christians despise pre- Christian deities. . B > We have developed a certain /expectation/ of what a god should be. We (Setians) seek to live up to that expectation, and to eliminate those aspects of our being that interfere with such being. [...] My interpretation is that the wrong thing or symptom Anton LaVey had attacked was the unthinking mysticism and blind acceptance of garbage that all too many occultists share, and the blind acceptance of "everything is white light." It's from this point of view that much of the CoS materialism and cynicism arises. [...] The initial years of the Temple of Set then sought to implement/impose Xeper upon the Self, Awakening the magician, identifying those aspects of the Self that were worthy of godhood, and suppressing (or better yet excising) those aspects that were reminiscent of the animal instead. [...] The successful Initiate is painfully honest with the Self. [...] It can't be done by blindly denying or attempting simply to excise an attribute. There are rules of personal development, and the Initiate needs to discover and follow those rules, or the development will often be derailed. .Thanks for the explanation. . B > For a more symbolic treatment of this question, you might remember (or get a copy and watch) _The Forbidden Planet_, item F19A in the Temple's reading list. Much of section 19 of the reading list explores or at least touches upon this area of investigation. .Thanks for the info. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 21 Mar 92 19:30:22 Subject: Re: End of squabble? Sent UpdReq In your March 18 reply to my March 17 message to you, "End of squabble?" . AS > Tim is a big boy, he can fight is own battles. I think it's pretty silly of him to expect you to fight his battles, don't you? .What makes you think he expects any such thing? I defend him when I think he's being wrongly attacked, but I've also had plenty of disagreements with him these days. I've been discussing the alleged "Nazi sympathies" issue with him (both in the OASIS echo and over the phone), and he has conceded a few key points. . AS > Some people just aren't worth having their friendship. You might want to consider this in your future support of Tim. Otherwise, you just might find your cyberspace reputation being pulled into the mud along with Tim's. The choice is your's to make, and the consequences your's to suffer. .I assume that by "consequences", you mean that **YOU** are going to rant and rave at me as well as at Tim. Come on now, the least you can do is take personal responsibility for your own threats! .Could you PLEASE cut out the ranting and raving? As I indicated above: even if no one else around here is capable of productive debate with Tim, **I am**. Would you like Tim to retract his article? It is a real possibility, and it is far more likely to happen if you cut out the ranting and raving. (In your March 12 message to Triple Six, "More Obsessions...", you referred to both Tim and Pale Rider as "an outside, competing influence" who "plays the part of the enemy". I notice that in your debates with Pale Rider, you are able to stay rational -- even though a debate with Pale Rider is far *less* likely to go anywhere than a debate with Tim -- whereas in response to Tim, you get hysterically indignant, as if you are truly terrified of what he has to say. I assume that the latter is not the case, so please stop behaving as if it is.) .On March 15, you wrote a message titled "Let Tim defend himself..." in reply to my March 14 message to you titled "You and Tim": . DV > Have you ever made a point of *studying* the experience (both historic and everyday, personal and political) of oppressed minorities (ethnic and sexual)? If you're a heterosexual white male yourself, [...] you obviously wouldn't know about it from personal experience. . AS > You seem particularly *unqualified* to judge me from your experience of my writing. .If indeed you are more knowledgeable about the situation and experience of minorities (sexual and ethnic) than it would appear from your writings thus far, then please stop hiding your awareness under a bushel when such topics come up. At the very least, please stop playing dumb; please stop reacting defensively to my posts in ways that *appear* to be displaying blissful ignorance of your blissful ignorance. (BTW, lest you misunderstand, you **don't** come across to me as bigoted; just well-intentioned but defensively ignorant about some key issues.) From some of your recent postings, it would seem you do have *opportunities* to learn about these matters (whether or not you make use of the opportunities), e.g. you are married to a "radical" bisexual. Do you ask her for feedback before uploading messages on these topics? (You might have fewer misunderstandings with both Tim and myself if you did.) --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 21 Mar 92 19:33:06 Subject: Breeders aren't so bad... Sent UpdReq On March 16, you wrote me a message, "Breeders aren't so bad..." in response to my March 15 message to Frc, "Re: Demographics of magick-working groups": . DV > Please reflect for a moment on what it means to "wave it in people's faces". Heterosexuals routinely engage in public behavior (such as kissing, flirting, and making comments to co-workers about one's spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend), which, if a lesbian or gay man did exactly the same thing, would constitute "waving it in people's faces". . AS > Do I detect a note of anger here? .Yes, you do (though I'm not angry at Frc personally). And, since you claim to be more knowledgeable about the situation and feelings of sexual minorities than I think you are, would you like to play a little game? Could you please attempt 3 more guesses as to the reason for my "note of anger"? Guess # 1 (that I'm repulsed by straights as "breeders") is incorrect. After all, I myself am bi. .Following is a clue: . AS > I am wondering if you are having an irrational response--sorta' like unconsciously giving a gentle jab in the collective sides of the strayt? .I do feel (perhaps correctly, perhaps not) that the only way I can communicate with *you* on this topic is by giving *you* a few gentle jabs. With Frc, however, I simply wanted to make a point by analogy. Frc and Triple Six were expressing incomprehension as to why sexual minority politics is "such a _big_ issue for some people" (as Triple Six put it to me on March 3). I figured that the best way to get them to understand the feelings of politically-minded lesbians and gay men was to describe a somewhat analogous hypothetical situation affecting heterosexuals. .Please see also my other messages to Frc and Triple Six these past several weeks regarding sexual minorities. I discussed quite a few other issues besides just "public displays of affection". In and of itself, the "PDA" issue is a small matter -- it's just one of many little things that add up to one big thing. . AS > In Colorado Springs, now the home of many thousands of funnymentalist of all types and kinds, PDAs are generally not seen at all. In the Springs there is a strong lesbian community. I hang out at some of their public spots and I don't see PDAs from lesibans. I don't see them griping about not feeling at home because home is where you make it. There are prices for every activity and comfort. Nothing is free. Not giving or getting PDA is a very small price to pay for a growing community. Later things will change, but I'm sure some give-and-take is appropriate. .So, what's your point? What constitutes a symptom of oppression is a different question from what it takes to combat said oppression. I was discussing the former, not the latter. If you were to ask your lesbian friends, "Would you feel more at home in a world where lesbian/gay PDA's weren't any more frowned upon than heterosexual PDA's?", do you seriously think the answer would be "No"? They probably aren't "griping" about it because they don't consider it worth the bother to discuss it with defensive heterosexuals. Anyhow, if you react defensively to "griping" (as you did in your message to me), I'm wondering how you managed to attain your claimed knowledge about the situation of sexual minorities. How else could you learn, if not by listening non-defensively to "griping"? --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 21 Mar 92 19:35:26 Subject: Re: Defining Satanism Sent UpdReq On March 9, you wrote in the second of two replies to my March 7 message to you on "Defining Satanism": . DV > Which two newsletters are you referring to, besides the now-defunct BRIMSTONE? If they're still being published, could you please post their addresses and subscription info, if you have them handy? . B > _Brimstone_ was one. (Thinking back on it, I can't be sure whether the first couple of issues predated the editor's joining the Temple, though I believe they did). The other is _The Watcher_, POB 38-262, Petone, Wellington, New Zealand. The overseas subscription rate is $6 for surface mail, $10 for airmail. That may be in New Zealand dollars, so you might want to write first to verify. .Thanks for the info. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Nrrys 21 Mar 92 19:37:06 Subject: Re: Green Egg letter (2 Sent UpdReq On March 11, you replied to my March 7 message to you "Re: Green Egg letter (2": . DV > Satanism has two such organizations, each of which defines "Satanism" in a way that excludes the other. The Church of Satan says you aren't a real Satanist if you believe in the literal existence of Satan or any deity, whereas the Temple of Set priesthood does believe in the literal existence of Set. On the other hand, ToS defines Satanism as a "Psyche-worshipping religion", as opposed to a "Nature-worshipping religion", whereas CoS preaches what it sees as a "return to Nature" (though it sees "Nature" in far harsher terms than Wicca does). . N > Hmm... thanks for this info! I didn't catch before that COS considers itself a "Nature" religion. .I don't think CoS actually calls itself a "Nature" religion, though it does urge what it sees as a return to "Nature". It isn't a "Nature" religion in the sense that Wicca is, or in the sense that many pre-Christian religions were. However, if one is going to classify all religions as either "Nature-worshipping" or "Psyche- worshipping", I would say LaVey Satanism leans more in the "Nature- worshipping" direction (due to LaVey's love-animals/hate-humans attitude, if nothing else), though it doesn't really fit into either pigeonhole. It is certainly more of a "Nature-worshipping religion" than *Christianity*, which the ToS "General Information and Admissions Policies" document classifies as a "Nature-worshipping religion". .(Don't ask me why ToS considers *Christianity* to be a "Nature- worshipping religion". I'm not a member of ToS. I've asked, and I still don't understand it.) --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 21 Mar 92 19:38:38 Subject: Re: ToS and "Nature" Sent UpdReq Back on February 24 you replied to my February 22 message to you "Re: ToS and "Nature" (2 of 2)": . B > Ah, but to the Christian, "nature" is that which was created by their god. By worshipping their god and his creations, they worship nature and the natural forces spawned by that god. . DV > Christians worship their "God", but they emphatically do *NOT* worship "His" creations. That would be "idolatry". . B > They may not worship nature as directly and devoutly as they worship their God, but I believe the general concepts of "worship" do apply. I will agree that the form and approach of Christianity is very different from earth-centered Paganism. Perhaps a better term would be "Universe-worshipping religion", since in the Christian world-view God is All ."God is All" in the Hindu worldview, but not in the Christian worldview. In the Christian worldview, "God" is very much separate and distinct from his creation. . B > and they worship God, therefore they worship the totality of the universe (not necessarily paying attention to the elements which make up Earth's nature, though they do pray to their God for rain, or sun, or snow, or warmth, or whatever). .Christians do not worship the totality of the universe. The only part of the created universe that Christians consider sacred is the human race, which they believe to have been created "in the image of God". In the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, humans are supposed to "have dominion over" the rest of Nature. Christians "pray to their God for rain, or sun, or snow, or warmth, or whatever", *not* because they believe "God" *is* the universe, but because they believe "God" has more *control over* the universe than humans do. . B > Perhaps we can say they worship the Second Law of Thermodynamics (there being no God)... .What on Earth leads you to say that Christians worship the Second Law of Thermodynamics? The Second Law of Thermodynamics is sometimes used by Christian "creation scientists" to argue that the universe (and the human race) must have been created, because it is too "orderly" to have spontaneously occurred. Are you familiar with the arguments of Christian "creation scientists"? (I'm reminded of them by what I've seen so far of Setian arguments in favor of the idea that human intelligence is the "Gift of Set".) .I still don't see how Christianity can in *any* sense be called a "Nature-worshipping religion". (It isn't a "Psyche-worshipping religion" either; it is something else entirely. Christianity did borrow lots of mythical themes from Nature-worshipping religions, but uses those themes in a completely different context.) .It's possible I'm missing something really profound and important here. More likely, however (and I hope no one will take offense at this), it seems to me that the leaders of ToS, in an effort to distinguish themselves from all other religions, may have developed a vastly over-simplified, reductionistic understanding of what all other religions have in common. Small sects of whatever kind (religious, political, or whatever) do have a tendency to over- generalize about the rest of the world. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Frc 21 Mar 92 19:41:12 Subject: Re: Animal sacrifice Sent UpdReq On March 17, you responded to my March 14 message to Ammond Shadowcraft on "Animal sacrifice": . Frc > I am a member of PETA but I don't hold to many of their core premises! I think they are good for exposing cruel, repetetive and un-necessary experiments involving animals which yield any useful data. I have a video they did called "Un-necessary Fuss" about a federally funded research project involving baboons and chimps re; head injury. It is difficult to watch. By the end, I was slamming my fist on the arm of my chair muttering "F*cking Nazis!" My own opinion is that they are a bit extreme about some other aspects of "animal exploiting", like eating meat or wearing _any_ form of animal garment. I do have a problem with some fur garments, but only because of the particularly cruel way the fur is "harvested" from the animal under conditions of extreme pain and stress (an oil is exuded that "enhances" the feel and "quality" of the fur). .I agree. . Frc > I find it useful to point out to Christian Fundies who (wrongfully, for the most part) parrot the "Satanic animal sacrifice senario" that Leviticus is one long exegisis on sacrifice and mutilation, playing with guts and blood, etc. Even more sickening than most of the false "Satanic sacrifice" stories. And remember, when the Temple of the Jews is rebuilt, this will all be instituted again. Cheery thought, huh? .Yup. .On another subject, thanks for your March 17 message "Re: Demographics of magick-working groups". .Please see also the message I posted to you in OASIS today. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Base of Set To: Pale Rider 20 Mar 92 23:44:02 Subject: Re: RE: Re: Satanism in General Sent UpdReq -=> Pale Rider sent a message to Vitriol on 16 Mar 92 23:00:00 <=- -=> Re: RE: Re: Satanism in General <=- PR> You are so grossly mislead. I am free. I became free when I was PR> saved, delivered, and healed in March of '91. That is when I received PR> hope. If only believing in yourself is your type of philosophy, I want PR> nothing to do with it. When I left God, and tried to do things on my PR> own, I was miserable. When I was without God, that was HELL. I had no PR> hope. When I chose to live my life for Christ, that was when I PR> received hope. Baaaa... I was going to write an in-depth intellectual response to this, even though that's not my thing, but Ammond's response says it better than I would have. I heartily recommend that you try his suggestion. Do you know why Xians gather in groups? Because they're afraid to be alone with their common sense. PR> Maybe you haven't read alot of my earlier messages. My main reasons PR> for being in here is for research purposes. If I was ever to start PR> being drawn into the Occult or Satanism, I would discontinue my PR> studies immediately! I don't ever want to live a miserable life again! 1. I've been reading them for a while now. I just hadn't said anything before. 2. Research, my foot. I see you doing everything but research here. You parrot a lot of unsubstantiated dreck like a good little sheep, and generally get involved in discussions that excite your prurience, like a schoolmarm with a copy of Penthouse. 3. You're already being drawn, or you wouldn't spend so much time here. You can lie to yourself, but you fool no one - not even yourself. 4. You're already (or still) miserable. I'll bet you couldn't go a month without logging on here. Look, I have nothing against you personally. If you want to beleive in some Corn Dog In The Sky (a weenie on a stick) can make you happy by giving you a lobotomy, fine. At least you're not worshipping your own puffed up ego, like some around here. But don't expect everyone to go running for the mustard just because you claim that Weenieism is The Way. _O_ | ... Thou Hast No Right But To Do Thy Will --- Blue Wave/Max v2.05 * Origin: BaphoNet Classic: 718/499-9277 (1:278/666.0) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Ammond Shadowcraft 21 Mar 92 23:07:52 Subject: Sexual minority politics Sent UpdReq Re-reading my messages earlier today, I realize that I come across as vaguely pissed off, and that my messages are far from clear as to just what's bugging me -- quite apart from my deliberate guessing game regarding one of the issues. .So, let me clearly state the main thing that's bothering me: the arrogant, know-it-all tone of your messages to me. In my messages earlier today, I adopted a somewhat arrogant tone too, which probably wasn't the most productive possible response. If you want to discuss my thoughts and feelings about sexual minority politics, please cut out the know-it-all rhetoric, and let's both try to avoid sermonizing. Okay? .By the way, the above paragraph does not contain the answer to my guessing game, but it does contain an important clue.... --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Triple Six 21 Mar 92 23:09:30 Subject: S/M and the Abrasax article Sent UpdReq On March 3, you replied to my March 1 message to you, "Radding": . DV > Please note that I get a lot of unwanted mail, and some of it I don't even look at. To make sure I open your letter, please include the name "Triple Six" in your return address, so I'll know who it's from. . TS > No prob. .Thanks. I look forward to receiving it. Let me know how much it costs you. . TS > Do you like young guys? };->> .How young? --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 21 Mar 92 23:12:22 Subject: Re: Defining Satanism Sent UpdReq On March 9, you replied to my March 7 message to you, "Defining Satanism": . DV > Until more of these "unorthodox" Satanists become more visible, it is premature (and inconsistent with "orthodox" Satanism's emphasis on individuality) to define Satanism by any standard narrower than what I proposed in my debate with Reuben Radding in NIGHTSIDE: A Satanist is anyone who, as a central part of one's religious outlook, relates in a sympathetic way to the god-form of "Satan", whatever the individual perceives that to mean. . B > Perhaps, but I think you and I are looking at this situation from opposite directions relative to the arrow of time. I think that eventually, when enough other responsible Satanists have come forth so that there is a recognizable Satanic commonality broader than that of the ToS and CoS, then "our" definition probably will broaden. But without those examples that we can point to (more than just a few isolated nerds on BBS networks), I think we need to be (temporarily) more restrictive concerning what we tell the Media about Satanism. Your point of view seems that since these people are (or will be) out there, we need to use the broader definition of Satanism now, even though we can't point Geraldo in their direction as an example of what /we/ mean by Satanism, while Geraldo is pointing at child abusers and murderers as examples of what /he/ means by Satanism. .The only problem is, not many people are going to *accept* the (two mutually contradictory) officialese definitions of "Satanism", because they simply doesn't make sense as definitions. It sounds downright silly to say, "Those criminals aren't Satanists because we and only we have the right to define what a Satanist is, and they don't fit our definition". (To educated Christians, such statements are reminiscent of the kinds of silliness their own churches have outgrown within recent history.) .It is more convincing to say things like, "There aren't in fact very many "Satanic" criminals; and all studies have shown that such criminals are psychopaths first, and are not motivated by religion. Therefore, religious Satanism should not be judged by their behavior, which all Satanist organizations specifically prohibit." In an earlier message to you on this topic, I spelled out a number of related arguments. .These are essentially the same points which you seem to think cannot be effectively made without a narrow definition of Satanism. I believe these very same points can be made *better* without such a narrow definition. Better, because it avoids the appearance of playing word games. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Base of Set To: Balanone 21 Mar 92 23:14:10 Subject: Re: Satanic symbolism Sent UpdReq On March 10, you replied to my March 7 message to you, "Re: Satanic symbolism": . B > Satan's name may be known to everyone in modern western civilization, and so it can be used as a powerful egregore, but except for those of a Christian background who are trying to reconcile those parts of their selves which they had been taught to suppress, I don't see the *relevance* of Satan in a technologically advanced world. .I don't see how the god-form of Satan is any less relevant to a technologically advanced world than to any other kind of world. The advance of technology doesn't seem to have helped most people kick the demonization habit. . B > Maybe it's my Jewish background -- Satan didn't mean much to me while growing up. Satan's more like the boogie-man which Christians use to scare little children with. .Unfortunately, Satan is the boogie-man they scare the *adults* with. . B > Does this mean I'm not a Satanist by your definition? .That depends how important it is to *you* to call yourself a "Satanist". If the word "Satanist", and hence the name "Satan", is crucial to your religious self-definition, then you are indeed relating to the god-form of Satan, as a central part of your religious outlook, even if you don't specifically invoke him in ritual; and hence you are a Satanist by my definition. On the other hand, if you call yourself a "Satanist" merely because you happen to belong to a Satanist organization, but you really wish it would call itself something else; or if you call yourself a "Satanist" merely to avoid looking defensive when fundamentalists insist on applying that label (which they apply to *all* forms of occultism, not just the "LHP"); then you are not a Satanist by my preferred definition. .How seriously would your feelings be hurt if someone said you were not a Satanist? --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666) SEEN-BY: 278/666 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718