From: Tim Maroney Area: RPSTOVAL To: Serpens 25 Apr 92 10:13:12 Subject: RE: Re: RE: RE: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIAN One revelation from my Thelema Lodge period was that cruelty has a benign aspect. It is the foundation of most humor. Ergo my comment to you a little while back about the nine of swords. If you want a rumor mill, the phone should be good enough. The cost of long-distance calls would almost insure that any information you got would be rushed, partial, and careless. Only then would you truly be plugged into the O.T.O. group consciousness. Benet's Reader's Encyclopedia doesn't have an entry for Arlecchino. Therefore, I can only assume it is another of your malicious fabrications. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: RPSTOVAL To: Gerald Del Campo 25 Apr 92 10:25:54 Subject: RE: Re: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIANITY I think you've mistaken the character of Israel, which has more to do with the concrete history of the Jewish people than with Judaism as a religion. Most Israelis are fairly secular, and there are only limited incursions into the law. The ultra-orthodox keep trying -- the fact that they hold the swing vote between Labor and Likud gives them a power disproportionate to their numbers -- but overall it's not a state based on Judaism the religion. GdC> What if Thelema was to become that "thing" whereupon we base our moral values? People don't really pay any attention to morality, I've found. People act in way that seems to them to serve their own interests, and (if pressed) may come up with some rationale which tries to reconcile their actions with their moral code. I can hardly think of a single case in which someone decided to do something or not do something based on morality. Thelemic morality, being even vaguer than taboo-based moral systems, is pretty easy to reconcile with any action whatsoever, so it provides even less guidance. Still, the idea of trying to derive, say, a legal system from "Do what you will" and attendant principles such as non-restriction is not prima facie absurd. Let's say that all law was reduced to a few quotes from the Book of the Law and an enumeration of known rights such as Liber OZ. You would still need courts when there seemed to be cases of restriction. These courts would rapidly generate a large body of precedents. If precedents were not binding, then no one would ever known where they stood legally with respect to a particular action, and the system would be whimsical in its application. Hardly an improvement. If precedents were binding, then they would serve pretty much the same function as law and precedent do today, being a twisty maze of convoluted rules in a specialized language. Again, it's hard to see how this would be an improvement. GdC> The O.T.O. does not represent a political party, or idea....yet. Really? It's set up as a government. It seems to me that it's an alternative government for the membership, co-existing with the temporal government. The offices and the organization, as well as regulations against members resolving their dispute through the mundane authorities, seem pretty clear on this point. That being the case, it's reasonable to look to the O.T.O. for an example of what Thelemic government is like. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: RPSTOVAL To: Frater I.o.s.p. 25 Apr 92 10:28:40 Subject: RE: JEWELRY OFFER Do you have a discount for banned ex-members? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: RPSTOVAL To: Tony Iannotti 25 Apr 92 10:30:42 Subject: RE: Re: RE: THELEMA WITH Heidrick showed my priestess a letter from Lady Harris after AC's death saying that no one seemed to know who the head of the Order was, since Gardner seemed to have dropped out of sight.... Haven't seen it myself, so I can't vouch for its authenticity or for the accuracy of this account of its contents. I'll have to look it up on one of my frequent visits to Bill's house... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: RPSTOVAL To: Tim Maroney 25 Apr 92 10:55:54 Subject: RE: Re: RE: RE: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIAN In a message to Serpens written on Saturday, April 25, 1992 at 10:13:13, Tim Maroney writes: TM> Benet's Reader's Encyclopedia doesn't have an entry for Arlecchino. TM> Therefore, I can only assume it is another of your malicious fabrications. Don't you read Harlequin romances any more? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Serpens Area: RPSTOVAL To: Frater I.o.s.p. 26 Apr 92 20:41:02 Subject: Re: WELCOME! Care Frater - 93. I thank you for the right brotherly hospitality of your invitation. I hope to take you up on it, showing the proper demeanour of the guest ("SO, ya got cable?"). Da guys are all afroth for initation, so I am myself afroth to hear fom the honored Lodge Master so that the wheels can be set in motion. The core down here is (it seems to me, as shouldn't say it) very solid gold, not even counting the overweening wight who has proposed himself Camp Master. I think we can do good by the Order. Look forward to seeing you. Paul 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Tim Maroney 27 Apr 92 18:30:18 Subject: RE: Re: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIANITY In a message dated 25 Apr 92 10:25:54, Tim Maroney wrote: GdC> What if Thelema was to become that "thing" whereupon we base our moral GdC> values? TM> People don't really pay any attention to morality, I've found. You are much too correct in your observation, but one can hardly blame one; especially if that moral conduct goes against the principles of comon sense, or no longer applies to society as a result of evolution. TM> People act in way that seems to them to serve their own interests, and TM> (if pressed) may come up with some rationale which tries to reconcile TM> their actions with their moral code. I can hardly think of a single case TM> in which someone decided to d something or not do something based on TM> morality. Again I agree. However, people are FORCED to participate in this rediculous laws every day. They have no choice but to live their lives in accordance to that law for fear of inprisonment. Anyone who tries to diverce themselves from these laws is seen as anti-social outcasts; i.e. most of my friends. TM> Thelemic morality, being even vaguer than taboo-based moral systems, is TM> pretty easy to reconcile with any action whatsoever, so it provides even TM> less guidance. Absolutely. But would you consider any interpretation of the Thelemic Law as un-Thelemic? I am torn up in this dilema; there is much in Liber AL regarding interpretation, pro AND con. TM> Still, the idea of trying to derive, say, a legal system from "Do TM> what you will" and attendant principles such as non-restriction is not TM> prima facie absurd. Let's say that all law was reduced to a few quotes TM> from the Book of the Law and an enumeration of known rights such as Liber TM> OZ. You would still need courts when there seemed to be cases of TM> restriction. These courts would rapidly generate a large body of TM> precedents. If precedents were not binding, then no one would ever known TM> where they stood legally with respect to a particular action, and the TM> system would be whimsical in its application. Hardly an improvement. This would be best left to philosophers of Oour Lawto work out. While we don't have a solid "principle" to go by as of yet, we DO have some obvious clues as to what is unlawful to us. Murder, for example, is a violation of one's will, being that the nature of Will is Freedom and you would be locked up for your actions. The other obvious example is that since the nature of Will is also Life, then taking ones life for any other reason than self defense, or some other justifiable cause, would also be in violation.domThe precedents would have to be binding...unless of course, any such action is deemed unThelemic (again, I am torn in this). TM> If precedents were binding, then they would serve pretty much the same TM> function as law and precedent do today, being a twisty maze of convoluted TM> rules in a specialized language. Again, it's hard to see how this would TM> be an improvement. I believe that what is wrong with our current system (in this regard) is that there are many loop-holes purposely left in the wording to benefit certain special interest groups, like the rich for example. If things were worded properly, law makers and attorneys would become almost obsolete...and what a wonderful world that would be . GdC> The O.T.O. does not represent a political party, or idea....yet. TM> Really? It's set up as a government. It seems to me that it's an TM> alternative government for the membership, co-existing with the temporal TM> government. The offices and the organization, as well as regulations TM> against members resolving their dispute through the mundane authorities, TM> seem pretty clear on this point. That being the case, it's reasonable to TM> look to the O.T.O. for an example of what Thelemic government is like. It is not an alternative government because we are not free to express/manifest the Law on which our Constitution was based: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. We are still forced to obey by silly, obsolete laws whose main purpose is to enslave. Did you know that oral and anal sex are illegal in some regions? The OTO government does not operate freely due to the fact that it must "conform" in order to keep that tax exemption religious organization status...it is not a good model, but the only one we have for now. Also, you can only expect so much from our Thelemic Government; it consists of about 8 or 9 people. 93 Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Tim Maroney 27 Apr 92 23:40:18 Subject: RE: Re: RE: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRI In a message dated 23 Apr 92 10:48:16, Tim Maroney wrote: TM> Consciousness modification has always been an interest of TM> the few. What will happen to make it an interest of the many? Historically we can see changes in consciousness occuring on massive scales. Why would one need to be interested in evolution in order to evolve? TM> What will the effect on society be? Well, my observations of the TM> O.T.O. indicate that people who spend a lot of time modifying their TM> consciousness tend to be less productive in an economic sense. If this TYM> holds true, then the impact on society would be a negative one, as TM> standards of living would decline. What about impacts on political and TM> economic systems? That is a good question. I think the reason most OTO people are broke is a result of buying over-priced books and partying to hard >;) It is also possible that people on a religious path may not care so much about money/working because it cuts into their study time. Many people quit the pursuit of material goods in exchange for spiritual knowledge. I don't think that the study of the religious aspects of Thelema is exempt. What are your thoughts on this? TM> away from centrism towards extremist views like fascism and anarchism, I beleive that the transition will be rather chaotic and anarchistic as well. but I see it followed (hopeful grin) by self-impossed discipline. TM> with a growth in social strife and a rise in grand and doomed political TM> experiments drawn with a visionary rather than a pragmatic eye. Hasn't the visionary always led the pragmatic? Love is the Law. Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Serpens 27 Apr 92 23:51:18 Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIAN The 11th Commandment: Thou shalt not move from one residence to another without first notifying the editors of the RPSTOVAL Review. Now you must do 11 LBR's and 6 Star Ruby's for your sins. >:-) Love is the Law. Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Darrin Hyrup 28 Apr 92 00:01:18 Subject: Re: LIBER OZ To Darrin, Saracen, Ann, et al. About Liber OZ: Crowley wrote that during WWII, during a time when many people (young kids) were leaving forever, never to come back home. Now, I am not insinuating that Crowley gave a rats behind about the soldiers who died in that battle for Freedom (although I have a hunch that being the lover of Freedom that he was he might have seen the effort as an honorable quest); my only statement is that I beleive he was reporting what he saw. Men DO kill eachother on the violation of one or many of the rights laid out in Liber OZ, no? Sometimes it is important to find out what was going on historically when one reads another's writings. Love is the Law. Gerald. P.S. Thanks for bringing it here ;') ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Darrin Hyrup Area: RPSTOVAL To: Gerald Del Campo 28 Apr 92 04:51:18 Subject: Re: LIBER OZ In a message dated Tue 28 Apr 92 00:01, Gerald Del Campo wrote: GDC> About Liber OZ: GDC> Crowley wrote that during WWII, [...] GDC> Sometimes it is important to find out what was going on historically GDC> when one reads another's writings. I was aware of that actually, considering we had discussed it in the past. However I believe it goes beyond what was going on historically. The rights of man deserve careful examination, and Crowley gave us a damn good place to start! :) 93, Darrin 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718