From: Saracen Area: RPSTOVAL To: Myerra 25 Apr 92 21:03:16 Subject: LIBER OZ Myerra says (for background on discussion) > I finally read Liber Oz. I liked it until the part that says > "5.Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights. > 'the slaves shall serve'--AL. II. 58 " > Does this mean what it appears to??? > Let's talk about it soon! from a second reply... > It's the killing > thing I have a hard time with. I'm against capital punishment, so I > can't find a rationale foe this statement except to say that I don't > agree with it. And I am for capital punishment...if for no other reason than the fact that someone who is dead can -not- kill anyone else. However I only support it in cases where they are proven guilty without a shadow of a doubt...so I do support how difficult it is to get the Death Penalty as it stands. But then the question of self defense also comes in...is it fair to kill someone in self defense? (more on this later) > If everyone killed the people that stood in their > way, there would be far fewer people around, and then since there would be far fewer people getting in each others way...and eventually people would not stand in each others way ond only do their own Will. Scary scenario...but...do you propose other solutions?, the other solutions that scare me are...global warfare, mass famine, mass disease...look at world politics and tell me that these things are not going on, and how they are better than survival of the fittest. I personally do -not- like it, and would prefer that it not come to this...but I see that it has already started...:'/ > and that would mean > there would be no challenges to get what we want, nothing to compare > freedom to...so how would we KNOW we were free? What if there is no other way to change them so that they will stop imposing their will on yours...particularly in the case where they are trying to kill you...or otherwise attempting to do such greivious harm to you that they might as well kill you? Also without basic rights, is life worth living? Is it not fair to kill those who would make your life not worth living? As far as how we KNOW we were free...because we would be healthy and happy. Also because we would have the right to chose. > I like working for > my rights, since to me, they are sweeter when I make it through the > challenges. If I could kill anyone that I thought was blocking > me...I'd have nothing to learn from. You seem to think that killing someone is an easy thing to do...I would think that it most definately would -not- be (think, because I have never done so). If you love that person...Love is the Law, Love under Will...how can it be easy? As far as working for your rights...that is all fine and dandy in a state where the people have more sense than a herd of sheep and make intelligent decisions, and the individual has a say in hir government...do you think that these two things are true in the United States? But if the sheep could care less, and those who do care have no power...what are the alternatives? Two things I would like to add to this... What is your opinion on what happens when someone dies? Do you think that there is a population problem as things currently stand?...and if you do, by what method do you propose to decrease the population (particularly taking into account those who will refuse to any limits on procreation)? Many questions, yes...answers, I doubt it :}/2 but I do enjoy discussing these things with you. Love is the Law, Love under Will Ann p.s. I was given explicit permission to move this thread out of e-mail... thought some of the rest of you folks would be interested. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Blake Area: RPSTOVAL To: Frater I.O.S.P. 26 Apr 92 04:26:24 Subject: Jewelry Offer =========================================================================== BBS: Mysteria Date: 04-22-92 (03:44) Number: 50 From: FRATER I.O.S.P. Refer#: NONE To: ALL Recvd: NO Subj: JEWELRY OFFER Conf: (27) Rpstoval ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ FI> --- Notice --- FI> Is Offering A Full Line of Mythological/Mystical/Magickal/Decorative FI> Jewelry. once is enough twenty times is to many & i noted you missed posting it on the PAGAN FOR SALE echo, which is probably where it ought to have been posted in the first place JONATHON * SLMR 2.1a * WARNING ! SAFESEX.ZIP is a Trojan 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Darrin Hyrup Area: RPSTOVAL To: Saracen 26 Apr 92 13:41:18 Subject: Re: LIBER OZ Greetings Saracen, Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. In a message dated 25 Apr 92 21:03:16, Saracen wrote: S> p.s. I was given explicit permission to move this thread out of e- S> mail... thought some of the rest of you folks would be interested. Thanks Ann, this is definately food for thought! S> Myerra says (for background on discussion) > I finally read Liber Oz. I liked it until the part that says > "5.Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights. > 'the slaves shall serve'--AL. II. 58 " > Does this mean what it appears to??? > Let's talk about it soon! It says that MAN has the right to kill those who would thwart their rights to freedom. I agree with that. However, because it is your right, doesn't mean it is mandatory. Nor does it neccessarily mean Man as in the individual, but rather at may be referring to the whole of mankind, in reference to mass murderers, criminals, sex offenders, etc. S> from a second reply... > It's the killing > thing I have a hard time with. I'm against capital punishment, so I > can't find a rationale foe this statement except to say that I don't > agree with it. S> And I am for capital punishment... if for no other reason than the S> fact that someone who is dead can -not- kill anyone else. However I S> only support it in cases where they are proven guilty without a shadow S> of a doubt... so I do support how difficult it is to get the Death S> Penalty as it stands. But then the question of self defense also comes S> in...is it fair to kill someone in self defense? (more on this later) I agree with your statement here. I also whole-heartedly support the right to self-defense, and if it came down to it, I would kill someone in self-defense if there was no other choice. But, of course, if there was a better way, I would try to find it first. > If everyone killed the people that stood in their way, there would be far > fewer people around, S> and then since there would be far fewer people getting in each others S> way... and eventually people would not stand in each others way ond S> only do their own Will. Which assumes they know their Will ahead of time. It is the rights of MAN and Kings, not neccessarily of the slaves, who usually do not have any idea of what their Will is, if they even realize that they have a Will. S> Scary scenario... but... do you propose other solutions?, the other S> solutions that scare me are... global warfare, mass famine, mass S> disease... look at world politics and tell me that these things are S> not going on, and how they are better than survival of the fittest. S> I personally do -not- like it, and would prefer that it not come to S> this...but I see that it has already started...:'/ Yeah, that's what we get for the complacentcy of the people. If we all stood up for what was right, rather than taking the easy path, we might have a world we could be proud of! > and that would mean > there would be no challenges to get what we want, nothing to compare > freedom to...so how would we KNOW we were free? S> What if there is no other way to change them so that they will stop S> imposing their will on yours... particularly in the case where they S> are trying to kill you... or otherwise attempting to do such greivious S> harm to you that they might as well kill you? In those cases, the one who's Will is true will be the victor. "As brothers fight ye." While it is true that we as humans need challenge, and a perspective for comparison (what is freedom without repression?), there will always be those who try to repress others, its an unfortunate side effect of the ego. So, I don't think we're in any immediate danger of losing perspective. S> Also without basic rights, is life worth living? Is it not fair to kill S> those who would make your life not worth living? Surely. S> As far as how we KNOW we were free...because we would be healthy and S> happy. Also because we would have the right to chose. People can be healthy (and even happy) in captivity. But that is not neccessarily my definition of freedom. > I like working for my rights, since to me, they are sweeter when I make > it through the challenges. If I could kill anyone that I thought was > blocking me... I'd have nothing to learn from. S> You seem to think that killing someone is an easy thing to do... I S> would think that it most definately would -not- be (think, because I S> have never done so). If you love that person... Love is the Law, Love S> under Will... how can it be easy? While I may love mankind, and that part of every person who is the goddess (and god for that matter), I do not feel it would be extraordinarily difficult to defend my life, at the expense of the life of my opponent, if it was really necessary. Again, that being the only reason I would do so. S> As far as working for your rights... that is all fine and dandy in a S> state where the people have more sense than a herd of sheep and make S> intelligent decisions, and the individual has a say in hir government... S> do you think that these two things are true in the United States? Well, we are not all idiots but, as it says in Liber AL; "the slaves SHALL serve." Its up to us who are not sheep to do our part. As for our say, there is always protests, petitions, letter writing campaigns, lobbying, voting (to some degree), phone calls to representatives, etc. S> But if the sheep could care less, and those who do care have no power... S> what are the alternatives? Work towards changing the rules so one or both of the above are no longer true. S> Two things I would like to add to this... S> What is your opinion on what happens when someone dies? You mean, like in reincarnation? Seperation of the Ego? That kind of thing? S> Do you think that there is a population problem as things S> currently stand?... and if you do, by what method do you propose to S> decrease the population (particularly taking into account those who S> will refuse to any limits on procreation)? Yes, I believe there is a population problem. The best solution would be to educate the people so that they understand the limits of reason, and would perhaps choose not to have kids, or if they did to only replace themselves, and no more. (1 or 2 kids.) Those who refuse to listen to reason are the problem. It would be nice to say that we just impose forced sterilization after 2 kids, but that's not very Thelemic. However, sometimes the good of the many outweighs the wants of the few. :) I have no real good solution. S> Many questions, yes...answers, I doubt it :}/2 but I do enjoy S> discussing these things with you. Glad you decided to share these questions and comments with the rest of us! Love is the law, love under Will. Darrin 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718