From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Tim Maroney 22 Apr 92 22:50:18 Subject: RE: Re: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIANITY In a message dated 20 Apr 92 09:48:57, Tim Maroney wrote: > what do you think a world wherein Thelema is the principle > conduct would be like? TM> To me, the question makes little sense. It's like asking what a TM> world would be like where friendly user interfaces were the "principle TM> conduct". Thelema neither bakes bread nor nourishes children. Does Xtianity? As a Spiritual/Social system, how does Xtianity differ from Thelema. In other words, why do you feel that Thelema is not capable of becoming in the New Aeon what Xtianity was in the old? TM> It is a technology for attaining unusual conditions of consciousness. Is that all? I know some drugs that do those things; if this is all that there is to this phylosophy, then why bother? Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Frater Ehubi 22 Apr 92 22:57:18 Subject: Re: RE: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHR In a message dated 20 Apr 92 21:27:13, Frater Ehubi wrote: FE> 93, Gerald and all... Greetings Ehubi! FE> Gerald, you stated in a reply to the Timster that you feel Thelema FE> is incompatible with dictatorship. While I agree with your other FE> comments in that letter, I strongly disagree with this one. I think FE> dictatorship is one of the most natural forms of government under the FE> "lower" manifestation of Thelema, which approaches in the limit the FE> law of the jungle. The few, proud, keen, etcetera shall be Kings; FE> the slaves shall serve. I agree. But I also read something in there about striving for the "higher" manifestation of The Law. I see it as warning towards apathy; what will be if we don't act and take advantage of the "current". It's like the provervial Army Sargent saying: "These toilets are going to be cleaned. I can clean them with your face, or you can clean them yourselves; but they will be cleaned one way or another". FE> Don't get me wrong -- this is not the *only* way things can turn out, nor FE> is it the way I *want* them to turn out - it is simply an alarmingly FE> probable society given the morality of Liber AL (not that it isn't also FE> empirically quite probable under Christianity...) You can say that again. Like I stated above; Thelema is here, and I believe that it will become stronger as a force as we travel deeper into the Aeon (kinda hard to explain without falling into the interpretation of Liber AL trap). It IS possible that the people who interpret the Law as condoning irresponsability, or as an excuse to do whatever the hell they want to, might get the first chance at applying the Law. If that happens I will move to Venus ;) FE> Witness as evidence the organization of the only large organization FE> officially practicing Thelema. The OTO is a monarchy, pure and FE> simple. and while mechanisms are in place to help keep it a FE> benevolent monarchy, such mechanisms have a sorry history indeed. Again I agree with you and with Tim here. But I see the shortcomings of the organization to be more the result of undedicated membership. There are a handful of individuals trying to juggle all of the responsibilities, who have something invested...something to lose. This lack of dedication is easier seen in local bodies, where everyone wants to eat your food and drink your beer but no one wants to help do the dishes or prepare the feast. (Sorry Paul, I had to borrow that one ;) FE> I hope that our generation can help steer the world into a Thelemic FE> society of mutual respect for rights and tolerance of diversity. I FE> just don't think that is is inevitable, or even easy to accomplish. SO mote it be! FE> There are *many* ways to do Thelema! OK. So let's discuss them >;) Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Bobby Meizer 23 Apr 92 00:11:18 Subject: RE: Re: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIANITY In a message dated 20 Apr 92 19:18:42, Bobby Meizer wrote: BM> There were several different 'Missing Link' producers, but at least BM> one issue BM> was seen to appear out of Leroy's briefcase on one occasion when he BM> was BM> accompanying Lon to the Bay Area. Also, Alan Cabal is said to have BM> been BM> involved with at least one of them... Are any of these available in electronic form? I'd volunteer to typing them up if you had hard copies (smiling patiently) ;) Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Tony Iannotti 23 Apr 92 00:17:18 Subject: RE: Re: RE: THELEMA WITH Rec'd In a message dated 22 Apr 92 22:12:12, Tony Iannotti wrote: TI> There were at least three Missing Links, and one Magickal Stink, TI> but I think they were all done by different people. Only the Magickal TI> Stink was from outside California. Wonderfful! Where can I get copies of these things? BTW. I thought some one on the MagickNet triad had mentioned that the OTO had something on microfilm, a letter perhaps, from Crowley to Gardner which could prove Crowley wrote the rites for Gardner. Is this true? Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: RPSTOVAL To: Gerald Del Campo 23 Apr 92 09:34:00 Subject: RE: Re: RE: THELEMA WITH Sent UpdReq GDC> TI> There were at least three Missing Links, and one Magickal Stink, GDC> TI> but I think they were all done by different people. Only the Magickal GDC> TI> Stink was from outside California. GDC>Wonderfful! Where can I get copies of these things? I have copies around somewhere, but I filed each one under the author, rather than the title, so you might want to try around elsewhere first. GDC>BTW. I thought some one on the MagickNet triad had mentioned that the OTO GDC>had something on microfilm, a letter perhaps, from Crowley GDC>to Gardner which could prove Crowley wrote the rites for GDC>Gardner. Is this true? Not that I know of. We have pictures of the Camp certificate, giving him, as a PI, to have a Camp of Minervals, but that's the closest I can think of. (there is a letter from AC to Germer saying that a Dr. Gadner would be starting a group, but no word beyond that.) * SLMR 2.1a * --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E-- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: RPSTOVAL To: Gerald Del Campo 23 Apr 92 10:02:14 Subject: RE: Re: RE: THELEMA WITH Sent UpdReq GDC> BM> There were several different 'Missing Link' producers, but at least GDC> BM> was seen to appear out of Leroy's briefcase on one occasion when he GDC> BM> accompanying Lon to the Bay Area. Also, Alan Cabal is said to have GDC> BM> involved with at least one of them... GDC>Are any of these available in electronic form? I'd GDC>volunteer to typing them up if you had hard copies (smiling GDC>patiently) ;) I'll see how many I can dig up, but everyone else should liook too, since some are filed in my personal files, which are not as well kept as the OTO files. * SLMR 2.1a * Hello, I am part number ||X||||X||X||X|| 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater I.O.S.P. Area: RPSTOVAL To: All 22 Apr 92 03:44:56 Subject: JEWELRY OFFER --- Notice --- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Jewels of Scheherazade in Conjunction with K.A.L. Camp of O.T.O. Is Offering A Full Line of Mythological/Mystical/Magickal/Decorative Jewelry. 1 0 % O F F 1st Order T O A L L M E M B E R S O F O . T . O . ! ! ( Please State That you Are a Member and Include Label Code From Link ) For a FREE Catalogue, write: J.S. Jewelers P.O. Box 334 Bradley Beach, NJ 07720-0334 (5% of A L L P r o f i t s B e n e f i t O . T . O . L e g a l F u n d) Love is the law, love under will. Frater I.O.S.P. and Soror Ann of K.A.L. Camp 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Ehubi Area: RPSTOVAL To: Tim Maroney 22 Apr 92 07:37:48 Subject: Re: RE: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRI 93, Tim and all... Tim, you assert that Thelema as a "ruling principle" makes no sense to you, then explain that Thelema is a technology for the modification of consciousness. For Gods' sake, Tim, what could possibly have more impact on society than extensive consciousness modification by its members? Technologies of any sort *do* fundamentally modify society -- your argument is akin to saying in 1900 "the automobile is merely a technological gadget, and will therefore have little impact on society". Technologies of mind modification have especially large effects. To wit, consider Christianity, a new approach to religion and Man's relationship with God, which is arguably directly responsible for most of the last 1500 years of European history. Technologies *never* exist in isolation! To extend my car analogy, a science fiction writer trying to explain "good" science fiction once said: "In 1890, any mediocre science fiction writer could have predicted personal autos. A *good* science fiction writer would also predict suburbs and traffic jams!" I see the RPSTOVAL echo at least in part as the place where we try to predict the "suburbs and traffic jams" that Thelema will create. 93, Ehubi 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vere Chappell Area: RPSTOVAL To: Gerald Del Campo 22 Apr 92 13:43:34 Subject: Re: RE: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CH A dictatorship would only be incompatible with Thelema if it abused individual rights. It is theoretically possible to have a dictatorship which justly enforced the Law of Thelema. We have just been biased by the examples of tyrannical dictatorships in the past. We have also been brainwashed by living in the United States into believing that Democracy is a "natural" and "correct" form of Government. Also, I agree with Ehubi -- a 'new aeon' society ain't necessarily gonna be utopia! Let's get *real*. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718