From: Frater Ehubi Area: RPSTOVAL To: Tim Maroney 12 Apr 92 23:11:40 Subject: Re: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIANITY 93, Tim -- You state that you find the "messianic" interpretation of Thelema as a "new world order" neither necessary nor desireable. Interestingly enough, I agree with the letter of your statement, but not the spirit. Some time ago, Rebis started a thread titled "Dreams come true", which asked participants to imagine a world in which Thelema had "triumphed" (by whatever definition). He then asked us to describe that world's everyday operation -- how are laws made and enforced, what churches exist and how do they operate, how are children educated, how are wars fought, and so forth. It came to me that in all likelihood, the "might makes right" strain so strong in so many Thelemites would make a Thelemic world a very unpleasant place to live, by my standards. This led to that most penetrating of self-questions, "Then why are you a Thelemite?" It came to me that "Do what thou wilt" is not a prescriptive law, such as "Do not kill" or "Do not exceed 55 mph". I am fully capable of violating either of these if I choose to do so; society will attempt to revenge itself on me, but only after the act itself is accomplished. Instead, the Law of Thelema is descriptive, in the way that physical laws are; there is no choice involved in two masses attracting each other gravitationally, or in acid neutralizing base to form water and salt. These laws are unbreakable, for they form the very basis of our universe; in a sense, the concept of breaking them is absurd. So, I feel, is the concept of "breaking" the law "Do what thou wilt." It is impossible in this Aeon *not* to do your Will, however mysterious and convoluted the path you tread. That being the case, society itself will be dragged along, willing or not, into a state in which all are operating, if not self-aware, Thelemites. The question Gerald raises with this echo is: What will such a world be like? Further, if several possible futures exist, what can we do to push the world into a more desirable future track? I think these are among the most critical questions to be addressed by modern Thelema, and I am glad Gerald has provided this forum for discussing them. - Frater Ehubi 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Darrin Hyrup Area: RPSTOVAL To: Tim Maroney 14 Apr 92 17:41:56 Subject: RE: Re: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIANITY 93 Tim, In a message dated 10 Apr 92 06:10:59, Tim Maroney wrote: TM> You shouldn't look to anyone else for a definition of what Thelema TM> is. Read the published sources such as Rabelais and form your own TM> opinions. This is good advice. But it doesn't hurt to discuss it with other people to get other opinions that may or may not have some peals of wisdom that you can use. And speaking of published sources, it doesn't hurt to read Liber AL and Liber Oz. TM> This echo appears to be dedicated to the most boring and silly TM> possible definition, which is the Messianic interpretation of Thelema RM> as a New World Order. Where did you get the idea that we're involved in any kind of Messianic interpretations of Thelema here? If it does 'save the world' that would be nice, but there is no Messiah involved, nor or are we out to 'save' anyone. Thelema is for people, and if those Thelemites want to make the world a better place, then that is great! But it won't be Thelema that changes the world, it will be people. As for New World Orders, if we are given to believe that Thelema may one day become a reality for the people of the world, we need to come up with some ideas on what such a world might be like, and what we need to do to make sure that we don't step on our own toes. (Or at least, make the world a little better place than it is now.) In order to do that, we need to find out what Thelema is, from many angles, and work with the current towards its logical end. (Diversion of the forces at inception is much easier than later down the line.) TM> Such a definition is neither necessary nor desirable. Perhaps, if that were indeed what we were talking about. But since that isn't it, the only unnecessary or undesirable thing here is narrow-minded or close-minded thinking. This echo is not just for talking about the future of Thelema. It's just the latest topic of interest. The charter is that this echo is for discussing the socio-political aspects of Thelema, and how they affect the world in general. So, things like environmentalism, economics, current events, and other issues that effect the world and us, are equally open to discussion. In fact, just about anything that deals with people is fine, especially if it deals with people's rights, etc. 93, Darrin 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: RPSTOVAL To: Sis 14 Apr 92 20:23:56 Subject: correspondence Sister! Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Greetings. I hope you are well :) Mo say's hello. This message is dual purpose: 1) To see if you peek your head into your computer once in a while anymore. 2) To thank you for the last correspondence. Thank you! Love is the law, love under will. Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: RPSTOVAL To: Frater Ehubi 13 Apr 92 11:07:00 Subject: RE: Re: RE: THELEMA WITHOUT CHRISTIANITY It seems to me you've abstracted Thelema to the point that it has little or no descriptive content. If all are bound to become Thelemites whether they realize it or not, and all will be doing their wills even while (for instance) supporting a phallocentric dictatorship which respects none of the rights enumerated in the first ten amendments to the Constitution -- well then, what have you really said? It seems you could substitute "lavender robots from the planet SIllitwit" for "Thelema" and make an equally meaningful statement. You've changed the question of the echo from "what would a Thelemic world be like?" to "what will any future world be like?" I suggest this would be better discussed in one of the science fiction forums, where hordes of crazed Libertarians will be only too happy to tell us what's what. Timbo 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718