From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 6 Aug 92 02:40:54 Subject: A question for discussio Sent UpdReq MC> Bondage? Perhaps I wasn't clear; much of the old ceremonial magick I find (not within existing orders, but from "grimoires", etc.) is camouflaged in Christ speak. I haven't yet decided whether this is just an observed code or if the magickians are serious in aspiring to xtian-centered divine will by magickal means (in alchemy, eg). Either way, trad. xtian bondage (bondage to the implicit psychological foundations) becomes transmuted to a variant -- exoterically different, esoterically similar to varying degrees. The bondage continues, you've just traded shackles for the stock, that's all ;) MC> My own humble definition [deleted for brevity]... No argument there; if you look at my message again, I think you'll find that I'm fundamentally describing it as a psychological process as well. The only difference, I think, is I would substitute 'accepting and purposefully fostering deviation' instead of 'accepting all parts' of the personality. Cheerz! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Frater Q.A.A. 6 Aug 92 03:31:44 Subject: Blacks vs. the Cult Sent UpdReq Bravo! Couldn't've said better myself; you ought to excerpt some of that message and forward it to 'Hash as an opening post for all new echo members, I'm sure he'd appreciate it (as guidelines, since we're un(im?)moderate). 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Night Side To: Grendel 4 Aug 92 20:27:12 Subject: Re: SOUND-OFF! UpdReq Hmmm. That's interesting. Soundgarden and Pearl Jam, I thought, were the integral components of Temple of the Dog. Weird. Could you give me a member itenerary? (sp) Pax. :) 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Night Side To: Josh 4 Aug 92 20:28:54 Subject: DRIFTING AGES UpdReq Odd... I see the reverse happening. All around me, 15 year olds are dropping acid, snorting coke, and smoking reef. When I was 15, I was more "laid back" than they are today. It is eerir and, to a degree, somewhat scary. Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Arthur Rosene 3 Aug 92 13:49:18 Subject: Typhonian Teratomas UpdReq AR>Was wondering if anyone out there has read >Typhonian_Teratomas. I've seen an advertisment for it in >Mezlim. Says its a gathering of night side rituals to call >those who wait in the Qliphoth. I suppose the workings >should be done in a rather controlled environment. Anyone >suggest some good practicle reading for this kind of work? I have a xerox of a pre-publication version. Don't know how much it changed in the final version, but the rituals seem fairly simple to perform, and the author doesn't seem to think elaborate banishings, etc. are necessary. Considering what's being invoked, banishings might actually be counter-productive. * SLMR 2.1a * This tagline is false. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: The Moonshadow 3 Aug 92 13:32:20 Subject: A question for discussio UpdReq TM>|JN> unrestrained illogic of the English language. I took German for three >|JN> years, and couldn't retain any of it beyond "Guten Tag!" >+--------------------------------------------------------------------------- TM>surely you know "scheisse!" Now that you mention it! And there was another (excuse the spelling) "Diene Hammer Hangen" = "Your zipper's open!" * SLMR 2.1a * "Legitimate government" is an oxymoron. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Vitriol 3 Aug 92 13:55:24 Subject: Mag_text.zip UpdReq VI>Rec'd disk today. Thanks for the material, I'm uploading it ASAP. >From what I've seen so far, it looks exciting. (And it'll save me a >lot of work -- I've been slowly trying to build a gematria database >using Memorymate, but this is *much* better.) Glad you liked the database program. I put a lot of work into it. I'm thinking about upgrading the thing, so if you have any suggestions for additions or such, I'd appreciate hearing them. One thing I was considering was including a way for someone to create their own gematria for the Enochian database, replacing one of the "speculative" gematrias currently used. * SLMR 2.1a * Scratch a liberal and you will find a fascist. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Amazon Lil Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 3 Aug 92 20:11:52 Subject: Dark, dark and dusty.... UpdReq I think that the radio controlled bull would be just the thing! Hum, what about Spensers' Gifts? In the event you find god first, please inform those of us that want to meet him/her.... Lil 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Amazon Lil Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 3 Aug 92 20:15:22 Subject: Dark, dark and dusty.... UpdReq Guess I have been frequenting the wrong johns lately. I would love to run into a few of your fliers. I wonder if the fundies really understand how annoying they are? Lil 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Amazon Lil Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 3 Aug 92 20:17:24 Subject: The battery powered God AZO UpdReq Thank you! I will deffinately look for them. I feel the need for my god to be closer to me....and cuddle up once in a while... Lil 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Amazon Lil Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 3 Aug 92 20:19:08 Subject: AZO UpdReq I find that some magickians are using the "Dark Side" like some christians use the concept of hell. It is used as a method of keeping children in line, or keeping others under your controll. Fear of the abyss, as a personal hell, keeps many from ataining their goals. The mystique of the unknown, keeps that fear going. Lil 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Amazon Lil Area: Night Side To: Charles Nemo 3 Aug 92 20:26:30 Subject: Fear Rec'd UpdReq I agree with the statement that the darksiders are more aware of possibilities, as they are experimenting with different realities anyway. Thems of us that have been reading science and speculative fiction for years know it as well. The Chaotics/Discordians seem to take these experiments more public....more public than the strictly "Dark" Magickians... Lil 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Amazon Lil Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 3 Aug 92 20:30:28 Subject: Political Bullshit UpdReq After this weekend and the new troops being sent to the mideast, well I think that Uncle George is on his way out....:-)!!!!! LIl 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Amazon Lil Area: Night Side To: Jonathan Corwin 3 Aug 92 20:32:26 Subject: AZO Rec'd UpdReq Yep, and some of us have more than two feet! (or two tits!) Lil 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 3 Aug 92 18:32:00 Subject: Fear UpdReq MC>I read an editorial recently about New Yorkers who were afraid of being out >in rural settings. Seems that there are visions of chain- >saw murderers behind every tree...being from L.A. myself I >remember how long it took to adjust to small town life >without fire hydrants, 911, you know..civilization. ;) My problem was just the reverse. I've spent most of my life in areas which, despite being semi-urban, are blessedly QUIET, with a soft background of songbirds. In NYC, I found my unconscious was continually thinking some huge machine was about to crash down on me, due to all that noise. I withstood it for a year, then had to leave. I'm convinced that New Yorkers are so nasty because they are on a continuous adrenaline high from the sensory overload, and their fight-or-flight reflexes have been permanently locked into "fight" mode. * SLMR 2.1a * Does Atlantis have the Buddha-nature? Mu! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Grendel 3 Aug 92 18:30:02 Subject: One Liners UpdReq GR> Is there a reason you always quote paragraphs (or more) in >the various echoes from people and then add a one liner of >your own at the end. I just notice that you'll reply to 20 >or more messages but all of your replies are like this. Maybe he's the reincarnation of Oscar Wilde -- though his aphorisms aren't quite as pithy. * SLMR 2.1a * Facts? Don't bother me with facts! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Barak Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 4 Aug 92 13:58:40 Subject: Mezlim UpdReq ...well! Um. ...Yes, I would be interested in something on Aroma Therapy by Ray. And you should have time to wrap up your piece before next issue, though the earlier you get it in the better. My head is reeling. It's been one of those days that I really don't have time to get on the modem in the first place - and once I do I find a ton and a half of mail. It's great! but I wish I had more time to answer. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Brynioch Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 1 Aug 92 12:57:00 Subject: Re: Book Recommendations. UpdReq In a message dated 25 Jul 92 08:56:38, Markie Chao wrote: MC> Yup. It's better to let them speak for themselves, as members exist MC> on the echos. I can look up some magazine articles that tell MC> histories of these if you like, but I stay out of it myself. MC> Crowley has a reputation for being intentionally obscure. Some of MC> the others are boring, but clear. See what your library has, you MC> would be surprised. Look under Magic, magick, occult, metaphysical, MC> or anything else you can think of. This is the cheapest and easiest MC> way to get some idea of the beginning stuff, and in some cases MC> accidentally{_ coming across something that clicks with you. Then MC> come back with a new set of questions. I'd appreciate a posting on the histories of any CM orders... As for Crowley, I an understand why he might have wanted to be obscure. Makes the prospective student work harder and trying to understand what the hell he was talking about. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Brynioch Area: Night Side To: Josh Scott 1 Aug 92 13:00:00 Subject: Re: Kenneth Grant, Chaos, Dark-side stuff, etc.UpdReq Re: Eleven Lessons in High Magick I believe i've seen this book kicking around in the local occult stores (we are fortunate in that we have three places in town that sell occult oriented books and one place that sells occult paraphenalia). 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Brynioch Area: Night Side To: Neuro Sonic 2 Aug 92 18:01:00 Subject: Re: Book Recommendation for Newbies. UpdReq In a message dated 14 Jul 92 22:30:50, Neuro Sonic wrote: NS> For starters anything by K. Grant is wonderful for Nightside Vein. NS> Second- M. Bertrieux is heavy reading but I understand it's worth NS> the strain NS> Third- Peter Carrol's _Liber Null & Psychonaut_ is great NS> Fourth- Anything by Frater U:. D:. (carried by Llwellyn NS> Fifth- Anything under Blackmoon Publishing NS> If anyone else has something to add, please tell me I'd like to hear NS> it too...... NS> Later On Homie........ NS> The Law is For All. NS> Neuro Sonic Just thinking on this, am I in the appropriate echo? It seems that Night-Side (Chaos) magick is something for the more practiced and learned magician, are my questions about beginner CM books germaine to this echo? Could someone explain what Chaos magick really is? Does the Chaos Magician tap into or use primal forces? Or is it something more? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: -D.L. Area: Night Side To: Charles Nemo Subject: Necrocomnicon? Rec'd UpdReq CN>CN> I've never spent much effort in trying to locate a copy, and I CN>CN> snapped up the paperback recently purely out of curiosity. It CN>CN> hasn't arrived yet, and I'll let you know what I think.... CN>Yeah, there's always that hope that something truly, CN>exotically outrageous will emerge. In spite of all the CN>fundies' warnings, it just never seems that it ever does, CN>or that any of their conspiracies can ever be proven. Necrocomnicon?, sounds deadly (stupid pun)... i must inquire as to the nature of this book, what is it and who wrote it? i know very little of the dark side of magick, i fear i'm becoming, ick, "good" -even if you don't want to respond, respond, i need to know if this base works! -thanks & stuff... -D.L. ___ X SLMR 2.0 X hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: -D.L. Area: Night Side To: Charles Nemo Subject: the lost Rec'd UpdReq CN>Lost people are very DANGEROUS people. They need CN>certainty, and once they "find" it, you'd better not be the CN>one who tries to create doubt in their narrow little minds CN>by scorning their illusory little rocks of sand.... -All too true. -D.L. ___ X SLMR 2.0 X hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: -D.L. Area: Night Side To: Jonathan Corwin Subject: Black Magick Rec'd UpdReq JC> We are all born slaves, yet may rise to the degree of JC>freedom we wish -- That is the inspiration of the Devil's JC>Road. (APPLAUSE) -D.L. ___ X SLMR 2.0 X All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Chen 5 Aug 92 21:57:26 Subject: Politics and Society UpdReq C> Oops... that was supposed to read:"Erotic psyche",not:"Erpsyche". That'll teach you to try to type while your erotic psyche is in operation. ;) /s 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Turbator 5 Aug 92 22:09:58 Subject: Politics and society UpdReq T> Any suggestions (other than: talking to T> friends/strangers,ranting, in an artistic manner, or T> otherwise, protests, and the like), would be greatly T> appreciated. T> I can't wait till I can crash funni, I mean fundie ;) bbs'. There's a start, I know you meant `crash' in a different way than I do, but why not infiltrate? They acuse us of it, we might as well DO it! Start out sounding like one of them and then start slipping in `dangerous' ideas. The hard cores will catch on eventually but their kids were reading... meanwhile, disrupt the political machine in whatever legal ways are possible. Voting out Georgie Porgie even for a questionable substitute upsets the repub dictatorship. Posting messages on nationwide bbs's could get to all sorts of little forming minds. Spread Nietzche... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 5 Aug 92 22:16:24 Subject: A question for discussio UpdReq JN> Ok, then. Let me ask you what YOU mean by "creative JN> energy" and "primal JN> chaos", and (if it is different) what the generally JN> accepted definition JN> of those terms is among "chaos" magicians. Ok, having given at least 30 seconds to deciding how to try to explain this, my personal definitions which may or may not agree with other chaos magicians are as follows; Primal chaos is the infinite potential. It's a hell of a thing to try to describe, but it is unformed or undirected creative energy. The old dime store occult explanation of magic using `The Force' from Star Wars could be used in an example here, although it's probably going to get me some criticism and isn't what I would use in the book. The energy exists in all time and space, and needs only the slightest nudge, even of thought, to take direction. That wordless feeling that you get just before the magic works...that is what I am talking about. JN> And also, do you distinguish between "the energy JN> out of which a creation JN> is formed", "the energy used in a creative act" and "the ability to JN> create"? (Watch out, I'm setting you up. ) Hmmm...I could use this... "Energy out of which a creation is formed"...vast pool of primal energy as already described. "Energy used in creative act"...same stuff, but given direction by... ""the ability to create"...the magician. One who has learned to consciously affect the direction of the energy. Can't wait to see what I come up with when I have more time to contemplate this. Can't wait to see what you are setting me up for... Thou art God... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 5 Aug 92 21:43:02 Subject: Dark, dark and dusty.... UpdReq AL>Guess I have been frequenting the wrong johns lately. I >would love to run into a few of your fliers. I wonder if >the fundies really understand how annoying they are? Lil I don't think they care. The type of person they want would be SCARED by that stuff; someone who is merely annoyed would be considered a heathen, and not worth consideration. Besides, their mind-set is such that opposition just makes them feel more justified in their faith. But the last couple of weeks, they have changed their tone. Down in the Star Bank tower I saw the latest set, in which various semi-celebrities (i.e. golf pros, successful entrepreneurs, etc.) attribute all their success to the intervention of Jesus Christ. Sounds like since the stick didn't work, they're trying the carrot. * SLMR 2.1a * Steal only from the best. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 4 Aug 92 11:39:04 Subject: Political Bullshit UpdReq AL>After this weekend and the new troops being sent to the >mideast, well I think that Uncle George is on his way >out....:-)!!!!! LIl If he really wanted something that would get people back on his side, he'd play up the death camps in Serbia, and then send in troops to rescue the prisoners. But judging from today's NY Times, he's too chickenshit to do that. * SLMR 2.1a * What does it all mean, Mr. Natural? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 4 Aug 92 11:40:06 Subject: Dark, dark and dusty.... UpdReq AL>I think that the radio controlled bull would be just the >thing! Hum, what about Spensers' Gifts? In the event you >find god first, please inform those of us that want to meet >him/her.... Lil I'll keep my eyes open for it. * SLMR 2.1a * [A]bort [R]etry [I]gnore [S]ay Kaddish 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 5 Aug 92 12:58:10 Subject: Coffin cars UpdReq MC>Trade it in for a GEO Metro. I'm 5' 10 1/2" and all legs, >but have plenty of room inside, while the outside is a very >small car. Traded a Cadillac in on it. Heh. I tried a Metro -- instant claustrophobia! I'm 6'3" and 240 lbs. The whole car tilts when I get in the driver's seat! Besides, having just hit 40, I'm at the time of life when I get nostalgia for the cars of my youth. Currently driving a Monte Carlo, which is the closest I can come these days to my beloved GTO. I ache for the days of 20-cent gas and no pollution controls! * SLMR 2.1a * Facts? Don't bother me with facts! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Azoth 5 Aug 92 21:47:12 Subject: Re: Enochian Lexicon UpdReq AZ>Unfortunately, just typing them in isn't really good enough, when >it comes to all those extracted names. I'm working on the coordinate >tables of the Governors right now, which tie the Names to the Elemental >Tablets, so that a change to the Tablet is reflected in the derived >Names. Be sure and check the names against the Tablets carefully. I recall finding a couple of sigils in James' book that didn't match the names as given. Never got around to doing anything more about it, though. AZ>the Tabula Recensa >was handed to Dee on a platter, so to speak; Dee himself was not >with Kelly when the latter 'obtained' it from Raphael (this is on >page 15 of the Actio Tertia.) Now, that's just suspicious enough.... Hmm. Hadn't heard that. I usually use the T.R. because the G.D. system of multiple letters in some squares seems like sheer idiocy. And it does work well enough. AZ>Your gematria database is somewhat broader than mine's >likely to get (I have only rudimentary interest in Hebrew, for >example) but I require some modeling tools for working with alternate >gematria schemes and variant Tablets, so in my copious free >time, I'm writing some. Have you done any work in that direction? I can't help much with ways of doing it with C/C++. I mostly do Windows programming these days, and for that environment C/C++ is too low-level for efficient debugging and maintenance. Since I'm a one-man shop these days, I have to keep my customers happy by getting jobs done FAST, which means Smalltalk or Visual Basic is the language of choice. And -- as I'm sure you know -- if you stop using C for a few months, you forget most of it. I once did work up algorithms for extracting the various Names from the tablets, and wrote up a little program in -- don't cringe -- Microsoft interpreted BASIC. I never did get around to seeing if I could make them really efficient -- just treated the Tablets as 2-d matrices, and hacked the G.D. rules for extracting the names using offsets for the Lesser Angles. Not difficult, but full of kludges. The REAL problems don't develop until you start working on ways to determine the G.D.'s elemental attributes for the squares. When I started learning ACTOR and Smalltalk, I thought about the problem again. Seems to me that (excluding the 91 governors) the best way to deal with the tablets would be to treat the Lesser Angles and the Great Crosses as separate entities. For the Angles, create an object that is basically a 5 by 6 matrix and a bunch of rules for extracting names. For the Crosses, an object with a 6 by 7 matrix and the needed rules. Put four Angle objects and a Cross object together in a Tablet object. For the 91 governors, I can't think of anything better than a list of coordinates for each letter of each name, using the Tablet as a 2-d matrix. Tedious, but there's no rule for creating the names to simplify it. As for gematria, that's relatively easy, since the English equivalents of Enochian letters don't use multiple letters (e.g. "Th" for Tau, or "Ph" for Peh) or multiple letter-values like the Hebrew finals. Just an object with procedures for peeling letters off a string, a dictionary for lookups, and a variable to hold the total. AZ>Now if someone could just tie the Keys to Logaeth.... Looks like the >John Dee Society will (at last, and for the first time) be publishing >it in a year or two, so that those of us with limited access to the >British Museum and failing eyesight can get on with our work. At last! I've been wishing for someone to publish Logaeth for a long time. Don't know how useful it will be in practice -- those I know who've actually seen the Logaeth stuff say it's not on the same level as the later Enochian work. * SLMR 2.1a * Moderation causes "Excess Deficiency" 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 5 Aug 92 14:22:14 Subject: A question for discussio UpdReq MC> JN> I've never met the lady myself, though friends who have are about > JN> equally divided between thinking she's a divinely-inspired artist, and > JN> thinking she's a total Space Cadet. MC>Aren't the two synonymous? ;) Heh. Sometimes it seems like it! Aside from friend's opinions, all I have to go on is her writings, which seem -- in my probably-prejudiced view -- to be written under the rule that "it doesn't matter what you SAY, as long as it SOUNDS like it means something." It sure gets your head buzzing, as "inspired" writing is supposed to do, but lots of it won't stand up to semantic analysis. Does that make it "artistic"? MC> JN> Ok, then. Let me ask you what YOU mean by "creative > JN> energy" and "primal > JN> chaos", > ........ MC>You know what? These questions are so good that I'm going >to give them some serious thought before I answer, like >tomorrow. This is the kind of stuff I get into in part of >my book that isn't written yet and I'd hate to just ramble >something of the top of my head. To be continued... I look forward to seeing your answers. * SLMR 2.1a * Five tons of flax! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Chen Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 5 Aug 92 23:30:44 Subject: Politics and Society UpdReq Say- did you get my original message- #437? Otherwise this makes VERY little sence. I'm used to the post office losing my mail, but I'm new to all this... LOVE/WILL CHEN 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Turbator Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 6 Aug 92 00:57:28 Subject: Politics and society UpdReq 93 There were 23,000 lutherans in N'awlins this past weekend, Nchsh and I had great fun freakin' them out. Only in fun, I'm not into converting them, but shaking 'em up; and giving 'em a little free adrenaline is good for the soul! >;-D MC> There's a start, I know you meant `crash' in a MC> different way than I do, but why not infiltrate? They MC> acuse us of it, we might as well DO it! Just what do you mean by crash, and would you enlighten me? MC> sounding like one of them and then start slipping in MC> `dangerous' ideas. The hard cores will catch on MC> eventually but their kids were reading... Bush out of course, but U.S. out of north america would be mo' betta. MC> Spread Nietzche... Is good idea, how about C. Jung and W. Reich? WILL LOVE 93 Turbator Jesus was well hung. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: Night Side To: Grendel 5 Aug 92 20:28:32 Subject: Re: Wiccans. UpdReq In a message dated 03 Aug 92 22:53:00, Grendel wrote: G> Funny, in the Thelema echo in the last few months, most of the people G> there were agreeing that the Wiccans tend to do a lot more actual G> ritual while the ceremonialists like to sit around and BS about the G> Qabalah forever. Go figure. I have found this observation to be pretty accurate. Not that I agree or disagree with any of this (actually, I'm trying to comment on your statement without becoming involved with the thread ;)). Love is the Law. Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Night Side To: Charles Nemo 1 Aug 92 07:12:00 Subject: Re: Correspondence Rec'd UpdReq CN> Thanks for the letter. It's nice to see "intelligence" spreading CN> outside the U.S. and Europe! Particularly in an area that was so restricted just a few months ago........ It still took sixty days one way (from Estonia to USA). 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Night Side To: Charles Nemo 1 Aug 92 07:30:00 Subject: Re: New Tunes Rec'd UpdReq CN> So is "Thunder Perfect Mind" Current 93's latest? I was given that as a gift when I was in Dallas a few months ago. Want a copy? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Night Side To: Charles Nemo 1 Aug 92 07:45:00 Subject: Fear Rec'd UpdReq CN> Ah, yessssssss.... The recent "Thanatos" string of messages had CN> interesting things to say about the adrenaline rush of fear. The -=Sinistar=- jumped out of an airplane from about 5,000' last weekend. I work with him and this other guy interested in skydiving just sauntered up and asked if he'd like to jump from a plane. He said, "sure!" Well, he did......... Now he has me wanting to do it. Fear is an incredible rush! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 1 Aug 92 07:47:00 Subject: Re: Geezer City, USA UpdReq MC> Hey ALL you babies bragging about your ages! I'll be 36 this MC> October, so send presents while you have time, nyah! Well, you have two years on me. MC> "What's the point of being grown up if you can't act childish?" Does this mean you WON'T wear my St. Christopher medal? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Night Side To: Josh Norton 1 Aug 92 07:52:00 Subject: Re: A question for discussio UpdReq JN> Why all this emphasis on the "night" side, then? In the more JN> "traditional" systems (i.e. Golden Dawn, Aurum Solis) you're supposed JN> to JN> learn to deal with the dark side of yourself when your still down in JN> the JN> Yesod grades. What's the big deal? I was Prolocutor of a GD lodge for several years and found it to be about as sticky as a bottle of Karo (or was that KY, I forget). Anyway, I don't think you learn much of anything LHP in these systems. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frc Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 1 Aug 92 07:59:00 Subject: Re: Women in restrooms UpdReq MC> We get quite a laugh out of you poor unsuspecting fools... And I get an even bigger one out of those of "you" who think some of "us" don't know! To kindof quote Arthur Dent; "I eat stranger things than you in my breakfast cereal!" (note; I often lunch on the side of my cheek, though) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: * 6 Aug 92 17:38:34 Subject: Nox Theoria, In Defense of the Black ArtsSent UpdReq Symbolism, Idiology and Ideocide Because symbolism is a representative experience and discussion can easily abstract itself from reality, care must be taken in its examination. Hence, only the basics and some elemental observations are covered here. The infant takes two years to begin grasping language, yet does not understand or use it as we do. In those two years, the baby learns a great deal -- (s)he explores and learns how to manipulat her surrounding environment. How is this done? The obvious answer is that there is an intuitional form of judgment -- which follows its own rules -- as well as the verbal, logical form. The integration of both forms is a central experience for the magus and suggests a common ground of basic principles from which the two may evolve in tandem; one such principle is differentiation. Language, for example, evolves as a more efficient way to manipulate the surrounding environment. Distinctions are made to increasing levels of finer-grained generalities. The labels we use -- table, chair, etc. -- represent object classes defined by function rather than name. Qualifiers specify extra attributes of a particular object. Before language evolves, however, what is the basis for judgment? Words are out. The infant is the ultimate empiricist,weaving mandalic symbol-structures from its acid fugue -- what actions cause which responses? What are the associations between various events? Say, the level of sunlight and being put to sleep,or going outside and being fed? It's doubtful if the infant thinks in such segmented ways, but rather sunrise=mommy comes=being fed... Thinking on this level is associative, a spread of activation by psychological links which are partially self-created and partly universal. Over time, the infant leaqrns to weight events in connection to their consequences, developing the human equivalent of a neural net; but still intuitionally. A hierarchy of metaphors is formed,a fluid probability matrix grounded in sensation and being. In the same way, may sounds and images not retain some intuitive, emotive taint not immediately obvious to us throughout life? Cognitive,linguistic theory has partly linked speech and thought to a heritage of rich, sensual awareness. Part of the rich, cultural image bank spanning the globe is due to its emotive meaning. Sensations are constructed, utilized and absorbed in all religio-mystico-magickal systems,; particularly alchemy, which I will use purely for example. In alchemy, obscure operations and fanciful imagery ["blood of the red lion"=menstrual flow] serves in some sense as a code. But some part acts to develop meaning by imbedding [imprinting] symbolic frameworks (such as are found in the variants of Qabala) which alter the pathways of perception, converting base lead into aura spiritualis. The method: seeding the sub-conscious with meaningful imagery. The various techniques of magick and meditation commonly depend on a temporary suspension of the rational, critical judge (the "psychic censor"). They are remakably similar, esoterically, if not exoterically. The fascination with these techniques suggests that they act more completely in the trance-formation of an individual's belief-structure than the rational, verbal probings of western counseling and analysis. This counseling, more often than not, attempts to suppress the consequences of a belief-structure,making behavioral patterns covert rather than erasing or altering them. Meditations thus serve, through constructed meaning, to alter the consequences by altering the structure of belief responsible for those consequences. The work occurs on a deep level and acts more completely, though slower in immediate effects than verbal counseling. They make use of an internal, intrapersonal language that is critical to the magus' work, useful widely enough to be considered a basic tool -- here is the basis of talismanic magick,predictive paradigmsthe heart and soul of the magus' creative integirity. If we accept this mythopoetic view, certain caveats must be observed: 1) the belief-structure is *not* the individual, and 2) there is the danger of ideology in the pursuits of symbology. It is perhaps more appropriate to view the belief-structure as a dominant composite among competing forms, influencing evolution by sourcing alternative potentiae. Formulated in Jung's archetypes,the problem lies in becoming their slaves rather than their generators. Experience is always *here*, now. Some experiences have such impact that they are repeatedly examined, particularly within a causal paradigm. This is inevitably the death-knell of experience,the extrapolation of self-fulfilling false causalities and the narrowing of perception through limiting assumptions: X says Y's interpretation of Z's thesis on the buddhist experience is flawed,as A and B explain that... This is the formation of ideology, the diminutive trickling of a roaring, thunder-filled Tao to a dry desert wash for the thirst cracked throat. It strangles the vitality of experience -- to explain is to confine, to believe to cage. Often, some thing is believed in. And so, experience yields symbolism which leads to the destruction of experience through confining it to an ever-narrower box of its continuum. It is in some sense poetic, this intimation implied by A.O. Spare that belief in a thing calls up its opposite, oscillating and fracturing in a dialectic of destruction. Ideology is the sin of restriction. But if experience contains the roots of its destruction, so does ideology. For symbolism is a double-edged sword, and can wound that which wields it. Ideology depends on stability to help manage and manipulate the human psyche, but symbolism is not stable. It is sufficiently vague that it may be cast and recast to individual purpose by the clever iconoclast with skill at symbols and ideocidal compulsion. The reclamation of Satan from trashbin of christian evil to Dark Prometheus, a rising rebel who champions the individual, provoked this term. What shall we call this process? Others, who call themselves "Satanists", would say "reclamation". Bah! Let us call a spade, a spade, shall we? But I could think of no adequate term and so coined "ideocide". Opponents will yell in righteous snarl, "Foul! This is not as it has been historically defined!" In fact, however, there is a historical basis for the symbolic framework used by Satanists and other darksiders who decide to work with christian currents: the Gnostic gospels. But if this is brought up, the foolish corpses which claimed the historical primacy of their ideology will now resort to contemporary irrelevancy; "But that is not the way it is understood today!" will ring their carrion cry. Leave them to suffer in their webs of symbolic suicide. They will just waste time and energy better spent elsewhere. Ideocide is a serious business, punctuated and punctured by insane laughter, mad glee and hysterical insight. The crowning achievement of the ideocidal maniac is the construction of new,contemporarily relevant ideologies, which establish and accelerate a cultural dialectic of destruction. If (s)he should succeed in replacing a dominant ideology than (s)he may decide to turn her energies to wrecking her own creation. Or not. The nature of ideocide, then, is in the art of symbolic subversion. Learn the skill of this and manipulation of the individual becomes more difficult. For those truly skilled, the risk is entrapment in their own machinations; but if this is resolved properly, they may be released into experience and not its more placid sister. Go forth and engender chaos, remembering first and foremost: Is this but another idiology? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: * 6 Aug 92 17:42:20 Subject: Nox Theoria, In Defense of the Black ArtsSent UpdReq De(con)struction Creation! Destruction! Wine to the lips of the hungry; Food of the gods to slake our thirst Choose your weapons carefully, mage, the sword may hoe the earth and the awl bite flesh; Belief and logic bear the meat of the primitive, old and new The religion of the rabble, bland dictatorship of boredom; the fascist collective dismembers its body The three-fold circle of illusion: an inquisition of morality (the circle spilleth over) unbalanced and outraged; as only we fabricators can be. The common, by default is worthless. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 6 Aug 92 20:48:42 Subject: Fear Sent UpdReq AL> I agree with the statement that the darksiders AL> are more aware of possibilities, as they are AL> experimenting with different realities anyway. AL> Thems of us that have been reading science and AL> speculative fiction for years know it as well. AL> The Chaotics/Discordians seem to take these AL> experiments more public....more public than the AL> strictly "Dark" Magickians... Indeed, the former have a large dose of humor to leaven the loaf they distribute, and like the jesters of medieval times they manage to fool many mundanes into believing that their message is less serious than it really is. Tolerance often arises more out of laziness and stupidity than it does out of a philosophy of respect for others.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: -D.L. 6 Aug 92 20:52:46 Subject: Necrocomnicon? Sent UpdReq Yes, your message arrived in fine shape. The Necronomicon was a title of an alleged tome of dark magick purportedly written by the Mad Arab Abdul Alhazred. The names of both the book and its author were invented by horror author H.P. Lovecraft, who lived from 1890 to 1937. Many other titles were also created by HPL and his circle of friends, e.g., the Pnakotic Manuscripts, the Aklo Tablets and von Junzt's Unaussprechlichen Kulten. Some occultists believe that HPL was at least subconsciously aware of darker currents. Recent efforts at English versions of at least part of The Necronomicon have been made by Simon (probably a collaboration of several authors) in the U.S. and Hay in England. There have also been editions of such things as a volume of repetitive pseudo-Arabic script. The various works are at least entertaining.... Actually, the deeper one investigates, the more intriguing the possibilities become. There is much more than meets the eye. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: -D.L. 6 Aug 92 21:01:48 Subject: the lost Sent UpdReq CN>Lost people are very DANGEROUS people. They need CN>certainty, and once they "find" it, you'd better not be the CN>one who tries to create doubt in their narrow little minds CN>by scorning their illusory little rocks of sand.... -> -All too true. -> -D.L. Indeed. BTW, my sympathies to you in response to your comment in your earlier message on becoming "good". That is an EXCELLENT way to get totally lost, especially if you pay attention to fundies and others who are only too happy to define "good" FOR you, especially in return for your services (particularly desired if you happen to be an attractive female) and/or large sums of cash.... };-) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: Frc 6 Aug 92 21:05:50 Subject: Re: Correspondence Sent UpdReq CN> Thanks for the letter. It's nice to see CN> "intelligence" spreading CN> outside the U.S. and Europe! F> Particularly in an area that was so restricted F> just a few months ago........ F> It still took sixty days one way (from Estonia to USA). Yeah, and the postal charge was amazing too. I calculated that the tiny parcel must have cost him the equivalent of $20 or $30, if not more! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: Frc 6 Aug 92 21:07:52 Subject: Re: New Tunes Sent UpdReq CN> So is "Thunder Perfect Mind" Current 93's latest? F> I was given that as a gift when I was in Dallas a few months ago. F> Want a copy? Absolutely, and thanks in advance! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: Frc 6 Aug 92 21:09:30 Subject: Fear Sent UpdReq CN> Ah, yessssssss.... The recent "Thanatos" string of messages had CN> interesting things to say about the adrenaline rush of fear. F> The -=Sinistar=- jumped out of an airplane from about 5,000' last F> weekend. I work with him and this other guy interested in skydiving F> just sauntered up and asked if he'd like to jump from a plane. F> He said, "sure!" Well, he did......... F> Now he has me wanting to do it. Fear is an incredible rush! Just don't let Beernut anywhere near your parachute. };-) Actually, the "darker" fears entice me more, e.g., a serial killer's efforts to continue without getting caught. Imagine the rush the Green River Killer must be getting these days.... I also know a comic shop owner who carried the first edition of the Dahmer comic as well as the very popular murderers' trading cards. He has had more than a few VERY scary individuals who were quite frank in admitting that their wish/goal is to make it "into" a future deck or comic book memorial edition. Hehehe.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Amazon Lil 6 Aug 92 22:27:24 Subject: AZO Sent UpdReq Is that an offer? ;) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathan Corwin Area: Night Side To: Brynioch 6 Aug 92 22:30:48 Subject: Chaos and learning magick Sent UpdReq Yes, this is the appropriate echo -- don't worry about not having much experience at magick, this is not really a place that deals (often) with presenting difficult rituals, etc. So I doubt if this is the "appropriate" echo for what you have in mind, but the world is rarely a perfect place . My own personal recommendation would be that you look into other veins of magick and begin establishing and experimenting with rudimentary magickal practices -- relaxation, meditation, sensualization, etc. Use this echo to get a sense of the eclecticism of people attracted to "darkside" and "Chaos" magick. Much CM is not terribly different, but its got a different language and you'll have to learn the vernacular as well as the grammar. Keep in mind that acting on something is different from learning it, so don't be intimidated by things that may seem complex. IMHO, the main thing you will need to get a good grasp of CM is a change of views and a commitment to follow through, in practice, with experimentation. None of this comes overnight. Most changes of views come through informed discussion and/or willingness to learn and probe experiences. The CM vernacular tends to be heavily symbolically oriented (hence some of Crowley's "difficult" writing), and is most successful when that symbolism unites with reality, offering experiences that can cause deep shifts in reality by expanding and altering perceptions of reality (the question of whether reality or perception of reality is being changed is largely academic for purposes of this discussion). As to chaos magick -- yes, it taps into primordial forces but no, it is not just that. Chaos magick reflects the dissolution of cultural blinders that bind most magickal practices. Since it is a fundamentally different attitude and understanding of the nature of the magickal reality we exist in, the practitioners tend to be well versed or at least understand the traditional basics of magick (to paraphrase my favorite english teacher: I don't care if you break the rules of good english, but you've got to know 'em cold if you're going to break them to good effect). I would go into my chaosview, but I don't have a good enough grasp of your mental frameworks to tailor the message for you. I find miscommunication occurs less if I couch the substance of my message in the receiver's style. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718