From: Azoth Area: Night Side To: Vitriol 21 Jun 92 11:22:00 Subject: Re: Night Side UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. V > Is it your opinion that these, er, places and entities, as it V > were, are merely black boxes in one's psyche, or do you feel them to have V > independant existance? IOW, are they real like my wife's fear of airplane V > travel, or are they real like the sharks in the ocean? (Some, like Robert V > Howard, have argued for their independant existance. The difference, it V > seems to me, is that while one could conquer one's bogeys, a "real" demon V > is another matter entirely. I am reminded of the ending of "Red Sonya".) The answer, I think, is anything other than a simple yes/no equation. There are certainly black-box manifestations, but that does NOT preclude their having a degree of 'independent' influence and perceptibility by other entities. Some of these black-boxes are apparently just 'memory' elements, vis Hubbard's engrams and especially the Wall-Of-Fire material. Things, painful things, have happened to us, and must be mastered. Some of these look a lot like demons, monsters, nightmare creatures beyond any sort of describability. Many of these things seem to be shared, to some degree, or it may be that only our reactions to them are shared, and those reactions themselves may be experienced as demons, monsters, etc.. In addition to _that_ sort of NightSide perceptic, there are still 'things' which don't seem to be such a close part-of-myself, things which refer to an entirely different order of experience, utterly NOT-Human. These have been variously interpreted as extra-terestrial or extra-dimensional, and have no clear connection to 'personal' reality constructs, but which nevertheless can be lead to impinge on my conciousness, and result in subjective experiences which can be very close to the previously mentioned type. We can call the former Type I and the latter Type II ....uh.... _NightForms_ (how's that?) and posit subtypes of the first and second order in each case, such that the second order experience is that of the reaction TO the actual source of the experience, which clouds or hides the direct perception by replacing it with something more acceptable to the concious mind. Within this framework, what generally ends up being talked about are the second order perceptions which are by definition subjective, with no clear indication as to the nature of the first order correlative experience. The problem is that there is such Power manifest in the first order experience of either Type that it quite literally overwhelms the mind into a state where it MUST manufacture an acceptable substitute or be destroyed. There seems to be a gradient scale of NightSide practice such that one may, over time, learn to accomodate an increasing level of Power, and accustom one's mind to an increasingly outre form of Understanding. I am beginning to suspect, however, that the result may be something quite other than Human, and that it may not, after all, be possible to accurately communicate to one's compatriots the nature of the Change required. In my opinion, therefore, there are both subjective and objective components to the NightSide, which distinction obtains (at least) below the Abyss, but which has no practical bearing on learning how to deal with it. A demon is a demon, and it's no use arguing whether those great-big-teeth which just ripped a hole in my Heart are real or Memorex(tm). Practically speaking, it's still One-on-One, with your Universe at stake. Time loves a Hero! Love is the law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X Left, Left, I hadda good brain but it Left.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Q.A.A. Area: Night Side To: Azoth 21 Jun 92 21:41:20 Subject: T.O.P.Y. Files UpdReq Thanks for the offline tip. Will you be meeting for the open house next week, or being an independent , stay out of mundane contact with the rest of us D.C. thelemites? (Not that you necessarily stated you were an independent. I kinda made an ass out of U and ME.) I'm uploading a few T.O.P.Y. files tonight. I don't necessarily agree with the pop cult image of the organization but I enjoy the conversations, and am encouraged at the Magickal blossoming of today's youth. They've had alot of problems with fundie's lately in the U.K. though. Considering the nature of Lovecraft's madness, I wonder whether these visions of madness occur far more frequently than the public assumes? I have asked on MagickNet whether anyone has done any work with Moorcock's Melnibonean Mythos, I am struck by the parallels with Crowley's lost continent. What about Monseiur Barker? His "The Great And Secret Show" was amazing in the metaphorism of Nightside and Alchemy. His "Imagica" is practically a grimoire of Sparean traditions. I know he worked with the musical occult group COIL (formerly members of Psychic TV) for his soundtrack for Hellraiser. I hope to meet you at the Gathering Frater Q.A.A. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Neuro Sonic Area: Night Side To: Azoth 23 Jun 92 00:42:04 Subject: Where does EVIL lurk? UpdReq I think we've started up some really good conversation on this echo, but why does it seem that all of these local echoes are just that, LOCAL? I have had similiar experiences that might be classified as Type 2 Night forms,My questions is whether it matters, in the long run? How can we be fully in control of our own inner power if we can not release the berzerking depths every once in a while. Not that I would have people, running out and going crazy, but I realize that the potential for almost any human to become a Jeffery Dahmler or Mansonian exists under the proper conditions. True these primal states of Animal fury (excuse me I realize that Damhler or the Manson cult do not fit this bill.) must be invoked and controlled by the Mage, in order for him to truly be in control. I still wouldn't advise doing so without the proper preliminary God assumption/invocations to allow third person observational control, but to say to the mage that he must only be one Path of the tree is absurd. Too limit the mage, who's ultimate goal is complete and udder(hehe) annihilation of his environment, too only one proscribed path is also absurd. You say Kaballa, I say Cthulhu Kaballa... Cthulhu... Let's blow the whole thing up!!! Do you believe that all neophyte's with a yearning towards the Dark realms should ground themselves safely in the Dayside Rays before they can safely bathe under the DARK MOON? Wow, this was getting kinda intense before I had to butt in. "Do What Thou Wilt!" -Neuro Sonic 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Night Side To: Frater Q.A.A. 21 Jun 92 06:21:08 Subject: Re: Cthulian Craziness UpdReq -=> Frater Q.a.a. sent a message to Azoth on 06-20-92 19:42 <=- -=> Cthulian Craziness <=- FQ> Therefore it cannot be a threat if one understands it's FQ> true meanings and uses. Unless, of course, it has an independant existance. Understanding won't help you none if you fall in the alligator pit! FQ> I haven't even finished reading FQ> messages and replying and it's time for me to go. That's why the Gods invented the offline reader! 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * End of sermon. Let the orgy begin. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: Night Side To: Azoth 24 Jun 92 06:24:34 Subject: Re: Night Side UpdReq Brother: Thanks for the extensive and lucid reply. I'll spare everyone the extensive quotes, and simply say that your answer made sense to me, as it jived with what I had suspected, but have had very little direct personal experience with. 93 93/93 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * Never underestimate the power of a boogieman. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Q.A.A. Area: Night Side To: Vitriol 25 Jun 92 16:56:48 Subject: Re: Cthulian Craziness UpdReq VI>Understanding won 't help you none if you fall into an alligator pit Oh well Shite Islamic Fundamentalism happens! Do what thou wilt! Huh what's the deal with the damn censor B.S. then? Frater Q.A.A> 93 93/93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Night Side To: Frater Q.A.A. 24 Jun 92 06:24:00 Subject: T.O.P.Y. Files UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. FQ> Will you be meeting for the open house next week, or being FQ> an independent , stay out of mundane contact with the rest FQ> of us D.C. thelemites? I'll likely be tied up with other business; gotta prepare for a class I'm giving on the 29th. Uh, what's an 'independent'? Maybe I'm one and don't know it? };-] FQ> I'm uploading a few T.O.P.Y. files tonight. Gottem; thanks. I sent a few Chaos-flavored files by Carroll, et al. I grabbed megabytes of stuff from HaditNet before it went away, including the Libri and some Spare stuff. Interested? FQ> Considering the nature of Lovecraft's madness, I wonder FQ> whether these visions of madness occur far more frequently FQ> than the public assumes? Much of Lovecraft's work was written in an attempt to record, and thereby exorcise, his many and continuing nightmares. I've talked with a number of folk over the years who've described some pretty Lovecraftian scenarios, dreamwise. Me, I gotta work at it.... FQ> I have asked on MagickNet whether anyone has done any work FQ> with Moorcock's Melnibonean Mythos, I am struck by the FQ> parallels with Crowley's lost continent. I don't know about the Mythos, but the 'tutelary demon' concept, and some of the powerful visuals certainly fit well with modern DarkSide practice. FQ> What about Monseiur Barker? His "The Great And Secret FQ> Show" was amazing in the metaphorism of Nightside and FQ> Alchemy. His "Imagica" is practically a grimoire of Sparean FQ> traditions. Sounds interesting; I'll go for it. _Imagica_ has been recommended to me several times. FQ> I know he worked with the musical occult group COIL FQ> (formerly members of Psychic TV) for his soundtrack for FQ> Hellraiser. I've heard more about COIL lately than ever before. Where might one go searching (CD, cassette, LP, whatever)? Love is the law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X Company of Heaven exposed; film at eleven. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Night Side To: Neuro Sonic 25 Jun 92 06:25:02 Subject: Where does EVIL lurk? UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. NS> I think we've started up some really good conversation on NS> this echo, but why does it seem that all of these local NS> echoes are just that, LOCAL? Yeah, PODS seems to be rather more fragile than MagickNet. Don't know why; there seem to regular glitches in the Net. NS> I have had similiar experiences that might be classified as NS> Type 2 Night forms,My questions is whether it matters, in NS> the long run? In the long run, it probably matters a lot; it may be significant that those were real Small-Furry-Creatures-From-Alpha-Centauri, and not just indigestion.... Short term, though, it probably doesn't matter at all; humor them, they _might_ be real, and it usually doesn't pay to take unnecesary chances. NS> How can we be fully in control of our own inner power if we can not release NS> the berzerking depths every once in a while. Not that I NS> would have people, running out and going crazy, but I NS> realize that the potential for almost any human to become a NS> Jeffery Dahmler or Mansonian exists under the proper NS> conditions. I wouldn't know about 'releasing' those depths. Becoming aware of, accepting, and learning from, as well as re-awakening their Power, YES. NS> You say Kaballa, I say Cthulhu NS> Kaballa... Cthulhu... NS> Let's blow the whole thing up!!! Hehehehehe.... NS> Do you believe that all neophyte's with a yearning towards NS> the Dark realms should ground themselves safely in the NS> Dayside Rays before they can safely bathe under the DARK NS> MOON? Considering the fact that most, if not all, NightSide material is derived from, and intended for, the 'advanced' occultist, I think that the nuances would probably be missed by someone without a good education and much practical experience in DaySide Magick. Forget everything you know about Qabala, and then read Grant: pure gibberish! It's almost gibberish anyway, just due to the nature of the subject matter. And while it might be _possible_ to explore the Tunnels without the assistance of the HGA, I wouldn't recommend it. All the really interesting Rites recorded in _Hecate's_Fountain_ were performed by Magickians with years of experience and the requisite Inner Contacts(tm). I'm suspecting, and Grant as much as says so in _Eden_, that access to Daath is not really an option until at least 5=6 or equivalent Initiation in Tiphareth. Until one has thereby (or otherwise) acquired an utterly unshakable certainty in one's own Divinity, trafficking with those Outside is likely to be somewhat problematical. On the one hand, They don't seem to be in the least interested in someone who doesn't know who he is, and on the other, if you _do_ manage to get Their attention, in your ignorance you're likely to give away the store. And without the additional instruction from the HGA one is _really_ working in the Dark, considering the paucity of useful source material, and even with, it's easy to make painful mistakes (I once tried evoking Amprodias into a crystal using the 19th Key.....before I read Grant's warning... ..DON'T DO THAT.) There's a lot of Work indicated, before the NightSide becomes much more than a day trip.... Love is the law, love under will. ___ X BABBLE v1.0 X Company of Heaven exposed; film at eleven. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark Ad Area: Night Side To: Frater Almost 25 Jun 92 18:30:14 Subject: Re: DARKNESS Rec'd UpdReq > yours..... I just reserve the right to crush unicorns under my heels > in order to frighten away the Wiccans. }B-> Pax! 93 Greetings Almost! Just be aware that there are some Wiccans lurking about that don't scare worth a damn! :) Also, unicorns are pretty good at taking care of themselves :) Blessed Be. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Night Side To: Mark Ad 25 Jun 92 22:35:36 Subject: Re: DARKNESS UpdReq Unicorns are nothing......... Or, at least, to THIS echo they ain't! Let's keep the stuff here dark and forboding shall we? If you have any tales of a "dark Goddess" aspect to relate, then please, by all means, do so..... Some of the most haunting poetry I've ever read was by a "Dark Wiccan" friend of mine.... She wrote about what the druids really did on Halloween! };> Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Frater Almost 26 Jun 92 18:06:24 Subject: ASSUMPTION OF MODERATORSHIP Rec'd Sent UpdReq FA> tons of Satanic / Cthonic / Setian / Voodoo FA> messages here.... So much so that it'd make anybody FA> opposed to that sort of thing blanch. Go for it... FA> So, Markie, tear loose and let's talk about the FA> Shining Trapezoheadron and the Yezidis, shall we? Egads, now I have to do review work just to carry on a conversation... Right now I'm immersed in my own perspective of Spare's works for commentaries in `The Book', maybe when I finish that I'll have some better conversation to contribute. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Nick Frost 26 Jun 92 18:09:20 Subject: Re: ASSUMPTION OF MODERATORSHIP Sent UpdReq NF> Not to worry lil' Markie. old Nick is still NF> around. I just don't have the time to keep up NF> with all the messages anymore. You and me both. What's your excuse? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Amergin O'kai 26 Jun 92 18:10:38 Subject: More technical difficulties Sent UpdReq AO> Did you leave that message in the Nightside AO> echo? I was just on Dragonfriend's and there were AO> *no* messages in the echo. He dosen't seem to be AO> receiving this echo from Westwind now (he was a few AO> weeks ago), but he may have an internal problem AO> rather than a feed problem. I'm about ready to AO> give up on him. Assuming the `him' in this convwersation is Nachash (some vague memory...) I seem to remember seeing a message somewhere that he was having tech problems in re-setting up in new orleans. I suspect he'll get it worked out and everything will get back to normally abnormal sooner or later. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Frater Almost 26 Jun 92 18:21:42 Subject: DANIEL AND LEILAH Rec'd Sent UpdReq Sounds like you made some good friends down there. I wouldn't mind going back for a visit sometime myself. If it didn't get so damned HOT in New Orleans, I'd move there! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Neuro Sonic 26 Jun 92 18:27:20 Subject: Where does EVIL lurk? Sent UpdReq NS> Do you believe that all neophyte's with a yearning NS> towards the Dark realms should ground themselves NS> safely in the Dayside Rays before they can safely NS> bathe under the DARK MOON? NS> NS> Wow, this was getting kinda intense before I had to butt in. I was just getting quite pleased to see the resrgence of interesting subject matter here myself. To answer your question quoted above, I usually recommend to newbies to practice with wiccans awhile to get a feel for magic before getting into anything that could require more intense control. whether this translates as firm grounding...maybe. The think is to look at magic white and black as a matter of balance, not good or evil. What constitutes good or evil is largely open to interpretation. Someone who is new to magic should get a feel for it and some knowledge of how it works before trying anything major. Wiccans tend to consentrate on healing rituals which are relatively harmless, and also many groups teach a lot of cultural history which doesn't hurt. The true independent thinkers can get past the religious and moralistic teachings that come with _SOME_ wicca groups. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Azoth 26 Jun 92 18:34:40 Subject: Coil Sent UpdReq A> I've heard more about COIL lately than ever before. Where might one A> go searching (CD, cassette, LP, whatever)? Charles Nemo collects their stuff as well as some others. His method is to find a record store that is willing to keep an eye out for special orders, as mnuch of this stuff is limited edition from England. We get CD's, I don't know much about what is available in other forms but Chuckles may know, and may spend more time here when I tell him people are talking abot Lovecraft again. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Mark Ad 26 Jun 92 18:39:52 Subject: Re: DARKNESS Sent UpdReq MA> Just be aware that there are some Wiccans lurking MA> about that don't scare worth a damn! :) Also, MA> unicorns are pretty good at taking care of MA> themselves :) Wiccans that don't scare and unicorns that can take care of themselves when the lights go out have always been welcome here. The objection is to the variety that get all upset about LHP conversations. Those of us who have been on this echo from it's inception come here to enjoy freedom of discussion without getting preached at, as you must know there are some wiccans who will, almost like psuedo-xtians. Frater Almost, wonderful person that he is, is even less tactful than I am in expressing himself. ;) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 26 Jun 92 19:18:58 Subject: Re: DARKNESS Sent UpdReq Less tactful? Maybe..... Nah, definately. But I do get my message across or at least I wind up sucking-toe-jam in the trying! ;-) I await your publication with baited-breath, but, then again, I'm just an old bait-chewer from way-back! :) Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Frater Almost Area: Night Side To: All 26 Jun 92 19:20:16 Subject: Dark Star of the West Sent UpdReq 93 / 666 I have been researching the use of the "Barbarous Names of Invcation" in Crowley's Liber Samekh and have come across a few oddities..... First off, I might say that the names, being "Barbarous" (O Satan, Thou Eye, Thou Lust!, etc.) seem to be more "one-sided" and out of accord with Temperance or Alchemical Art (The Card atttributed to Samekh in the Standard Tarot and in the Thoth Deck.) Upon doing some research, it seems more that Crowley is moving up the Path of Ayin instead of Samekh or, if that is not the case, then he is secrelty using Achad's revised Tree and is moving up Mem and treating the reflection of Tiphareth as being the Lower Impetus, etc. If the use of Achad's tree is the case, then it would seem to make sense. Perchance this also gives us a clue as to the proper usage of Samekh.... Wait until you are the Hanged Man, exhibiting neither motion nor stabillity, and then do the Bornless Ritual..... Kinda like the Dark Night of Pan. But this still gives Achad's Tree a seemingly "darker" flavour..... It is as if the "Star in the East" which could be Raphael or Tiphareth is suddenly "reflected" in the water of the West. Any comments or debates here? Help me re-asses this.... I ssem to be confusing myself again! :) Pax. 93 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: Azoth 26 Jun 92 22:00:38 Subject: COIL Sent UpdReq You might try Wax Trax out of Chicago. They carry all the new stuff and can back order many old things. I have all COIL's CDs and several LPs. We can talk about specifics if you wish, e.g., the "Hellraiser" CD and cassette are substantially different! The cassette has elevator musick on the second side -- airy, pop stuff. The CD is actually a mini-CD and is strictly unreleased stuff from the movie (none of COIL's material was used in the movie). There is also a "Hellraiser" soundtrack from the movie, and it is worthwhile in and of itself.... John Balance was in fact affiliated with the now-dormant Esoteric Order of Dagon -- one of several casualties of the anti-occult epidemic now troubling England. His work has a definitely Lovecraftian flavor.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tony Iannotti Area: Night Side To: Frater Almost 26 Jun 92 23:04:32 Subject: Bate/Bait Sent UpdReq -=In a missive of 26 Jun 92 19:18:29, Frater Almost said to Markie Chao=- (regarding Re: DARKNESS) FA> I await your publication with baited-breath, but, then again, I'm just FA> an old bait-chewer from way-back! :) Pax. 93 Isn't that bated breath, as in abate? Or Norman? ... The Horse in Exile. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718