From: Jon B Area: Night Side To: Gerald Del Campo 25 Apr 92 13:03:46 Subject: Re: CROWLEY AND WICCANS UpdReq > In a message dated 21 Apr 92 08:50:43, Grendel wrote: > >GDC> The Gardenian variety of WICCANS must realize that Gardner got >GDC> most of his material from Crowley...actually Crowley wrote the >GDC> stuff for him. So, the meaning must be the same (since it came >GDC> from a Thelemic source). > >G> I'm a Gardnerian, initiated in a legit line and everything. The >G> current opinion of the above is that it is a load of BS made up by >G> some OTO member in the 60s to try to get our goats. Sure, Gardner knew >G> Crowley and sure he had a charter to initiate and form a lodge. That >G> doesn't mean the he did or that Crowley wrote his material. The more >G> reasonable (especially if you've seen some of the early BOS material) >G> theory is Gardner borrowed heavily from Crowley's published writings. >G> I've seen no evidence for your theory unless the OTO is hiding some >G> information. > Grendal, if the whole gardnerian wicca as a front for the OTO is BS, as you state, then parhaps you'd care to explain why crowley chartered gardner to form an OTO camp, and promulugate wicca rather than thelema? << or i am just misinterpreting the charter that crowley gave gardner in 44 >> and take another look at WICCA.ARJ at haditnet, grendel . 93 jonathon 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Night Side To: Grendel 26 Apr 92 12:52:28 Subject: Satanic roots of Wicca Sent UpdReq On April 21, you responded to my April 19 message to All, "Satanic roots of Wicca": . G > I don't really disagree with your theory personally but I notice you are quoting Aidan Kelly's book all of the time on this sort of thing. You aren't going to get anywhere doing that. I don't think you realize how many people (including Doreen Valiente who wrote the Charge of the Goddess for Gardner) Aidan pissed off by the way he wrote that book and the way he ignored all of the evidence that didn't conform to his viewpoint. It is not considered a respectable group and, in fact, one of my buddies who is a lawyer found it to be about the worse put together and thought out book on Wicca he had ever read. .See the messages I posted yesterday (April 25) to you and Lorax in PAGAN RELIGIOUS STUDIES. .What books on the history of Wicca would *you* recommend? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Night Side To: Bobby Meizer 26 Apr 92 12:55:14 Subject: Crowley and Satanism Sent UpdReq Did you see my April 21 message to you, "RE: Satanic roots of Wicca", in which I responded to your objection to my April 19 message to All, "Satanic roots of Wicca"? .In neither of those two messages did I express myself very well regarding Crowley. Let me try again. .It appears to me (so far) that Crowley's Satanic symbolism did play a key role in his system -- that it was more than just leg-pulling, as some have asserted -- even though some of Crowley's attitudes were quite inconsistent with that symbolism, and even though Satanic symbolism was only one part of his wide-ranging eclectic mix. .At the very least, the ambivalent use of Satanic trappings seems to be an effective way of jump-starting a new religion -- as a way of attracting attention to it, if nothing else. I suspect it also has deeper magic(k)al/spiritual significance as well. I haven't read enough of Crowley's writings to be sure exactly what that significance was, but, so far, it appears to to me that its main purpose is to help people break free of the constraints of Christian/"Osirian" ways of thinking. Also it's my impression, so far, that Crowley seriously believed he was "the Beast 666" prophesied in Revelation, though he didn't accept Christian theology. Do you agree with my impressions? .Some folks have tried to minimize the significance of Crowley's Satanic symbolism by saying he didn't believe in Satan. This objection is beside the point. Most Satanists don't believe in the literal existence of the Christian Satan, either. .However, some of Crowley's attitudes were quite un-Satanic. In MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE, Chapter XXI, he denounces what he calls "Black Magic" as follows: . The single Supreme Ritual is the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. [...] Any other operation is Black Magic. [...] Until the Great Work has been performed, it is presumptuous for the magician to pretend to understand the universe, and dictate its policy. [...] The Master of the Temple accordingly interferes not with the scheme of things except just so far as he is doing the Work which he is sent to do. Why should he struggle against imprisonment, banishment, death? It is all part of the game in which he is a pawn. "It was necessary for the Son of Man to suffer these things, and to enter into His glory". .The idea of a cosmic plan to which humans should willingly submit is contrary to any form of Satanism I've ever heard of. Most forms of Satanism revolve around a Promethean defiance of the notion of a cosmic plan. .Nevertheless, it seems to me that Crowley's system received a significant energy boost from his various uses of the god-form of Satan. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Night Side To: Tim Maroney 26 Apr 92 12:58:30 Subject: RE: Pentagrams Sent UpdReq On April 20, you responded to my April 18 message to All, "Pentagrams": . TM > Courtesy of LeGrande Cinque-Mars, on alt.magick on USENET, comes the information that the teaching of the averse pentagram as representing the "evil" triumph of matter over spirit may be found in the Golden Dawn Pentagram ritual instruction, reprinted in Regardie's famous collection. .Thanks for the info. . TM > Also sorry for the general lack of participation lately, but I seem to be split in several directions at the moment (what with work and everything) and BBSing is usually the first thing to slip off the schedule. We will return to the important issues you and other have raised when I have the time to deal with them properly, OK? .I'm looking forward to it. .By the way, did you see my two-part April 19 message to you, "Satanism and laissez-faire capitalism", and my message to Nrrys, "Tim and Satanism"? Do you still identify as a "Satanist" in any sense of the word, especially given the group you're now working with? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Night Side To: Gerald Del Campo 26 Apr 92 12:59:58 Subject: Re: Pentagrams Sent UpdReq On April 20, you responded to my April 18 message to All, "Pentagrams": . DV > Does anyone know when and how the downward-pointing pentagram came to be associated with Satanism? . GDC > The "down pointing pentagram" is actually the first pentagram. It was a symbol of the God Pan. Pan (like Baphomet) was able to unite his animal nature with the highest aspirations of the Soul; hence the animal/human form. The inverted pentagram (as it is called) is a symbol of the god Pan. Later, it became a symbol which illustrated the weight of the elements on the element of spirit; or the earthly elements suspended above Spirit. The funnymentalists (good word...thanks :)) later took this to be "ebil". .Can you recommend any books which deal with the history of the pentagram? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Night Side To: Charles Nemo 26 Apr 92 13:01:16 Subject: The Black Flame Rec'd Sent UpdReq On April 20, you wrote me a message titled "The Black Flame" in response to my 2-part April 19 message to Tim Maroney, "Satanism and laissez-faire capitalism". . CN > Reasonable minds might differ about the pro- or anti-Nazi orientations of a number of groups and persons, since study of Nazi occultism is sometimes viewed as sympathy which may or may not be present at the same time. .I don't recall any ads in THE BLACK FLAME that mentioned the study of Nazi occultism, but there were quite a few ads (and articles) espousing right-wing extremist views. On the other hand, I don't have a problem with the study of Nazi occultism as discussed in the Temple of Set's "Order of the Trapezoid" statement. . CN > Nevertheless, I find the reviews section of The Black Flame to be a most useful lead to new information. I would buy the 'zine for that alone, regardless of my views on other contents. .Agreed. . CN > Similarly, I have noted the tremendous intellectual content of the ToS materials which I have seen. Unfortunately, most items are not available to non-Setians, but even the reading list (which is posted on many occult BBSs) is well worth having, especially for readers new to a particular subject area. .Yes, the ToS reading list has been quite helpful to me too. . CN > There are so few "darksiders" around that I work very hard to avoid squabbles. Feuds only detract from the already scarce resources our kind have to muster. Wouldn't it be great if the CoS, ToS and other "splinter" or unaffiliated groups could come together in even more of a co-operative forum than these humble computerized gatherings can offer? .I understand what you're saying, and, yes, it would be nice if the squabbles could be avoided. However, I *really* resent CoS's unrelenting insiuations that you have to share Anton LaVey's political views to be a true Satanist. And it really seems to me that CoS has nothing worthwhile to offer anymore besides the review section of BLACK FLAME. ToS, in contrast, is politically more-or- less neutral *and* has a lot more to offer, intellectually and magic(k)ally. So I don't feel terribly torn by the feud between ToS and CoS. My sympathies are definitely with ToS, even though I don't feel moved to join. .Thanks very much for the literature you sent me. The latest DARK LILY was very interesting, as was Bonewits's GNOSTICA article. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Charles Nemo Area: Night Side To: All 26 Apr 92 17:01:24 Subject: Dark Musick Sent UpdReq If you're into very dark, dirge-like musick, here are a few "goodies": 1. The double CD collection entitled "The Beast 666 & The Archangels of Sex" from Nekrophile USA, P.O. Box 83296, Portland, Oregon 97283. It's expensive at about $27.00 but well worthwhile. Silent Records in San Francisco also carries it. Numbered, limited edition of 1,000. My favorite tracks are 3 (Ain Soph's Theme III), 5 (Metgumnerbone's Death),10 (Zero Kama's V.V.V.V.V.), 11 (Postmortem's The Sea of Cefalu), 12 (Zero Kama's Seven Nights of Tantra), 13 (Ain Soph's Theme II) and 14 (Ewald Spiss' NTzCH). Also highly recommended are Current 93's "The Sadness of Things" and the CD soundtrack for "The Silence of the Lambs". 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Night Side To: Phule 25 Apr 92 10:11:30 Subject: Phule UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Blish did a remarkable job transposing the practices of the grimoires into the present in _Black_Easter_, wouldn't you say? Phul without a head indeed! That's the only fictional reference to Phul that comes to mind, but either of Waite's books on ceremonial magic can supply corroborative detail. The _Book_of_Black_Magic says this: "Lunary concerns are under the government of PHUL, who only transmutes all metals into silver, heals dropsy, and provides Spirits of the Water, who serve men in a corporal and invisible form; he also prolongs life to three hundred years." As I recall, the _Complete_Book_of_Ceremonial_Magic_ repeats substantially the same information (a funnymentalist born-again destroyed my working copy about a dozen years ago, but I have a fairly good memory.) The _Grimoire_of_Armadel_, translated by Mathers, also has a brief mention of PHUL, in the section 'Concerning the Life of Man': "(PHUL, GABRIEL) These spirits, besides the Life of Souls and of Man, do teach unto you all the Sciences which you shall desire to know." The sigils are then given, that of PHUL being similar but not identical to that in the _Arbatel_, and then this: "In this Sigil there is taught what may be the Life (of Man) and the Creation (of Souls) even until the time of their sending forth into bodies. There be also taught the great Mysteries which the Lord is willing to perform; and whether all Souls were created from such a creation alike and at one time, and so also whether such be reserved in a certain place so that going forth thence they may be sent into Bodies and rule therein for a period of time. These Spirits are to be invoked on a Monday and at Daybreak." Another possible source of information would be the Heptangle edition of Turner's translation of the _Arbatel_,_De_Magia_Verum_ which may contain more, but which I have been unable to locate and have not seen. This was published back in 1979, and appears to be rather rare. Love is the law, love under will. ... There is no law beyond. Do what thou wilt. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: Night Side To: Fra.:Nachash 25 Apr 92 12:10:22 Subject: Nightside of Eden UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Having now had some opportunity of studying _Nightside_, I believe I know where my technique was at fault in the Enochian operation of Amprodias, and I will to share this data with you, so as to possibly prevent any similar unpleasantness should you decide to experiment along a congruent line. I have always been, at best, an imperfect student, and mine HGA has led me well and truly, but for my own errant stupidity. Looking into Grant's dissertation on Amprodias, I was encouraged to find the enumeration, 401, to be also that of 'Azoth', (which is not, to be sure, the Name given me by Him, yet...) and, with little reflection, the operation to be a passable application of the formula of the Void amidst the Four and the One. He continues with a discussion of the pertinence of the Dorje(!) and the word ARR, 'cursing', clearly relative to the 19th Key (as the Beast said, the "original Curse on Creation") and what is called in Libri VII and LXV "the Wrong of the Beginning." The immediate usefulness of the phurba is also somewhat clearer, as Grant points out "the prime instrument is the dagger of air, that is to say the weapon that ruptures the hymen of the virgin aethyr...and exhibits the awful deity beyond the rim of the 'universe'; he who sits at the Centre of All...." But for all this, my sheerest folly was the continued use of the crystal as a focus of manifestation! Grant says this: "It will consequently also be plain...that the use of a crystal is not advisable, for in the event of such use the qlippoth would inevitably be constrained to manifest on the hither side of the Tree, and the imbalance thus generated by the vacuum created on the other side of the Tree would cause havoc in the subjective universe of the skryer." Yikes and Holy Shit! say I, having learned somewhat the hard way. Needless to say, I will not soon make a similar mistake! This, it seems, is quite a different sort of manifestation than the Vortex in the ritual of the "Hands of Power", which clearly doesn't try to bring the kelipoth HERE.... Sometimes I feel so stupid. Love is the law, love under will. ... Left, Left, I hadda good brain but it Left.... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Night Side To: Darklord 16 Apr 92 00:04:02 Subject: Re: Satanism and Sociali UpdReq quoting darklord to jonathon DA>Jo> you realize that the constitution is not, nor ever was, a DA>Jo> legally DA>Jo> binding document upon any government in this country << the usa DA>Jo> >> DA> Well lets over through the government. you know, we could always stage another coup-de-tat 93 jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * Save the Whales. Collect the entire set! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Night Side To: Gerald Del Campo 16 Apr 92 00:10:04 Subject: Re: Satanism and Sociali UpdReq quoting gerald del campo to darklord GDC>Also, just for the record: The IRS is NOT a Government GDC>Office, but a private Corporation in Michigan. Can you document that? 93 jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * Writing Shrink := 404-814-0363 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Area: Night Side To: Glenn Sieb 19 Apr 92 17:10:20 Subject: Re: Crowley and Wiccans UpdReq quoting glenn sieb to gerald de campo GS>Gerald...you're warping the Wiccan meaning of 'wilt'. It is *not* similar GS>to the Thelemic definition of 'will'. When one says "Do what thou wilt", GS>they are saying to do whatever you want. Not do what your Will tells you. GS>There is a *big* difference between 'Do what thou wilt' and 'Do what thou you are right in that gerald is slightly altering the meaning of the wiccan "wilt." He is equating it with self-responsibity, something most wiccans don't seem to understand is implicit within the Law of Thelema. & the thelimic law most definatly has nothing to do with doing whatever you want to do. 93 jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nrrys Area: Night Side To: Diane Vera 21 Apr 92 22:42:14 Subject: Tim and Satanism Rec'd UpdReq DV>I think you have an exaggerated impression of Tim's beliefs. I was just talking to him in his own "language" :-) I do that! Se habela "Card carrying Liberal"? DV>But you're right that Tim is (or at least *was*) into a very unusual DV>form of "Satanism". Personally, I'm inclined to think of Tim's DV>orientation as another Satanic-derived religion -- like Thelema, DV>Wicca, and feminist Goddess religion -- rather than a form of DV>Satanism per se, except that Tim is more honest about his Satanic DV>roots than the others tend to be. Are you sure that he wasn't just enamored of the "S" word? DV>Unlike Tim, I do relate (symbolically) to the god-form of Satan. DV>But when I acknowledged my attraction to Satanism last year, I found DV>Tim's viewpoint very helpful to me. Tim does seem to be an intellegent person. A rarity to be cherished in these times... DV>For me, one of my biggest DV>hurdles in acknowledging my attraction to Satanism has been the DV>extreme right-wing attitudes of the LaVey crowd. They do seem to be bad news... DV>I'm not as left- DV>wing as Tim is, but his views are a refreshing counter-balance. It is always more educational to speak with someone whose views are not the same as you own... DV>Also, Tim is very knowledgeable about the history of occultism and DV>how the various modern magic(k)al religions are inter-connected. Yes, I find the paganoids out here incredibly ignorant about their roots! I'm trying to study the history, myself. Have you read Valente's history, _The Rebirth of Witchcraft_? Highly recommended! May you never thirst! NRRYS ___ X OLX 2.1 TD X Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar -- Sigmund Freud 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nrrys Area: Night Side To: Theseus 25 Apr 92 00:00:24 Subject: Re: CROWLEY AND WICCANS UpdReq TH>When you think about it, most people have more than one persona that they TH>show, depending on what they are doing and with whom. I've always believed that being able to experence more than one "viewpoint" (or "persona", or "reality") IS magick. TH>I know this got WAY off the original topic, but I felt this urge....... I have contempt for those whose minds work only in a straight line :-) May you never thirst! NRRYS ___ X OLX 2.1 TD X Ever stop to think and forget to start again? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Nrrys Area: Night Side To: Diane Vera 25 Apr 92 00:00:26 Subject: Re: Phil Marsh and Tani Rec'd UpdReq DV>(And if anyone today were to set up a religion venerating the Old- DV>Testament Satan, it would be difficult if not impossible to avoid DV>overtones of the Christian Satan. At the very least, those DV>overtones would be enjoyed on the sly, despite emphatic denials, in DV>much the same way Wiccans relate ambivalently to *their* Satanic DV>overtones by insisting on using a constellation of terminology DV>derived from accusations against alleged Satanists, e.g. "witch", DV>"coven", and "sabbat".) Good points! The pagan community's attempts to "whitewash" their heritage is most definitely anti-magickal... N> Do you believe that there were no "Satanists" B.C.E.? DV>If you have any evidence that there were, I would be most intrigued DV>to see it. I was thinking of individuals, not of an organised group. It would seem resonable that at least one person back then had beliefs that we would consider "Satanic"? ___ X OLX 2.1 TD X Thank you, O wise and quick-witted one! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Jonathon Blake Area: Night Side To: Grendel 26 Apr 92 04:26:08 Subject: Re: Crowley and Wiccans UpdReq quoting From: GRENDEL To: GERALD DEL CAMPO ___------------------------------------------------------------------------ GR>I've seen no evidence for your theory unless the OTO is GR>hiding some information. the former Ripleys Believe it or not Museum, actually Xeper jonathon * SLMR 2.1a * The diff between a nat'l hi & lo emplmnt rates is 2% 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718