From: Grendel Area: Night Side To: Gerald Del Campo 21 Apr 92 08:50:42 Subject: Re: Crowley and Wiccans UpdReq In a msg on , Gerald Del Campo of 1:349/7 writes: GDC> The Gardenian variety of WICCANS must realize that Gardner got GDC> most of his material from Crowley...actually Crowley wrote the GDC> stuff for him. So, the meaning must be the same (since it came GDC> from a Thelemic source). I'm a Gardnerian, initiated in a legit line and everything. The current opinion of the above is that it is a load of BS made up by some OTO member in the 60s to try to get our goats. Sure, Gardner knew Crowley and sure he had a charter to initiate and form a lodge. That doesn't mean the he did or that Crowley wrote his material. The more reasonable (especially if you've seen some of the early BOS material) theory is Gardner borrowed heavily from Crowley's published writings. I've seen no evidence for your theory unless the OTO is hiding some information. Wassail, Grendel 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Area: Night Side To: Diane Vera 21 Apr 92 08:53:48 Subject: Satanic roots of Wicca UpdReq In a msg on , Diane Vera of 1:278/666 writes: DV> See CRAFTING THE ART OF MAGIC by Aidan Kelly, pp. 21-22, 25-26, DV> and 176. Victor Anderson, founder of the "Fairy Tradition" (into DV> which Starhawk was initiated) was originally into an early 20th-century DV> form of Satanism. Gerald Gardner drew some key concepts from the DV> description of folk Satanism in OZARK SUPERSTITION by Vance DV> Randolph (1947). Many of Gardner's rituals are based on Aleister DV> Crowley's rituals, which contained an eclectic mix of imagery and ideas DV> from many religions, prominently including Satanism. Crowley used DV> lots of Christian-derived Satanic symbolism, and was also into DV> equating Satan with various ancient horned Gods such as Pan. (Crowley did DV> not believe in the literal existence of Satan as understood by DV> Christianity, but then neither do most Satanists.) I don't really disagree with your theory personally but I notice you are quoting Aidan Kelly's book all of the time on this sort of thing. You aren't going to get anywhere doing that. I don't think you realize how many people (including Doreen Valiente who wrote the Charge of the Goddess for Gardner) Aidan pissed off by the way he wrote that book and the way he ignored all of the evidence that didn't conform to his viewpoint. It is not considered a respectable group and, in fact, one of my buddies who is a lawyer found it to be about the worse put together and thought out book on Wicca he had ever read. Wassail, Grendel 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: Night Side To: Frc 21 Apr 92 10:24:26 Subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: freethinkers don't censorUpdReq Your message arrived here garbled. If it is important, you should resend it. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: Night Side To: The Sinistar 21 Apr 92 10:26:26 Subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: freethinkers don't censorUpdReq Just following orders, huh? By accepting the censorious will of the moderator of that echo, and by enforcing it, you become as culpable as the moderator. Don't try to defer responsibility for your actions. It never ceases to amaze me how few "occultists" and "magicians" realize that they always have the option of refusing to take orders from others! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: Night Side To: Grendel 21 Apr 92 10:43:42 Subject: RE: Re: freethinkers don't censor UpdReq In a message to Tim Maroney written on Monday, April 20, 1992 at 17:58:17, Grendel writes: Gre> Easy words for someone who doesn't run his own system. I'm sorry, Gre> Timmy, but when the sysops, such as myself, put as much time and money Gre> as we do into our systems, they stay OURS. That means, we can kick Gre> someone off for any reason we see fit. I have yet to have to do so but Gre> I am prepared for it if I have to. This is not a free medium. It costs Gre> money and the sysops are the ones who are paying for it and, therefor, Gre> control access. When everyone can hook up a personal Gre> node for free, then we won't have this problem. I'll take my ball and go home. Hardly a mature, courageous, or progressive attitude. No one has disputed your RIGHT to behave in this way, but then others have the RIGHT to call this childish, cowardly, regressive behavior the censorship which it is. Why not just have a board where people call up to read your pearls of wisdom, without posting their drivel in response? Oh, yes, one would miss the drooling yes-men... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: Night Side To: Bobby Meizer 21 Apr 92 23:07:20 Subject: RE: Re: freethinkers don't censor UpdReq There seems to be a fundamental problem in this country in understanding the distinction between "having the right" to do something, and it "being right" to do something. You have the legal right to do all sorts of stupid and awful things, like censoring the views of others. But that doesn't make it right to do so! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Glenn Sieb Area: Night Side To: Diane Vera 22 Apr 92 20:26:12 Subject: Re: Satanism, Wicca, and Thelema Sent UpdReq -=> In a magickal message to Glenn Sieb, Diane Vera said <=- DV> See my April 19 message to All, "Satanic roots of Wicca", which DV> immediately preceded the message to which you responded. (I don't DV> mean to imply that Wicca is derived *only* from Satanism. DV> However, some central concepts *are* derived from various forms of DV> Satanism, though this usually isn't acknowledged.) Since I am currently out of work, I do not have time to go and grab back messages in any echos. Every minute I spend on this BBS costs my big bucks, and I just can't afford it until I've attained gainful employment, Diane. My comment was: How can a religion that's supposed to have been around for thousands of years, get anything from Satanists, which have only been around since Christianity? That was my question, and it went unanswered. DV> Gardenarian don't really care. (Not to sound cold or DV> callous, but by your statement (and the way it was typed), DV> I am to assume that you assume that all real "WICCANS" are DV> Gardenarian. This is not so DV> . DV> As for whether all "real" Wiccans are Gardnerian, have you debated DV> that question with Khaled and Adrienne? You misread me. Read it again. Gerald was the one who was intimating that all Wiccans are Gardnerian. I am Wiccan. I am not Gardnerian. I have spoken with both Khaled & Adrienne on different echos, and have never had any arguments with them. DV> Anyhow, don't you think most Wiccans (broadly defined) have drawn DV> considerable inspiration from Gardner (at least indirectly), even if DV> they aren't Gardnerian? I guess it all depends if one has any Gardnerian background, doesn't it, Diane? I have none. Why would I consider my religion based on Gardnerian principles (which, by the by, were very homophobic...)? I do not see that the majority getting their information from Gardner makes it a constant for all Wiccans.... That was my question earlier... DV> As for Crowley, if one looks through the rituals in MAGICK IN THEORY DV> AND PRACTICE, one will come across occasional bits of ritual that DV> will sound awfully familiar to a well-read Wiccan. I don't have DV> time to dig through the book and find them all, but here's one DV> example I find off-hand: I guess so, if one has read a lot of Gardner, which I have not. And, I do consider myself fairly well-read in Wicca, Diane. There are many more flavours of Wicca than just Gardnerian, as any Wiccan will tell you. B*B Glenn ... Meddle not w/affairs of Dragons, for you be crunchy & good w/ketchup. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Glenn Sieb Area: Night Side To: All 22 Apr 92 20:49:48 Subject: Hello/Goodbye Sent UpdReq Well, it's finally happened. Unemployment has run out. No jobs nibbling on the line. So, I'll get on when I can... but I don't know how I'm going to pay this month's phone bill to begin with. They'll probably shut it off on me (sigh). I've posted my address on these echos a few days/weeks back...they should still be around...if not ask Theseus, Worick, and anyone else who happens to have it... Thanks all, and I hope to be able to get back on soon.. Blessed be, Glenn ... The magick is in life itself 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718