From: Frc Area: Night Side To: Tim Maroney 20 Apr 92 17:55:00 Subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: freethinkers don't censorUpdReq TM> > I suppose there should be no consensus, no lines, no rules? TM> Not about what people can say, no, except for the restrictions on TM> actually TM> harmful speech that are already part of the law. I don't agree. Legalities aside, I can think of many situations where by "contract", tacit or otherwise, we limit or edit our speech for the furthering of common goals. Like a lecture or classroom, for example. And I don't really think it necessary to defend "boogers and snot" type of messages. If you feel that is something worth fighting for, then so be it!! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Phule Area: Night Side To: Nrrys 20 Apr 92 20:21:00 Subject: Re: Magic and Me UpdReq Hey, would have responded sooner but forgot to check mail at my old alias, As a matter of fact that book is 4 books from the top of my READ NOW RIGHT NOW list. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Phule Area: Night Side To: Markie Chao 20 Apr 92 20:23:00 Subject: Re: * Rec'd UpdReq Hey, by the way did I point out that I pronounce it 'fool' ? But I do think the other dude is right. Zhule rings a bell in regards to the kitchen haunt! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Phule Area: Night Side To: Azoth 20 Apr 92 20:33:00 Subject: Re: Phule UpdReq Hey I'd appreciate any info on Phul. I got the name from a GREAT work of fiction, but if it has any other signifigance I'd like to know. the phulish one! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Sinistar Area: Night Side To: Tim Maroney 20 Apr 92 21:28:00 Subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: freethinkers don't censorUpdReq TM> To me, this is likely saying that you hardly ever murder anyone, so TM> what's the TM> big deal? Well then you tend to overdo things then, huh? You scream censorship on my part for censoring ONE user for the trouble he caused on my system. Would it not be WORST to have NOT censored this ONE user, and in turn, having my entire BBS (350+ users) kicked out of the echo Darklord caused trouble in? Like I already stated twice, Nightside is only ONE of the echos he caused trouble in. The local religion echo moderator didn't take kindly to his comments in his base, and informed me not to let it happen again or he would cut the feed to my system. I chatted with Darklord, and have since re-established his access to the BBS, with the exception of the religion echo. -=Sinistar=- 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: Night Side To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 09:29:24 Subject: RE: Pentagrams Rec'd UpdReq Courtesy of LeGrande Cinque-Mars, on alt.magick on USENET, comes the information that the teaching of the averse pentagram as representing the "evil" triumph of matter over spirit may be found in the Golden Dawn Pentagram ritual instruction, reprinted in Regardie's famous collection. Sorry not to get you the information sooner. Also sorry for the general lack of participation lately, but I seem to be split in several directions at the moment (what with work and everything) and BBSing is usually the first thing to slip off the schedule. We will return to the important issues you and other have raised when I have the time to deal with them properly, OK? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: Night Side To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 18:50:20 Subject: RE: Satanic roots of Wicca Rec'd UpdReq In a message to everyone written on Sunday, April 19, 1992 at 19:57:00, Diane Vera writes: DV> Satan with various ancient horned Gods such as Pan. (Crowley did DV> not believe in the literal existence of Satan as understood by DV> Christianity, but then neither do most Satanists.) It's a bit presumptuous to declare without any qualification at all what someone else believes. Especially when you are admittedly far from an expert on Crowley's writings. Short of quoting from the man himself, I would suggest you at least make this kind of statement more explicitly equivocal. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Area: Night Side To: Tim Maroney 20 Apr 92 17:58:16 Subject: RE: Re: freethinkers don't censor UpdReq In a msg on , Tim Maroney of 1:125/51 writes: TM> No one is forcing anyone to run a BBS. But if someone chooses to TM> do so, then they accept the moral responsibility of preserving freedom of TM> speech. If they are unwilling to shoulder this burden -- a burden which TM> will often force them to make painful choices -- then they are unfit to be TM> system operators and should not seek that role. Easy words for someone who doesn't run his own system. I'm sorry, Timmy, but when the sysops, such as myself, put as much time and money as we do into our systems, they stay OURS. That means, we can kick someone off for any reason we see fit. I have yet to have to do so but I am prepared for it if I have to. This is not a free medium. It costs money and the sysops are the ones who are paying for it and, therefor, control access. When everyone can hook up a personal node for free, then we won't have this problem. Wassail, Grendel 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Glenn Sieb Area: Night Side To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 00:58:50 Subject: Re: Tim and Satanism Rec'd Sent UpdReq -=> In a magickal message to Nrrys, Diane Vera said <=- DV> form of "Satanism". Personally, I'm inclined to think of Tim's DV> orientation as another Satanic-derived religion -- like Thelema, DV> Wicca, and feminist Goddess religion -- rather than a form of DV> Satanism per se, except that Tim is more honest about his Satanic Um, Diane.... May I ask how you came to the conclusion that Wicca is a 'Satanic-derived' religion? This facinates me.... (Especially considering the basic tenets of Goddess-based religions are pre-Christianity...) Thanks for the reply in advance... B*B Glenn ... The magick is in life itself 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Glenn Sieb Area: Night Side To: Gerald Del Campo 20 Apr 92 23:38:14 Subject: Re: Crowley and Wiccans Sent UpdReq -=> In a magickal message to Glenn Sieb, Gerald Del Campo said <=- GDC> The Gardenian variety of WICCANS must realize that Gardner got most of GDC> his material from Crowley...actually Crowley wrote the stuff for him. GDC> So, the meaning must be the same (since it came from a Thelemic GDC> source). Very interesting, Gerald. I've never heard of Wicca being a descendant of Thelema. It still does not change the Wiccan meaning of "Wilt", nor the meaning of the Charge. I've never heard this theory that Crowley wrote anything for Gerald, and those of us who are not Gardenarian don't really care. (Not to sound cold or callous, but by your statement (and the way it was typed), I am to assume that you assume that all real "WICCANS" are Gardenarian. This is not so, and you should know better from your posts in the MagickNet triad. GDC> OUCH! I guess it depends on ones definition of 'feminist'. There is GDC> feminism and there is fanaticism by a few calling themselves feminists GDC> who are in reality men-haters and want nothing to do with them. I GDC> always thought that feminism was the idea that women were equal, and GDC> therefore deserve to have the same rights and opportunities as men. I feel that *people* are equal, and that *people* should all have the same rights, no matter of: Sex, race, creed, colour, sexual orientation, or any other thing you can come up with. GDC> I understand the confusion. Even some 'young' Thelemites have GDC> problems with that statement because they do not understand the GDC> concept of Divine Will. Once you have discovered your place within GDC> the universe your Will is God's Will. Well, I am not 'confused' per se, but rather, confused at your references. I have heard of no such reference to Crowley being the 'father behind the father' of the Craft. Plus, I do not recognize a 'God' per se, but rather a God/Goddess duality, as you know most Wiccans do. I also don't really accept a 'Divine Will', rather I accept that the Gods do what they can for those that ask, and only those things that the Gods deem them worthy of. I'm hardly about to go ask any of my Gods/Goddesses for something that I can neither use, nor am ready for. On the other hand, I accept the fact that *you* and others may follow a path that consists of a God. Or a Goddess. Or nothing. This does not bother me in the slightest. Religion is a very personal path through the Wood that is the Universe. Blessed be, Glenn ... My name is Glenn Sieb. I'm a witch. I carry a badge 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Gerald Del Campo 21 Apr 92 22:13:02 Subject: Re: Crowley Sent UpdReq I expect that some British are embarrassed by Crowley, and others feel otherwise. The reference was to the term "Uncle Al" as opposed to "Mr. Crowley". File it under trivial information. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Markie Chao Area: Night Side To: Phule 21 Apr 92 22:14:44 Subject: Re: *Phule Sent UpdReq Actualy i figured out the pronunciation myself, although I only just now made a connection to a certain tarot card...yes, the guy was right. My memory is getting old. ;) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Night Side To: Bobby Meizer 21 Apr 92 22:23:08 Subject: RE: Satanic roots of Wicca Sent UpdReq On April 20, you responded to my April 19 message to All, "Satanic roots of Wicca": . BM > It's a bit presumptuous to declare without any qualification at all what someone else believes. Especially when you are admittedly far from an expert on Crowley's writings. Short of quoting from the man himself, I would suggest you at least make this kind of statement more explicitly equivocal. .You're right; I should have made the statement more explicitly equivocal. Here's a clarification: .Crowley was into symbolism from *many* different religions. Moreover, although he did use Satanic symbolism galore, his attitude was by no means consistently "Satanic" (by almost any reasonable definition of "Satanic"). For example, in MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE, Chapter XXI, section II, footnote 1, he equates "Satan" with his "Holy Guardian Angel". Yet this footnote occurs in the midst of an extended put-down of "Black Magic" -- a term he defines rather broadly. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Diane Vera Area: Night Side To: Glenn Sieb 21 Apr 92 22:24:54 Subject: Satanism, Wicca, and Thelema Sent UpdReq On April 20, you responded to my April 19 message to Nrrys, "Tim and Satanism": . GS > Um, Diane.... May I ask how you came to the conclusion that Wicca is a 'Satanic-derived' religion? This facinates me.... (Especially considering the basic tenets of Goddess-based religions are pre-Christianity...) .See my April 19 message to All, "Satanic roots of Wicca", which immediately preceded the message to which you responded. (I don't mean to imply that Wicca is derived *only* from Satanism. However, some central concepts *are* derived from various forms of Satanism, though this usually isn't acknowledged.) .Also on April 20, you wrote to Gerald Del Campo "Re: Crowley and Wiccans": . GS > Very interesting, Gerald. I've never heard of Wicca being a descendant of Thelema. It still does not change the Wiccan meaning of "Wilt", nor the meaning of the Charge. I've never heard this theory that Crowley wrote anything for Gerald, and those of us who are not Gardenarian don't really care. (Not to sound cold or callous, but by your statement (and the way it was typed), I am to assume that you assume that all real "WICCANS" are Gardenarian. This is not so .As for whether all "real" Wiccans are Gardnerian, have you debated that question with Khaled and Adrienne? .Anyhow, don't you think most Wiccans (broadly defined) have drawn considerable inspiration from Gardner (at least indirectly), even if they aren't Gardnerian? .As for Crowley, if one looks through the rituals in MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE, one will come across occasional bits of ritual that will sound awfully familiar to a well-read Wiccan. I don't have time to dig through the book and find them all, but here's one example I find off-hand: . O circle of Stars whereof our Father is but the younger brother, [...] not unto Thee may we attain, unless Thine image be Love. Therefore by seed and root and stem and bud and leaf and flower and fruit to we invoke Thee. .(This is from Liber XV, Ecclesiae Gnosticae Catholicae Canon Missae.) 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: Night Side To: Theseus 20 Apr 92 20:14:18 Subject: Re: CROWLEY AND WICCANS UpdReq In a message dated 19 Apr 92 01:12:49, Theseus wrote: > Most WICCANS I know are feminists. Crowley was not. ALSO, most > WICCANS I know are opposed to "Do what thou wilt..." without the > "An it harm none...", as if there were some kind of difference > between them. I am not opposed to the "An it harm none..." version. I think that personalities and egos try to create huge differences and dogmas by which to separate ourselves from our brothers and sisters. The fact that Ceremonialists and WICCANS use such similar codes of honor (for lack of a better term) is a much needed indicator that we are not at all that different. :) T> Through information I have learned on this and other echos, I have T> discovered that there is no ESSENTIAL difference between them, and that is T> what counts. I use the Gardnerian version because it is what I learned T> first, for lack of a logical reason (!). I want to thank everyone on T> these echos for their teaching. I have learned SO MUCH since first T> reading these msgs. So have I. And I have met very cool people here. And my understanding has increased 11 fold :) > But overall, I think most of today's Thelemites would agree that > Uncle AL was somewhat of an asshole. This does not, however, cancel > out his abilities and accomplishments as a Magician. It is the > Xtian concept that in order for man to have anything worth while he > must first be perfect (without the false ssense of sin). This is > the reason most fundies (in all religions, including Thelema) have a > tendency towards worshipping the Adept instead of striving to > accomplish the same task. T> Thank you for putting that concept into words! I even find myself T> worshipping people like Scott Cunningham or Ray Buckland, and have to T> catch myself. Me too :) Having started an import company which deals with incenses and oils Scott became one of my favorites. >> Alas, Crowley *was* awfully sexist and racist; there's no denying that! > > But he DID love women :) T> Of that there can be NO doubt! 93! Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: Night Side To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 20:23:18 Subject: Re: Crowley and Wiccans UpdReq In a message dated 18 Apr 92 21:11:54, Diane Vera wrote: DV> Crowley had lots of valuable insights, and provided a lot DV> of the inspiration (whether acknowledged or not) for most of today's DV> major magic(k)al religions. He was the archetypal misbehaved wizard :) DV> No, Crowley did not believe in the literal existence of the DV> Christian Satan, any more than most Satanists do. But he still used DV> plenty of Christian-derived Satanic symbolism (as a prominent part DV> of his eclectic mix of symbolism from lots of other religions too, DV> of course). Yes. I agree. I guess it was his way of "rubbing their nose in it" : Part of his "they'll believe anything" campaign >:-) DV> DV > Alas, Crowley *was* awfully sexist and racist; DV> there's no denying that! DV> . DV> GDC > But he DID love women :) DV> . DV> As long as their lives revolved around HIM (as he rather explicitly DV> said in MAGICK WITHOUT TEARS, Chapter 38, "Woman -- Her Magical DV> Formula"). I was making a pun. I meant "love" in the carnal (for lack of a better word) sense. 93! Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerald Del Campo Area: Night Side To: Diane Vera 20 Apr 92 21:05:18 Subject: Re: Pentagrams UpdReq In a message dated 18 Apr 92 21:13:16, Diane Vera wrote: DV> Does anyone know when and how the downward-pointing pentagram came DV> to be associated with Satanism? The "down pointing pentagram" is actually the first pentagram. It was a symbol of the God Pan. Pan (like Baphomet) was able to unite his animal nature with the highest aspirations of the Soul; hence the animal/human form. The inverted pentagram (as it is called) is a symbol of the god Pan. Later, it became a symbol which illustrated the weight of the elements on the element of spirit; or the earthly elements suspended above Spirit. The funnymentalists (good word...thanks :)) later took this to be "ebil". Gerald ... RPSTOVAL Oasis: Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718