From: Christeos Pir Area: Mundane To: All 16 Oct 94 11:53:42 Subject: Quote: UpdReq "Feminism ... encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - Pat Robertson ... Your torture increaseth as ye drink, yet still ye drink. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Weewil Grokyu Area: Mundane To: Amethyst 17 Oct 94 18:12:32 Subject: Anouncement UpdReq RE: Announcement It took me awhile to decide I wanted to respond to this, simply because I consider this issue to be one of those things that gets discussed to death without getting anywhere and eventually turns into a great big waste of breath. However, often there comes a time when you have to quit holding your breath, so....... > aborting and discuss its development? Do they tell them that there is such > thing as post-abortion trauma syndrome and how it can give them years of > and remorse, including moments of comtemplated suicide? The doctors and clinics who perform abortions around here are *very* intent on making sure you know *exactly* what you're doing. You have to watch an hour long videotape that tells you everything you ever wanted to know about embryonic development. There is a sheet you are given along with the taped lecture adding in certain other details. The doctor speaks with you extensively beforehand, and lets you know all the options you have facing you, including the effects of post-abortion trauma and how to find appropriate counselling. One doctor even goes to pains to tell you that you may schedule an appointment at any time with him to come in later and just talk. For free. Whenever you need to. Afterwards you are given a month's supply of birth control pills and a prescription for the same. You are taken to a room where you are made as comfortable as possible, hugged, and allowed to talk about anything you want, plus you're given a list of counselling services in the area if you choose to seek counselling. The people I dealt with were nonjudgmental, supportive, and professional. It didn't make any of it much easier, but it took some of the sting away and I was grateful for that. > I will never be there to support any other woman through it, either. It's a > selfish, senseless act of violence against a life. In an age where so many > loving people are childless and long to have a baby and there are so many > methods of contraception, there is no need for it. Every child conceived in > this world is wanted by someone, somewhere, and every woman should have the > sense and decency to take responsibility for her sexuality. And all the intolerance in the world isn't going to get those people a baby any faster. It's just going to push more kids into a closet with a coat hanger, as it almost did to me. And I consider that particular form of hatred to be a selfish, senseless act of violence against a life, too. > There simply can't be anything more selfish than a woman using her right to > own life to destroy the life of her unborn child because it isn't convenient > acceptable for her to carry to term and deliver the child inside her. And there simply can't be anything more self-righteous than assuming that every case is the same, or even holds a common deciding factor, and that there's a pat, answer-all solution that everyone can live with. You got a bad deal. I feel for you, but shit happens. I had never had sex without a condom and still got pregnant. I felt for me, but shit happens. The father and I had been planning to get married at some point anyway, but a couple of years later we broke up over unrelated issues. Shit just happens. Yes, Amethyst, I imagine I am quite the selfish bitch for not wanting to bring that child into the world. See, adoption wasn't an option for me. My entire life I had watched my father agonize over the whereabouts of his son from his previous marriage, and I wasn't going through that little taste of hell, thank you. If I had given birth, I could not have parted with the child and I know that for a fact. It isn't within me to do that after carrying it inside me for nine months. It was difficult enough to terminate the pregnancy after four weeks. However, had I carried it to full term I would have lost my job in the family business and been tossed out of the house completely. And then what could I have given the child? Sure, I could have kept my chin up and struggled through--been a brave little trooper and taken pride in telling everyone that my child was worth tenfold every moment of the pain, and I'm sure it would have been, too. But I chose not to take that path. And you're damn skippy when you say I did it for me, and me alone. Everything you do, you ultimately do for yourself anyhow, drape it though you may in noble intentions and warm gestures. If that sounds narcissistic, so be it. I'd rather be a self-admitted narcissist than a self-deluded liar. Now, I will not apologize or justify myself for having sex outside of wedlock, as that is in violation of my beliefs. I do not engage in casual sex, I am the most monogamous person you'll ever meet, I practice birth control WITHOUT FAIL at all times, (including on the day I conceived), and I believe sex for sex's sake is an empty experience which I don't care to participate in. Sex is an expression of love and a celebration of the bodies God/dess has gifted us with. Anything less than that is just getting your rocks off. Do I believe an embryo is 'alive' or 'ensouled'? I have no idea. I could only base my decision on the things that I did know at the time, and what I did know was that I couldn't bring that child into this world under those circumstances. In retrospect and in light of some of the things I now believe, I can tell you that I honestly feel that I freed that soul to come back to parents who may have been ready for it, and who were prepared to give it a good life. I don't believe this because I have to, though. I believe it just because I believe it. Do I regret the abortion? Sure, sometimes. For months afterwards I felt it tugging at the edges of my mind, and the word 'murderer' has whispered itself in my head a time or two before I could help it. When everything was quiet I sometimes caught myself wondering 'What if?', and that was probably the hardest part of all. But I learned alot from that episode, and I believe that the experience of learning is the reason we are all here. Not lessons about the virtues of double-bagging or which side you want to take in the abortion issue or why you shouldn't have premarital sex, but lessons that go much deeper; lessons about strength, about regret, and about love. I know that when/if I decide to have a child, I will love it fully. I'll be mature enough to care for it, loving enough to let it know that it was chosen, and responsible enough to let it have its own life. I may even name it 'Keeper' just for the hell of it. Does that sound like I'm making light of it? You betcha. It's make light of it or be crushed by it, and there I go being the happy narcissist again. So, because of this whole experience, people who know about it sometimes ask if I am pro-life or pro-choice. My answer is "yes, I am." I'm not going to wave a banner for either side, nor am I going to sit still for long while someone dares to imply in my presence that there is a blanket answer to this issue, and makes mass generalizations about the selfishness of women forced to make painful choices. If you truly believe that abortion is wrong, then I support your belief fully. But you might want to think before you stick a nasty label on a group of people who have never been in your shoes, and whose shoes you've never been in, either. 'Selfish' is also witholding love and tolerance based on the fact that one's life was hard, and that if everyone else can't learn from *your* mistakes, they aren't worthy of your consideration. 'Selfish' is also reserving compassion only for those who walk the same road as you. And 'selfish' is judging everyone else by the measure of your experiences. So when it comes to the matter of my abortion, okay--perhaps I was selfish, but at least it was only in that way. "An' it harm none, do what thou will." Well, the harm I did is over. The harm intolerance does continues. Now you know my story, too, and I'm not very unique in it. Thousands of women out there have been through what I just described. I am very sorry that you were hurt and that you were forced to give up your child, Amethyst. I imagine it was just as painful being forced to do it as it is to make that decision for yourself. But you see, there isn't just one kind of pain. There are many kinds, and none are any less intense than the others. Instead of snapping and squawking at one another over who made the right choice and who had the roughest time of it, wouldn't it be mutually beneficial to dump the intolerance and replace it with love, or at the very least, compassion? You spoke of what God/dess probably intended when a new life is created. What did God/dess intend for how we live the life we have now, and how we treat each other as manifestations of nature's ingenuity, regardless of our politics? Surely we weren't meant to consume the bowl of cherries that is life, but throw the pits at someone else? Now if you'll excuse me, I've been looking forward to polishing my mirror all day long. Wishing you peace, --wEeVeS * Origin: The Tower Noctvrnvs, Greensboro_NC_USA.(93:9600/39) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Paladin Area: Mundane To: Rose Dawn 18 Oct 94 13:35:00 Subject: Aids Scare!!! UpdReq RD> Eeyup...lipstick on the bathroom mirror was the version I RD> heard. I think it ranks right up there with Kentucky Fried RD> Rats, and babies on the barbie. Or the choking Doberman. Tue 10-18-94 13:35:39 Paladin * RM 1.4 * Do you know Jesus? Ask him why he never returned my calls! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Paladin Area: Mundane To: Christeos Pir 18 Oct 94 13:52:02 Subject: Quote: UpdReq CP> "Feminism ... encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their CP> children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." CP> - Pat Robertson Right up there with Fred Phelps. Tue 10-18-94 13:53:55 Paladin * RM 1.4 * Go to Bedlam and ask. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718