From: Mephisto Area: MagickNet To: KHEPHERA 8 Nov 96 00:55:00 Subject: Book Of Enoch UpdReq KH>M> Well, they did a workable synthesis. And looking at it from an KH>M> evolving-of-magick perspective, they did well. KH>I don't know myself. At this point I feel they diluted it somewhat. For Of course. I doubt there were many people in the GD proper that could handle the intricacies of Dee's original system, as it were... If Crowley's perceptions of the original group are to be believed, anyway. KH>instance, the Calls were meant to be used all together- all at once. They KH>aren't supposed to be used individually. Also, and this is worse, they make Now there's something I've never heard before. :) KH>1) You can't make new writings from old ones. A good example was when Coka KH>Cola took a Chinese(?) phrasebook and attempted to contrsuct a slogan- KH>something like "enjoy coke and smile" or some such. At any rate, the result KH>was "Bite the red oyster" or something similar. ;) Bite the red tadpole, I believe. ;) Again, I'm unaware of them changing the wording around... And given how dangerous they considered the system to be, I can't imagine them doing so... You refer perhaps to their making the pronunciation more like their version of Hebrew? Hell... From all we can tell, Dee and Kelley pronounced it like it was English, which would certainly grate on the vocal chords after awhile. (Besides the fact that Edlprnaa sounds simply ludicrous in English.) But, not sure what you meant by "new recitations". KH>2) My studies have shown that what we normally call the "Angelic Language" KH>really isn't. Remember Dee and Kelley recieved two huge Tablets with KH>something- presumably writings in Angelic- inscribed upon them. Then, the KH>Angels made new words from those tablets to make the Calls: pointing to a KH>letter here, and a letter there. Basically, the Calls are derived FROM KH>Angelic, and I feel they are word-sigils of a sort based upon the two larger KH>Tablets (though we can't comprehend the pattern). Therefore, taking the wor KH>from the Calls to make new recitations would be basically useless- or KH>dangerous. If you make a table of the English language, and spell out every word from this post by pointing out each letter, one at a time, on the table, you will derive therefrom portions of the English language...The table is not the language... And so far as I am aware, the Calls and their English translation are the only way we have any idea what any portion of the Language means. KH>As another example, I find the pyramid squares to be basically useless. And KH>have so far found no use for the Egyptian God-Forms (since they depend on th KH>pyramid squares). I'm not a big fan of the squares, either, but they are, as with so much the GD and Crowley did, are wonderful for building a system of correspondences... Helps with building up the temple, and such. Also related it to their own work, Egyptian Godforms already being in use by their adepts, they could use what they knew in workings related to the system. KH>But- be that as it may- the system still seemed to work for the GD. And eve KH>that is telling about the Enochian System... Intent is everything..Perhaps with this system more than with any other... KH>I can tell you all sorts of things that are wrong. First- they are arm-chai KH>magickians who have never tried the first spell. The "rituals" they give ar If you've got proof of that, other than that inherent in portions of their books, I'd love to hear it. I've been trying to get someone to give me facts on this subject for years now. KH>half-assed and potentially dangerous. They also make up things and include KH>them in their work with no good cause- such as the "translations" they give I've seen very little in their books that could be classed as dangerous, per se, provided one actually follows the instructions laid out in their books... Although I'd certainly hate for a careless beginner to stumble on their books before, say, Modern Magick, or some such. KH>all the Angel's Names. Not to mention that they treat Enochian like it's a KH>little cookie-cutter system- which it hardly is. I was unaware that their translations were a creation of their own... But, perhaps, this was something revealed to them during actual workings? Pat Zalewski finds "lost letters of the Enochian Alphabet" (allow me to smirk), and ol' Josh Norton (shoulda voted for him instead of Clinton) has revelations that the Abyss, per se, no longer exists... Things must move forward or they stagnate. I'm not really trying to defend the Schuellers... All I've ever used their works for is sourcebook. "Enochian Evocation" is an amusing but mostly useless book...And I haven't gotten around to acquiring True And Faithful And Exceedlingly Wordy Relation, yet... I did notice that their apparent version of Crowley's Enochian gematria differs from what I can find of the values attributed to the letters by him... Maybe I just haven't looked everywhere, but it looks like they might have fudged for some reason. I'm just wanting to know hard facts about what's so horrible about their works. I don't give a damn about them personally, and the communication I've had with them was useless to me... But problems with their books I am very interested in... * SLMR 2.1a * Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Mephisto Area: MagickNet To: KHEPHERA 8 Nov 96 00:57:00 Subject: Book Of Enoch UpdReq KH>But- in pure worship, the only results you wish to yield are pleasing the Go KH>It is debatable whether it matters in purely Magickal Operations- but in KH>worship I think it's very important. Look what happens to Relgions who KH>continue the worship even once they stop believing in the Deity... There is that. :) * SLMR 2.1a * hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Mephisto Area: MagickNet To: KHEPHERA 8 Nov 96 01:00:00 Subject: Book Of Enoch UpdReq KH>Actually, I feel that the Angelic Words do not have a pronunciation at all. KH>have heard the theory that Angelic is a Language for Beings without physical KH>bodies- at which point physical pronunciation becomes irrelevant. It also And, of course, having vocal chords, and being a language-bound creature, we tend to have to have a pronunciation for the words in order to use the words, for the most part... It's probably something more visual/energetic than oral, on its "proper plane" (Terrence McKenna's babblings about language come to mind), but still - we have to have SOME way to pronounce it :) KH>seems to be a fact that people get results with the Magick no matter how the KH>pronounce the words- which supports the theory that pronunciation means litt And then there are the hopelessly idiotic Crowley detractors who like to say he "failed" somehow by mispronouncing various words in his Enochian work. I find the idea ludicrous, but I suppose there are Purists out there. * SLMR 2.1a * If this were an actual tagline, it would be funny. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Mephisto Area: MagickNet To: CHRIS ROEDOCKER 8 Nov 96 01:03:00 Subject: Magic UpdReq CR>I thought that was the reson the it is spelled Magick. I know so little I CR>Don't know where to start. I guess I want to know what it takes to do a CR>spell. I know the star-thing that the Jews use has something to do with If you want to get into it that far, Magick (and I believe Aleister Crowley started that spelling for widespread usage), was done to seperate stage magic (rabbits and hats and illusions galore) from occult related Magick, spiritual attainment, control of one's environment, etc.. Tying that in to the "Jewish Star", Star of David, Hexagram, point is the six points to a hexagram, which tends to symbolize the union of God and Man, and the six letters of Magick, which, for Crowley, had the primary purpose of Uniting God and Man. * SLMR 2.1a * Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Mephisto Area: MagickNet To: CHRIS ROEDOCKER 8 Nov 96 01:04:00 Subject: Magic UpdReq CR>MM>CR>spell magic magick? Whats the diffrence? CR>MM> Precisely one "k". CR>Very Funny. Very accurate, too. ;) * SLMR 2.1a * Unable to locate Coffee -- Operator Halted! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Mephisto Area: MagickNet To: THE IDIOT SAVANT 8 Nov 96 01:23:00 Subject: The emmanations UpdReq TIS>There appears to be a contradiction in the Qabalah, and I wondered if anyon TIS>could resolve it for me. Most apparent contradictions in Qabalah are contradictions in understanding of what the attributions mean. TIS>1)First there was the spirit of god, and from it came the breath (air) and TIS>from the breath came the rain (water), and from the water sprang fire, and TIS>the meeting of all, earth was formed. I could convolute this with elemental attributions for the Tetragrammaton, the elemental attributions for the different "worlds" of the Tree of Life, etc.. You're talking about, basically, a fable explaining the order of manifestation of elements... Also deriving from the Sepher Yetzirah...Which is quite ancient and, in places, has very little to do with Western Ceremonial Magick with Qabalistic Leanings... We do things quite differently than the original Jewish mystics. TIS>2)The three prime emanations are attributed to the sephiroth Kether TIS>(air/aleph), Chokmar (fire/shin) and Binah (water/mem). The order of TIS>emanation of the sephiroth is Kether, Chokmar, Binah. Continuing on down the tree, you find all the Sephiroht attributed to one element or another...Not following any particularly apparent order...Based mainly on quality, not orders of manifestation. TIS>How come one of these gives the order as air, water, fire, while the other TIS>gives air, fire, water? I believe Tetragrammaton (YHVH) yields Fire, Water, Air, Earth. Could be wrong. If you look at a Pentagram, with each of the elements marked out on it...And doodle an Invoking Fire pentagram, you go through - Spirit, Fire, Air, Water, Earth... (The order I personally use)... TIS>Any help in solving this puzzle would be much appreciated. I realize I've only thrown more wood on the fire... But the point is - it all depends on who's talking, what their subject is, and who they're speaking to... I don't believe the order of elemental emanations is particularly important to most people, and is mainly a matter of convenience. Sepher Yetzirah, the book of Genesis, it all amounts to the same thing - It probably meant a great deal thousands of years ago, but is somewhat primitive, now. Sheesh but this is incoherent. To slap myself back on topic - Don't confuse the "Order of Emanations" with the elemental attributions for the Sephiroht. They refer to different things, even if they were to be in order. Simply put - Yes, the first three Sephira give you a certain order... But what about the other 7? ... Did air emanate from fire from water from earth from air? ... You're looking at two seperate parts of the system. :) God, I coulda just said that earlier. I'll shut up now. It's late. * SLMR 2.1a * Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Mephisto Area: MagickNet To: MAGICK 8 Nov 96 01:08:00 Subject: The Liber Kaos UpdReq MA>Hello. I was wondering if any of you owned or had read a copy of _Liber_Kao MA>by Peter Carroll. A friend of mine has recently recommended the work to me. Yep and Yep. MA>was talking about a circle of 9 spheres connected to this book. Quite frank Didn't notice it in the book... 8 "spheres" or "colors" of magick is a theory therein... Perhaps I overlooked that part, or perhaps your friend was making a Chaosphere out of Spheres, which would be interesting to look at, buuuuut... MA>I have long been interested in magick theory in any form, even if it isn't MA>that I practice myself. Good example would be my friendships with a few MA>followers of the Left Hand Path even though I most definitely do not follow MA>myself. Carroll's works were, for me, simply mindtwisting. Very few works have ever shook my foundations quite like his did. I'm not overly aware of why they had such an effect, but. I can't seem to maintain friendships with the ol' Brothers of the Left Hand, but that concept has little meaning anymore, since no one who uses it tends to mean the same thing as anyone else who uses it. :) * SLMR 2.1a * hAS ANYONE SEEN MY cAPSLOCK KEY? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Khephera Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 9 Nov 96 07:08:34 Subject: Book Of Enoch UpdReq On Nov 03 12:28 96, Josh Norton of 93:9400/0 wrote: Me>> A shame they didn't leave a blunt statement of Me>> pronunciation... The idea given (I think in the Enochian JN> There are some indicators of pronunciation in the original records. If you JN> search around the Web, you can find a copy of Christeos Pir's guide, which JN> compiles everything said by the angels about the subject. Now THIS I'd really love to see. If you (or anyone) gets a beat on a source for this, let me know please! :) JN>>The implication of that one paragraph is that the magician is expected to JN>>learn their use by a sort of "bootstrap" method. He is supposed to invoke JN>>all the angels of the Tablets over a period of fifteen days, and the JN>>angels themselves would thereafter show him how to go on to more specific JN>>uses. Me>> Ever given it a shot? :) JN> That's more or less what I did, though I didn't realize it at the time. JN> And yes, it did work -- superbly. Probably would have worked even better if JN> I had done so with intent. Now, I get the impression that the main Ritual is 15 days long (19 if you add the first four days of prayers), but that you only Summon one particular group of Angels with each shot... (as there are at least 32 different prayers- as per Geoffrey James- for all the WatchTower Angels). Or, where these 32 prayers divided up over the 15 days of conjuration? Hmmmmm.....that might be an interesting concept I hadn't considered before... JN> Personally, I don't regard the Aethyrs as having anything like the JN> importance that people have ascribed to them since Crowley. It's clear from JN> the language of the 19th Call that it was intended for invoking the 91 JN> Parts of _Liber Scientiae_, not the Aethyrs as such. The Aethyrs are really JN> not much more than containers for the Parts. Or if you prefer, they are the JN> magickal "continents" upon which the Parts exist as magickal "nations". Meaning that Call 19 is used to Invoke/Summon what I would call the "Governers" (I remember us clearing up our difference in terminology on that point)- rather than for entering the Aethyrs. This makes sense. I've always been uncomfortable with the modern interpretation of the Aethyrs as being some kind of planes of Ascention. Expecially since they are all specifically said to be of the world of Assaiah... Blessed Be, may Yahweh and His Asherah guide and keep thee, Ar ReX Em SeXem Eref Neter Au-a Rx Khephera 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ghost Area: MagickNet To: The Idiot Savant 7 Nov 96 00:18:26 Subject: The emmanations UpdReq ,', > There appears to be a contradiction in the Qabalah, and I wondered if > anyone could resolve it for me. to me it seems to be two different systems: the first is the way of the tattva: akasha, vayu (va, sanscrit: means something like wind), tejas, apas, prithivi. - ups; here fire and water are exchanged.... theory crashed. sorry. but probably it helps.(?!) the second - I've never heard of this attributions before, but they sound somehow right: chockmah as the great energy transmitter and binah as the bitter salt sea (ama/ aima). with kether I have no idea.... there is a contradiction about binah: some attribute neptune to it (like the above could explain) and some saturn (which comes from the form giving aspect). I wonder which way people use. [I remember one ritual where the group wasn't the same opinion even during the ritual, fatal ignorance of the different views. it courses some problems.... ] > Any help in solving this puzzle would be much appreciated. now you've got a third way.... sorry for bringing up more confusion. mMm 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Morpheus Shapiro Area: MagickNet To: Rain 8 Nov 96 07:10:02 Subject: A small essay.... UpdReq I think all our elders have somnething to add to our lives. It will be the judgement of their own actions whioch will come upon a society that infantalizes both their children, and their old ones. The past and future has been sold for the allmighty buck. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Morpheus Shapiro Area: MagickNet To: Rain 8 Nov 96 07:18:02 Subject: Flying Teacups UpdReq RR> MS> Why bother? If you had the choice of anything U wanted in the world, RR> MS> you're going to make a coffee cup float in the air? RR> RR> Old Zen story: RR> RR> A monk who has devoted himself to meditation for years RR> without RR> anything dramatic happening runs in great glee to his RR> _roshi_, RR> shouting. "Master! Master! I was meditating today and I RR> floated RR> off the ground! I truly levitated...there are witnesses!!" RR> RR> Calmly, the master replies: "Oh, that's all right. Keep up RR> your RR> meditation and it will stop." There is a famous tract written by St Teresa, who at the time was the head of a nunnery-an Abbess? REgardless of her title, she wrote about nuns having orgasms during prayers from religious ferver. Her advice was to keep praying and ignore the sexual release. I would think that after reading that you would find everybody praying up a storm! aaaaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaa! Thankyou Jesus! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Khephera Area: MagickNet To: Mephisto 10 Nov 96 08:08:46 Subject: Book Of Enoch UpdReq On Nov 08 00:55 96, Mephisto of 93:9176/0 wrote: KH>>I don't know myself. At this point I feel they diluted it somewhat. For M> Of course. I doubt there were many people in the GD proper that M> could handle the intricacies of Dee's original system, as it M> were... If Crowley's perceptions of the original group are to M> be believed, anyway. Yeah. But, in that case, it IS a big If. ;) KH>>instance, the Calls were meant to be used all together- all at once. They KH>>aren't supposed to be used individually. Also, and this is worse, they KH>>make M> Now there's something I've never heard before. :) The Dee papers actually present a 19-day ritual in which you are to use all the Calls, and the Summonings. It would seem to indicate that it's a one-shot deal, and the Angels thus Summoned by this big Ceremony tell you where to go from there. In fact, now that I think about it, it almost seems to parallel the Abramelin System- which is also a one-shot ritual that gets you into contact with Higher Powers who tell you where to go from there. And, also like Enochian Magick, it's heralded as a VERY dangerous system. KH>>1) You can't make new writings from old ones. A good example was when Coka KH>>Cola took a Chinese(?) phrasebook and attempted to contrsuct a slogan- KH>>something like "enjoy coke and smile" or some such. At any rate, the KH>>result was "Bite the red oyster" or something similar. ;) M> Bite the red tadpole, I believe. ;) THAT was it. Thanks. :) M> Again, I'm unaware of them changing the wording around... And Actually, I was refering to those like Crowley, who would translate other writings (like the Goetic Summonings) into Enochian- using the Calls as some kind of dictionary... M> given how dangerous they considered the system to be, I can't M> imagine them doing so... You refer perhaps to their making the M> pronunciation more like their version of Hebrew? No. Pronunciation is the only thing I don't fault them for, as I believe that the Angelic Language isn't a spoken language (since Angels don't "speak" as we do)- and therefore we can put whatever pronunciation to it we want. It's the reading of the words that counts. But, no, I wasn't meaning that they re-worded the Calls themselves. M> Hell... From all we can tell, Dee and Kelley pronounced it like M> it was English, which would certainly grate on the vocal chords M> after awhile. (Besides the fact that Edlprnaa sounds simply M> ludicrous in English.) ;) M> But, not sure what you meant by "new recitations". See above about Crowley's use of Enochian in Goetic Summonings. I've seen many other do much the same thing- writing or finding other prayers or recitations, and "translating" them into Enochian via the Calls. I think this is dangerous. KH>>2) My studies have shown that what we normally call the "Angelic Language" KH>>really isn't. Remember Dee and Kelley recieved two huge Tablets with KH>>something- presumably writings in Angelic- inscribed upon them. Then, the KH>>Angels made new words from those tablets to make the Calls: pointing to a KH>>letter here, and a letter there. Basically, the Calls are derived FROM KH>>Angelic, and I feel they are word-sigils of a sort based upon the two KH>>larger Tablets (though we can't comprehend the pattern). Therefore, taking KH>>the wor from the Calls to make new recitations would be basically useless- KH>>or dangerous. M> If you make a table of the English language, and spell out every M> word from this post by pointing out each letter, one at a time, M> on the table, you will derive therefrom portions of the English M> language...The table is not the language... And so far as I am M> aware, the Calls and their English translation are the only way M> we have any idea what any portion of the Language means. I don't know if I agree or not. Of course, I could take this post, and find every letter I need to make any words I need. For instance, just from the last sentence, I could take the "c" from "course", the "o" from "could", the "l" from "letter", and the "d" from "need"- and I'd get "cold". I therfore took various letters and made another word. However, I don't feel that this is what the Angels were doing. I think they took two Tablets that were written in Angelic, and made whole new words with them. Words that were not True Angelic, but were "notaricons" of a sort. As if I had, above, used the first letters of each word of the sentence to make the word "Ocicttpafelintmawin". This new word is a "sigil" of the entire sentence, and embodies what that sentence means. Only, the Angels were not using any form of Notaricon that we have seen before. They have even attempted to use computers to find a pattern with no luck... Now, the reason I don't feel that the Calls are True Angelic is because what little I have seen of the two large Tablets looks much different from the words in the Calls. Also, from what I've seen of the Diaries- it seems that most of the really intense manifestations, etc, such happened while they were working with the two big Tablets, and not with the Calls. Yet, the Calls are uniform enough to make sense when compaired to each other- which proves that there IS a pattern to how the Angels derived those words. KH>>As another example, I find the pyramid squares to be basically useless. KH>>And have so far found no use for the Egyptian God-Forms (since they depend KH>>on th pyramid squares). M> I'm not a big fan of the squares, either, but they are, as with M> so much the GD and Crowley did, are wonderful for building a M> system of correspondences... Helps with building up the temple, M> and such. Yeah. This all comes from the GD's use of the Tablets. I am uncertain that the Tabets were ever supposed to be anything more than a couple of reference-tables for deriving Names. Where-as just about everyone since Dee has attempted to use them as Magikal Models of the Universe. I think they can be to a limited degree- but are mainly just Tables like any other... (unlike, say, the Tree of Life). M> Also related it to their own work, Egyptian Godforms already M> being in use by their adepts, they could use what they knew in M> workings related to the system. Oh, of course. ;) You should see my Opening By WatchTower (a GD Ceremony that I *DO* like and make much use of). I don't use the Zorastrian phrases- "So therefore first...etc". I use verses from the Babylonian Enuma Elish. ;) KH>>But- be that as it may- the system still seemed to work for the GD. And KH>>even that is telling about the Enochian System... M> Intent is everything..Perhaps with this system more than with M> any other... That seems to be the case. As Josh said- all we have of the Enochian system is some information on contacting the Angels, and then THEY tell you where to go from there. So, that could explain why everyone has their own ideas. And, IMO, it's a wonderful thing that it's like that. I just wish people would wake up and realise that most other systems- like the Qabalah- are that way as well. KH>>I can tell you all sorts of things that are wrong. First- they are KH>>arm-chai magickians who have never tried the first spell. The "rituals" KH>>they give ar M> If you've got proof of that, other than that inherent in M> portions of their books, I'd love to hear it. I've been trying M> to get someone to give me facts on this subject for years now. Tangible proof, no. However, when one looks at their work, it is obvious that their Ceremonies would never work with any effectivness. They are full of holes big enough to drive mach-trucks through (for example, no banishings- which is no big deal because there are no INVOCATIONS to begin with!). They seem to think that all you have to do is draw a pentagram in the air and sing a few Names, and the Angels will come rushing to you. Why, they even give the Calls (in the "Enochian Workbook") in English and never even MENTION that they are not actually written in English to begin with! Actually, Josh has also answered your question on this, and he does it much better than I. All I can say is that, once you have experience, the "arm-chair" types get easier to spot. KH>>half-assed and potentially dangerous. They also make up things and include KH>>them in their work with no good cause- such as the "translations" they give M> I've seen very little in their books that could be classed as M> dangerous, per se, provided one actually follows the M> instructions laid out in their books... I disagree. Mainly because they take a "fluffy" attitude toward Enochian, and that is dangerous in and of itself. M> Although I'd certainly M> hate for a careless beginner to stumble on their books before, M> say, Modern Magick, or some such. Exactly! And yet they publish "The Enochian Workbook" for beginners...:( KH>>all the Angel's Names. Not to mention that they treat Enochian like it's a KH>>little cookie-cutter system- which it hardly is. M> I was unaware that their translations were a creation of their M> own... But, perhaps, this was something revealed to them during M> actual workings? Sorry, I don't buy that one. ;) M> Pat Zalewski finds "lost letters of the M> Enochian Alphabet" (allow me to smirk), and ol' Josh Norton I respect Mr. Zalewski- but even I smirk at that one. :) M> (shoulda voted for him instead of Clinton) has revelations that M> the Abyss, per se, no longer exists... Things must move forward M> or they stagnate. Again, I respect Josh as well. But he is well aware that he an I differ on that point. ;) M> I'm not really trying to defend the Schuellers... All I've ever M> used their works for is sourcebook. "Enochian Evocation" is an M> amusing but mostly useless book...And I haven't gotten around to M> acquiring True And Faithful And Exceedlingly Wordy Relation, M> yet... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Khephera Area: MagickNet To: Mephisto 10 Nov 96 08:08:46 Subject: 2 Book Of Enoch UpdReq Whoah! You mean "Enochian Evocation"- now known as "The Enochian Magick of Dr. John Dee"- by James? That is a most invaluable source, in my opinion. Strange how you've found no use for that, yet use for the Schuler's work. (All right guys! We've got a live one here!). :):):) Just-kidding. Why did you find James' book useless? As for the "...Relation..."- I have yet to see that one myself, but wish to hell I did have it! M> I did notice that their apparent version of Crowley's Enochian M> gematria differs from what I can find of the values attributed M> to the letters by him... Maybe I just haven't looked M> everywhere, but it looks like they might have fudged for some M> reason. I know the reason....as above stated. ;) M> I'm just wanting to know hard facts about what's so horrible M> about their works. I don't give a damn about them personally, M> and the communication I've had with them was useless to me... Oh? Please elaborate...if you wish... M> But problems with their books I am very interested in... Well, I listed a few above- we can start there. ;) Blessed Be, may Yahweh and His Asherah guide and keep thee, Ar ReX Em SeXem Eref Neter Au-a Rx Khephera 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Khephera Area: MagickNet To: Mephisto 10 Nov 96 08:47:32 Subject: Book Of Enoch UpdReq On Nov 08 01:00 96, Mephisto of 93:9176/0 wrote: KH>>Actually, I feel that the Angelic Words do not have a pronunciation at all. KH>>have heard the theory that Angelic is a Language for Beings without KH>>physical bodies- at which point physical pronunciation becomes irrelevant. KH>>It also M> And, of course, having vocal chords, and being a language-bound M> creature, we tend to have to have a pronunciation for the words M> in order to use the words, for the most part... Exactly. We need to read the words aloud to make the best use of them. But exactly what pronunciation we use for them doesn't seem to matter. However, if we were naturally Telepathic Beings, then we could probably move mountains with the Calls as they are! :) Which might explain why so many people have so much success working Astrally with the Enochian System (a la Ben Rowe). M> It's probably something more visual/energetic than oral, on its M> "proper plane" (Terrence McKenna's babblings about language come M> to mind), but still - we have to have SOME way to pronounce it M> :) You've hit the nail on the head. That's also why I stress the idea that the words of the Calls are actually notaricon-like "sigils". They are actually more along the lines of pictures than words. And that makes perfect sense- since the mind thinks in pictures and not words. It might be that Enochian is so powerful because it has combined pictures and words. Rather than making words into pictures, it has made pictures into words. That might be why the Qabalah was also so successful with it's use of Notaricons. KH>>seems to be a fact that people get results with the Magick no matter how KH>>the pronounce the words- which supports the theory that pronunciation means KH>>litt M> And then there are the hopelessly idiotic Crowley detractors who M> like to say he "failed" somehow by mispronouncing various words M> in his Enochian work. I find the idea ludicrous, but I suppose M> there are Purists out there. Always. As for those who think that's why he screwd up- I wonder why they don't think that his invocation of Choronzon might have had something to do with him going looney.... Blessed Be, may Yahweh and His Asherah guide and keep thee, Ar ReX Em SeXem Eref Neter Au-a Rx Khephera 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Khephera Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 10 Nov 96 08:53:24 Subject: Book Of Enoch UpdReq On Nov 08 13:09 96, Josh Norton of 93:9400/0 wrote: JN> -=> Quoting Khephera to Mephisto <=- JN> I've just spent a couple of weeks carefully re-reading Dee's _Liber JN> Mysteriorum Quinti_ and _A True and Faithful Relation_, while working JN> up an Enochian magick FAQ for the internet. A few comments, from that JN> freshened perspective: Cool. I'd also LOVE To see that FAQ. Kh>> I don't know myself. At this point I feel they diluted it somewhat. Kh>> For instance, the Calls were meant to be used all together- all Kh>> at once. They aren't supposed to be used individually. JN> I'm afraid there is _no_ justification for this in the record. The one JN> "official" instruction on the enochian magick doesn't mention the Calls JN> at all. What it says is that the magician is supposed to call all the JN> _angels_ in all of the four tablets, and that they would take it from JN> there. JN> Dee's grimoire, with its petitions to each different rank of angels, was JN> intended for precisely this purpose. Granted. However, from what I've studied (and keep in mind I conceed that you're better aquainted with the Diaries than I, so I'll take no offense to corrections) it does not seem that any indication was given that the Calls should be used seperate- much less to open up "parts" of the WatchTowers. In fact, the Calls pretty much tell a connected tale, and to use them out of order makes little sense to me... JN> As things stand, any person's ideas about the use of the Calls must be JN> regarded, at best, as coming from his own experience of their use. At JN> worst, as being a pure fabrication. No one can claim to be using them JN> according to the "original" method, because there wasn't any method JN> specified. Well, with that I totally agree with you. I am simply going on the idea that no indication was given to use the Calls in a fragmented fashion. They seem to be a thing unto themselves- as one whole. I personally wouldn't be (and havn't been) comfortable with using them in the GD style. JN> Personally, using all the Calls at once seems like extreme overkill. Hmmmmmm..... on this I'll take a rain-check, since I have not done it yet. Kh>> Also, and this is worse, they make new recitations out of the Calls. Kh>> There are two real good reasons why this is a bad idea. JN> As a general thing, I agree with this. We don't know enough about JN> the grammar, declensions, etc. of Angelic, so messing around with JN> it probably won't give good results. Right. Kh>> 1) You can't make new writings from old ones. A good example was when Kh>> Coka Cola took a Chinese(?) phrasebook and attempted to contrsuct a Kh>> slogan- something like "enjoy coke and smile" or some such. At any rate, Kh>> the result was "Bite the red oyster" or something similar. ;) JN> Heh. The original tale was that is was Pepsi, and their old slogan JN> "Come alive! You're in the Pepsi generation." translated into JN> "Pepsi brings your ancestors back from their graves." HA! I've heard this one, too. Thought it was an unrelated incident. ;) Kh>> 2) My studies have shown that what we normally call the "Angelic Language" Kh>> really isn't. Remember Dee and Kelley recieved two huge Tablets with Kh>> something- presumably writings in Angelic- inscribed upon them. Then, the Kh>> Angels made new words from those tablets to make the Calls: pointing to a Kh>> letter here, and a letter there. Basically, the Calls are derived FROM Kh>> Angelic, and I feel they are word-sigils of a sort based upon the two Kh>> larger Tablets (though we can't comprehend the pattern). Therefore, Kh>> taking the words from the Calls to make new recitations would be basically Kh>> useless- or dangerous. JN> The Calls are definitely a language, as several linguists have testified. JN> There is a consist association of words with meanings, and a consistent JN> (though incompletely understood) grammar. With this I agree. However, I honestly feel (and of course I don't claim this comes from Dee or anything) that the "language" of the Calls is something other than "True" Angelic. As I've said in other posts, I think they are of the nature of notaricons- meant to embody certain Powers described(?) on the two larger Tablets. I also note that, in the Calls, there are many cases of one word being spelled in various ways. I feel this is for a reason- as the word being used in different places needs to partake of various different Powers or Attributes or whatever. This further implies that the words are notaricon-like "Sigils" rather than a real language. The two large Tablets- for all we know- are a true and consistant language. Honestly, I wish we had the first clue as to what the two large Tablets say. Do we even have copies of them as they are in the Angelic language? JN> The tables you mention came from Liber Logaeth, the "Book of Speech JN> from God". This book supposedly contains the words that God used to JN> create all of existence. The contents of the book are _not_ a language in JN> the sense that humans understand the word. This makes sense to me, and is pretty much what my point has been. Those Tablets are the real Angelic Language used in the Heavens, and originally used by Adam (who Named everything in existance- which boils down to saying he had his part in Creating it all). Then, it was from this the Calls were derived in some kind of strange way... JN> The first of the Logaeth tables contains words in what might be a JN> language, but isn't the same language as the Calls. Right! JN> The second Logaeth table contains a few lines of words, and the remaining JN> lines have individual syllables with no indication how they fit together -- JN> if they do -- to make words. The remaining Logaeth tables, including JN> those used to produce the Calls, contain nothing but individual letters JN> and numbers, again with no indication of how they might be gathered JN> into words. Ah... does the "True Relation" have copies of these? And, if yes or no, are there other sources for them? JN> Even if these tables are in a different language, I don't see that JN> this being so invalidates the Calls as examples of another language. Oh no! Don't get me wrong on that point- the Calls are a language. I just don't feel that the Calls and the Angelic Language spoken of to Dee by the Angels are the same thing- even though modern authors treat it as such. JN> As a parallel, it would be easy enough for a Spanish-speaking person JN> to spell out Spanish words by pointing to letters in an English text. JN> Why can't angels spell out angelic words by pointing to a text in JN> "God-ish"? This is what Mephisto said as well, basically. Although, I have a theory (based on a huntch that just sits real well with me for some reason) that there was a very specific pattern to it (like notaricons)- just one we can't grasp. Each word partaking of certain words of the big Tablets and the Powers of Creation they contain. JN> I think that the means used to present the Calls was partly a matter JN> of convenience, and partly a means of confirming that the Calls were JN> a genuine divine "transmission". JN> Convenient, because they already had hardcopy versions of the tables, JN> and Kelly had already been "sanctified" so that he could view the JN> astral versions. This saved time in a situation where there was a definite JN> time constraint. Hmmmmmm....a possibility. But my world-view just doesn't hold a picture of Angelic Beings being quite so random... :) In that view, I would ask why the Angels didn't just say "write these words", and start saying the letters (if not just reciting the Calls for Dee to write them down). That would have been easier and faster than finding the right letters on the Tablets and pointing to them... JN> Throughout the work, the angels were extremely careful to present JN> information in ways that would demonstrate that they were real beings, and JN> not figments of the magicians' imaginations. Their usual method was to show JN> that they were working from knowledge that was not in the possession of the JN> magicians. This seems to come through even today- as we find the STRONG Gnostic Current within the system that Dee appears(?) to have been unaware of... JN> As an example, the Sigil of Ameth contains numerous god-names and angelic JN> names. All of these names are derived from two familiar sets of angelic JN> names, by a complex process of extraction. But the angels gave Dee and JN> Kelly the derived names first, and only _afterwards_ did they give them the JN> familiar sets and demonstrate the methods by which the names were produced. JN> This same method was used in the presentation of the Lamen, Holy Table, and JN> Heptarchic ministers of the hours. In the last of these cases, the angels JN> used a different method for each of seven sets of ministers. Not to mention the fact that the Names of the Governers of the Aethyrs were given, and THEN the Tablets of the WatchTowers were given- and Dee never did seem to figure out that they were all one and the same... JN> In the strictly "Enochian" part of the work, you see the same concern with JN> confirmation. The order in which the various parts of the system were given JN> was such that it demonstrated that the angels had secret knowledge. E.g., JN> the names of the 91 "Parts of the Earth" in _Liber Scientiae_ were given JN> _before_ the Elemental tablets from which the names were derived. Ha! I was one step ahead of you! Or vise-versa I guess. ;) JN> In the case of the Calls, confirmation came from the fact that Dee had no JN> idea what letter the angels were pointing to. Kelly would give him just the JN> row and column position of the letter, and Dee would look it up in his JN> copy of the table. Ah, I see what you're saying now. But, like I said, this theory of mine really screams in my head. So, I think I'll explore it deeper. But, of course, I do need to get copies of those big Tables first. Damn the expense of "...Relation..." Oh, by the way, nice to see you back again. It's been a while...;) Blessed Be, may Yahweh and His Asherah guide and keep thee, Ar ReX Em SeXem Eref Neter Au-a Rx Khephera 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718