From: Paul Hume Area: MagickNet To: The Idiot Savant 6 Nov 96 20:14:52 Subject: The emmanations UpdReq Savant - It is arguable whether Kether is Air, though the Middle Pillar in Hermetic parlance is generally attributed to Air, I agree. More to the point, in both views, the primal duality of manifestation, in the forms of Fire and Water, sprang from the action of the Divine. That the metaphor of the ruach elohim (remembering that ruach is spirit as well as air/breath) is used in the first example - presumably a discussion of Genesis? - does not make that breath Air, anymore than Kether is Air in the same sense as either Tiphareth or Yesod. Actually, the two main progressions in the West are: via alchemy: Fire and Water (complements) combine to form Air (steam) and Earth (ashes). via Hindu mysticism (the borrowed model of the Tattvas): From Akasha is condensed Vayu (Air) and further condensed one gets Tejas (Fire), then Apas (Water), and finally Prithivi (Earth). The elemntal progression is seen as incrasingly dense manifestations of Akasha - a similar concept to the incremental increase in density as the mezla descends the Tree through the sephiroth. Paul 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: The Guild Master Area: MagickNet To: Pan 7 Nov 96 07:28:22 Subject: Re: karma UpdReq -=> Raving like a madman, Pan screamed to All <=- Greetings Pan. Saw this and decided to write. (*grin*) Pa> i was wondering what the implicatations of this act might Pa> be, and if i or someone else were to cast some real nasty Pa> spell toward them/him Pa> would i be justified in that.. or would it be, absolutely wrong.. Pa> let me know, i need some feedback.. I decided to move this part to get you thinking a bit. It would depend on alot of stuff as to whether it would be justified. Pa> i have this friend of mine who was playing in a bar, when Pa> he walked outside he got hit.. HARD.. in the head. he had a What was he doing in the bar? What did he say? Who did he hang around with? What are the specifics of everything that happened? This all plays a role with this. Pa> few hours of surgury and is still in intensive care and Pa> unconcious. the person who did this to him, dosen't know Pa> him or anything, is only 16 yrs. old and , i guess, a Pa> member of some gang.. they just meet and both had bad Sorry about your friend. As a fellow Head injure case, He has my support. As to the kid, was he with friends? Was there a gang present? What was the contact they had? (did the kid just walk up and smile, Say "HI. Wassup?" and proceed to strike him in the head with a brick and then just walk on as if nothing happened just for grins and giggles?) (I highly doubt it.) There was a tension moment where there was a conflict most likely. Try to point that time out. Pa> things happen to them.. my friend is close to coma and the Pa> perpetrator is , i hope, behind bars.. I hope so as well. Pa> i was wondering what the implicatations of this act might Pa> be, and if i or someone else were to cast some real nasty Pa> spell toward them/him Pa> would i be justified in that.. or would it be, absolutely wrong.. Pa> let me know, i need some feedback.. Well, Get the above facts. If the conflict was started by what your friend said or did at a previous time, then I would say that your spell would be unfair to the lad. If the lad started it out, then It would be proper. Does your friend have any gang friends he hangs out with? That could also be a connection. Not neccessarally a FAIR connection, but one that may be there. If the lad started it, or did it on a dare or something, then I say if you can cause him problems, then go for it. (Be sure not to kill, however. There are worse things than death. He can't live through them if he is dead.) Just be ready for the backlash of anything you do, as this will almost certainly cause his friends to ask the same questions you are asking and think of the same things you are. Final note and summary of my opinion : If he (your friend) started it, then drop the thing, as the kid was retaliating. Leave it to them to settle as it is their personal affair. If the kid started it, throw him to the wolves. The Guild Master ttyl ... Oxymoron? I agree, he is both an Ox and a Moron! - Mage about Fighter ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Khephera 8 Nov 96 13:09:00 Subject: Book Of Enoch UpdReq -=> Quoting Khephera to Mephisto <=- I've just spent a couple of weeks carefully re-reading Dee's _Liber Mysteriorum Quinti_ and _A True and Faithful Relation_, while working up an Enochian magick FAQ for the internet. A few comments, from that freshened perspective: M> Well, they did a workable synthesis. And looking at it from an M> evolving-of-magick perspective, they did well. Kh> I don't know myself. At this point I feel they diluted it somewhat. Kh> For instance, the Calls were meant to be used all together- all Kh> at once. They aren't supposed to be used individually. I'm afraid there is _no_ justification for this in the record. The one "official" instruction on the enochian magick doesn't mention the Calls at all. What it says is that the magician is supposed to call all the _angels_ in all of the four tablets, and that they would take it from there. Dee's grimoire, with its petitions to each different rank of angels, was intended for precisely this purpose. As things stand, any person's ideas about the use of the Calls must be regarded, at best, as coming from his own experience of their use. At worst, as being a pure fabrication. No one can claim to be using them according to the "original" method, because there wasn't any method specified. Personally, using all the Calls at once seems like extreme overkill. Kh> Also, and this is worse, they make new recitations out of Kh> the Calls. There are two real good reasons why this is a Kh> bad idea. As a general thing, I agree with this. We don't know enough about the grammar, declensions, etc. of Angelic, so messing around with it probably won't give good results. Kh> 1) You can't make new writings from old ones. A good Kh> example was when Coka Cola took a Chinese(?) phrasebook and Kh> attempted to contrsuct a slogan- something like "enjoy coke Kh> and smile" or some such. At any rate, the result was "Bite Kh> the red oyster" or something similar. ;) Heh. The original tale was that is was Pepsi, and their old slogan "Come alive! You're in the Pepsi generation." translated into "Pepsi brings your ancestors back from their graves." Kh> 2) My studies have shown that what we normally call the "Angelic Kh> Language" really isn't. Remember Dee and Kelley recieved two huge Kh> Tablets with something- presumably writings in Angelic- Kh> inscribed upon them. Then, the Angels made new words from Kh> those tablets to make the Calls: pointing to a letter Kh> here, and a letter there. Basically, the Calls are derived Kh> FROM Angelic, and I feel they are word-sigils of a sort Kh> based upon the two larger Tablets (though we can't Kh> comprehend the pattern). Therefore, taking the words from Kh> the Calls to make new recitations would be basically Kh> useless- or dangerous. The Calls are definitely a language, as several linguists have testified. There is a consist association of words with meanings, and a consistent (though incompletely understood) grammar. The tables you mention came from Liber Logaeth, the "Book of Speech from God". This book supposedly contains the words that God used to create all of existence. The contents of the book are _not_ a language in the sense that humans understand the word. The first of the Logaeth tables contains words in what might be a language, but isn't the same language as the Calls. The second Logaeth table contains a few lines of words, and the remaining lines have individual syllables with no indication how they fit together -- if they do -- to make words. The remaining Logaeth tables, including those used to produce the Calls, contain nothing but individual letters and numbers, again with no indication of how they might be gathered into words. Even if these tables are in a different language, I don't see that this being so invalidates the Calls as examples of another language. As a parallel, it would be easy enough for a Spanish-speaking person to spell out Spanish words by pointing to letters in an English text. Why can't angels spell out angelic words by pointing to a text in "God-ish"? I think that the means used to present the Calls was partly a matter of convenience, and partly a means of confirming that the Calls were a genuine divine "transmission". Convenient, because they already had hardcopy versions of the tables, and Kelly had already been "sanctified" so that he could view the astral versions. This saved time in a situation where there was a definite time constraint. Throughout the work, the angels were extremely careful to present information in ways that would demonstrate that they were real beings, and not figments of the magicians' imaginations. Their usual method was to show that they were working from knowledge that was not in the possession of the magicians. As an example, the Sigil of Ameth contains numerous god-names and angelic names. All of these names are derived from two familiar sets of angelic names, by a complex process of extraction. But the angels gave Dee and Kelly the derived names first, and only _afterwards_ did they give them the familiar sets and demonstrate the methods by which the names were produced. This same method was used in the presentation of the Lamen, Holy Table, and Heptarchic ministers of the hours. In the last of these cases, the angels used a different method for each of seven sets of ministers. In the strictly "Enochian" part of the work, you see the same concern with confirmation. The order in which the various parts of the system were given was such that it demonstrated that the angels had secret knowledge. E.g., the names of the 91 "Parts of the Earth" in _Liber Scientiae_ were given _before_ the Elemental tablets from which the names were derived. In the case of the Calls, confirmation came from the fact that Dee had no idea what letter the angels were pointing to. Kelly would give him just the row and column position of the letter, and Dee would look it up in his copy of the table. Josh 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718