From: Paul Hume Area: MagickNet To: Pan 9 Sep 96 09:24:32 Subject: Re: Pollution UpdReq Dear Pan - 93. Yes, that ongoing future tense in stating the Law often makes me think (or worry (g)) that we are in for what the Chinese call "interesting times." Besides the social implications of trying to bring the Law into fuller action in one's own life, and the world, I have always felt that the future tense means it is an ongoing process in each of us, ever-growing and refining, never done. The issue I have with "harm none" - other than the fact that it is a central statement of Wiccan belief, and thus irrelevant to Thelema - is that modern interpretations include things like "and of course you cannot harm yourself," which is no one's call but the individuals (viz. Liber OZ), nitpicking discussions of when "hurt" is or is not "harm," etc., which are not my thing. Love includes the possibility, the certainty, of hurt/harm. You cannot get close enough to something or someone to love them without doing harm to them and yourself. Thus, love under will, since recognizing and rejoicing in the pain as well as the joy of the outreach to love is crucial. Moreover, while I am a peaceful individual myself, Thelema does not enjoin pacifism, or require that we harm none in matters of self-defense, or defense of others. Mind you, many full statements of the Wiccan Rede (not just the clause "An it harm none...") make that distinction. I mean the full charge to the Witch in the initiations, of which the sentence "An it harm none do what thou wilt" is only one part, just as "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law," is only one part of the Book of the Law. Crucial parts, both of them, but while they state the essence of the belief system, there is much more in both Thelema and Wicca than can be captured in a single sentence, even sentences as profound as these are. Since someone on another echo just asked about the Short Comment, I had better explicitly note that, of course, these are my own interpretations and that the concept of Thelema precludes me or anyone from trying to interpret the Law for anyone else. Paul 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Jade Area: MagickNet To: Pan 10 Sep 96 19:40:00 Subject: an it harm none UpdReq I am not sure I understand, but then I am hardly capable of understanding everything. I have my limits. I do respect your point of view though, and as long as you respect mine. No harm no foul. As far as the New Age and becoming like Gods. I hope it won't happen all at once. What kind of god would a mass murderer make? A deadly one I suppose. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Stardance Area: MagickNet To: Khephera 10 Sep 96 19:03:00 Subject: Re: Magick styles UpdReq **** Constellations exploded when Stardance heard **** Kh> On Aug 31 12:22 96, Stardance of 93:9301/0 wrote: Fi>> I agree. Of course, the "proper form" of the ritual can add to Fi>> it's power. The problem is not in observing form, it's when the form Fi>> takes over to the detriment of other factors more important to the Fi>> magick. S> Form as in wording of the ritual? Yes, I can agree with that. Form as in S> only certain modes of dress are deemed appropriate? No, I don't agree. What S> should it matter how one is, or isn't dressed? But some people obsess over S> this to the point other things become occluded, including the ritual itself. Kh> Actually, it's not so much the "form" of the Ceremony that is Kh> important as the content. That's where the problems come in. In Kh> order to perform certain Magicks, certain things have to be done. Kh> Now, here's the real joke. Those who wrote the Grimiores knew this Kh> fact. Thus, they often included "blinds" in their books. Someone who Kh> knows how to work Magick will be able to find them and remove or fix Kh> them. Someone who does not will be forced to follow the Ceremony word Kh> for word. The Ceremony may work, but it is very limited. Kh> Plus, one who doesn't know how Magick works is stuck with the books. Kh> If he ever finds himself without the book or needing something the Kh> book doesn't cover- he's screwed. True. But what about those who simply bypass all of that??? It might *not* work, and it shouldn't, but sometimes it WILL work, and usually with disastrous results. Content is *very* important, as well as *intent*.... what I object to, as I have previously, is the attitude that one's state of dress has ANYTHING to do with the end results being sought. Fi>> Naturally, the newbe is not in the best of positions to judge how Fi>> good a "short cut" is. S> If you will recall...I meant those who bypass just about everything we would S> consider proper and necessary....ie, warding, etc, and jump straight to the S> 'meat' of something, wanting to see results *NOW*, and not caring how they S> achieve them. Mostly with disastrous results. There is a *reason* why Kh> And this compliments my statments above. It's not about "keeping Kh> form"- it's about knowing what the hell you are doing... ;) Kh> Heh...I think I'm going to have to save this to show to some of my Kh> students. ;) Have someone feeling impatient with all the 'whys and wherefors' of things??? Put it to them this way......would you try arc welding without a protective face mask and work apron/gloves on??? Nope. Why??? That'll get em every time. Stardance ... Where we cannot invent, we may at least improve. Charles Caleb Colton 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Jade Area: MagickNet To: Pan 10 Sep 96 19:44:00 Subject: Re: Pollution UpdReq PP> i think i got what you mean. like, every time a witch ar PP> mage does magick, that energy is here whether we like it or PP> not, and it will stay here( earth/phisical plane...) until PP> id degrades or not. PP> there's an idea, qabballistic i think, in which ,like PP> ezekial's vision the mystic is running and returning, like PP> lightening across the sky.. which means the mystic goes to PP> the other worlds (oh boy, bear with the way i term this) and PP> returns, slowly clearing a way betwene the two.. which makes PP> it easier for others to travel.. PP> in this sense the pollution is that pure energy of the gods, PP> only braught into this world where it will degrade/ PP> decompose or follow and number of 'natural' laws.. this is PP> not pollution, but redemption.. PP> p PP> --- GEcho 1.10+ PP> * Origin: The Wizard's Cavern BBS (93:9806/50) Yes I think you got my point. When a spell is cast, it remains until it has completed its task or fades with the passage of time. And in the same way thought, especially strong thoughts and or feelings remain after the cause has passed. (Think of going to a place where witches were burned, I bet most of us would feel a remnant of their death pains.) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718