From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: WORED 17 Dec 94 16:10:00 Subject: RE: ASTROLOGY UpdReq -=> Quoting Wored to Joseph Max <=- Wo> Anyway, I'm actually Wo> not on any real rampage over Pete. It does seem apparent though, Wo> that he seems to be the Chaoists' choice, when it comes to quoting Wo> and for discussions on chaos in general. I've put in other posts (on Wo> Antrax) that I think alot of this is due to a lack of availability Wo> for Chaoyoates' to get ahold of alot of the other literature that is Wo> no longer in publication. Well, yes. It's incredibly hard to get ahold of Austin Spare's work, and his writings are largely allegorical anyway, and not good "quote" fodder, so to speak. Beside's Carroll, there is very little published material on Chaos Magic. Ray Sherwin's out of print. There's Alan Savage's book, but it sucks, IMNSHO. Isaac Bonewitz is relevant, but not really Chaos. There's Phil Hine's books, but their just a restatement of Carroll anyway, and Carroll writes better. Carroll's the only thamaturgist that Chaos Magic has in print, except maybe that guy from England who just published, which I haven't seen yet. _Liber Null_ is about the closest thing Chaos Magic has to _Magick In Theory And Practice_ so far; _both_ of which, it should be remembered, are really nothing more than a restating of concepts that really aren't "new". Wo> If it sounds like Pete hits a sour note Wo> with me it isn't just because of personality differences I have with Wo> him. In my past, I've belonged to other Magickal lodges and/or Wo> groups and I get kinda worried that since Pete is one of the only Wo> Chaoists' still being published that we might encounter the horrific Wo> ~Croweley is God' syndrome (with Petes' name exchanged for crowleys Wo> of course). All ya gotta do is _see_ the guy - he looks like a drummer for a heavy metal band, huh? Wo> When i look at the posts (including BBS' out of this Wo> area) his ideas and theories seem to be the only ones being Wo> discussed. I don't know about you, but the idea that in ten years or Wo> so we might have young Chayoates babbling pete the way Thelemites Wo> Babble their Crowleyian mottos' is a little alarming. If it is true (as I've heard so often) that Carroll's work is "derivative" of previous magickal systems, then why should it be surprising that concepts he wrote about crop up elsewhere? If you play the Blues, you're gonna end up sounding _something_ like John Lee Hooker... Wo> however, i do Wo> realize, this is probably very far from possible as most people I Wo> know involved in Chaos...well, it's just not in our personality to Wo> be dependent on one source (at least not for long anyway). It's changing. Compare the Chaotes you know to magicians of any other stripe and tell me that we aren't a hell of a lot less dependent on particular sources! Wo> Sorry, if it seemed the post was a little over reactive. I posted Wo> it as such. Think nothing of it. "As brothers fight ye!" as the Thelemites like to say... Wo> In reading your posts and many other people like you, you don't fall Wo> into the guru load I'm talking about at all. If I do, please shoot me. Consider it your duty. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Wored Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 18 Dec 94 02:38:00 Subject: RE: ASTROLOGY UpdReq Dear Max, Sorry, you're probably going to encounter another post or two flaming away about Pete. sigh... Sorry. If you do read the posts try to hear my real voice above the bullshit `flaming'. I was not flaming at you. I guess (if you've read those posts) I never been able to understand why Pete said and sounded the way he did when I spoke to him about our resignation. He really did sound (but he always did anyway) like a pussy eatin' idiot. He really didn't think bobs' (Corvus') outrageous (and now well known) racism mattered. He really didn't think "a little bit of racism" was something for him to concern himself over. He actually thought it was something I and my mixed race Temple should realize that racism was just `Chaos' and something we could all learn from. I disagree with a vengence! I look white but I'm not. My mother who looked like waht she was (Amerindian) is dead today because while she was dying the Doctor took care of a white woman with a rash. Nobody cared. She was only a `squaw'. SHE COULDN'T BREATHE! THEY LET HER DIE! WORSE>>>THEY KNEW SHE WAS GOING TO DIE! Now, for obvious reasons, Pete telling me a `little racism wouldn't hurt anybody' didn't set well with me. Want to know a secret... Corvus was pissed at us because we initiated a `spic'. And that's just how Corvus said it. "I can't beleive you Falcon. That boys' a spic!" He didn't like the fact that we had a JEW in are Temple and he didn't like it when he found out I wasn't white. That's the truth. Why would i have been calling all over creation, Peter, Nick Hall, the Section Head (Stephen)... I really didn't think this would just be let go by. The Section head of Australia (Stephen) was completely infuriated. Stephen said that he had a good idea during the conversations that he had with Bob(Corvus) that was true. However, as a 2nd degree and all the way in Australia, Stephen didn't know what to do. He suggested continuing doing our `resignation' thing but keep in touch with him. He didn't want good Chaoyotes' thrown to the wayside because of somethinf so stupid as Corvus' racism. Unfortunately, the damage was done. Most of my Temple were rather new to Magick. They'd seen this shit all their lives and weren't about to go through it again. I saw two men break down in tears' over the situation. I saw people taken off their chosen path by Corvus' bullshit (he said it to one young mans face that he was nothing but a beaner and know beaner was worthy to walk the Chaoist path. He screamed it at the guy actually.) So all my person crap aside, after practicing Magick for twenty two years, I take serious issue with people pulling other people off the path they wish to pursue. There is no room for any of this type of shit in Magick. Call me an `elitest' but were to good for that bullshit. i don't care what sex you are, who you fuck, or what the colour of your skin is you want to do Magick, LET'S DO MAGICK! Anyway, I'm sorry if you get to those other posts' before you read this. If I flamed, it was not directed at you. Chaofaque my friend! "LIFE IN EXPANSION KNOWS NO RESTRICTIONS!", cried the wandering Wored 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Joseph Max Area: MagickNet To: Wored 18 Dec 94 08:25:00 Subject: RE: ASTROLOGY UpdReq Wored, believe me - nothing surprises me about Corvus anymore. The shocking thing is that the IOT as an organisation continues to put up with his shit. He was the cause of my group, Temple Babel's mass resignation as well. We like to think that it had a "positive" outcome, as it sparked the creation of the AutonomatriX with a strong sense of "We've seen how to do it the _wrong_ way, now..." Have you gotten in touch with Darakan from Temple AAnaki yet? (I know he can be notoriously slow about returning phone calls; don't take it personal, he's that way with everyone...) It's amusing to think that thanks to Corvus, I would venture that the A:.X has a far bigger membership in the USA than the IOT does now. Not that it matters - sheer numbers are not the point. But don't worry - no offense meant or taken, I assure you. I keep slugging away at _my_ book, so maybe we'll have an alternative to Pope Pete real soon . Of course, I'm trying _not_ to write a book on theory, but on practical applications and technique. Pete seems to be at his best when he stays out of the practical side and sticks to theoretical musings. Hey - let's do lunch... - J:.M:.555 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Helrunar 21 Dec 94 07:26:10 Subject: Re: PICTURE RITUALS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > I usually do that to..only I have been wanting to get some charchol > and cover the whole wall with paper and do larger than life, size > pictures or the angels I've visualized when doing LBRP. I was > thinking it would clarify what I see in my head. It sounds great. In all honesty though, there's no way I could do justice to the images I see when using visualization, so I think in my case it'd be more an impediment than a help! > what Tami's doing shure sounds like rituals to me...Maybe you > oughta ask her what shes thinking of when shes drawing and what shes Sez she's painting/drawing emotions and thoughts that don't have a realistic-looking way to describe em. Sometimes she cranks the tunes and 'paints' the music too. I dunno if it's a ritual or not, but she enjoys it. ;> > Ya thats true...if it were just a simple picture I wouldent mind > "sacrificing" it but paintings arnt something I normally do so I > would really want to keep any painting I did. I wonder it it'd hold its charge over long period of time, being wrapped & stuck away, then taken out again to 'repeat the ritual.' Or if you'd even want to do that...maybe keep the painting as a 'memory' of the ritual. You wouldn't want to use it like a talisman in that case! > well next time your over I'll tear the lambrogine down and put a > buncha paper up on the wall and I'll show you how east it is to draw > anything...then we can have fun and *charge up* our artwork. ;) I'll > Down Load the hebrew trans. GIF too so I can show you how easy it > is. It's easy for you! That doens't mean it'd be easy for *everybody*. Sheesh, my Hebrew characters have improved since I've been writing em with a calligraphy pen, but they'll *never* be 'beautiful.' Paul Hume has a very lovely Heb script; I still have trouble making 'Eyes' that don't look like 'Fishhooks!' ;> > it for drawing...when you visualize something...say a pent flaming > before you...Thats your right brain! and thats a part of being > artistic. all you gota do know is learn how to tell your hands how > to put that picture in your mind onto paper! and thats just lerning > a few tricks. ;) Well, I'm pretty ace at visualization...but I don't think the brain-to-hand coordination bit is gonna be as easy *for me* as you make it sound! Which is all right...so I ain't an artist...so what! ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Helrunar Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 21 Dec 94 10:03:40 Subject: Re: PICTURE RITUALS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law! > It sounds great. In all honesty though, there's no way I could do > justice to the images I see when using visualization, so I think in > my case it'd be more an impediment than a help! well ya I know what you mean I couldent draw any picture to look half as good as what I see in my head eather. and your right maybe it would degrade the visualizations you have too. but if your having trouble visulizing something it would help bring it out if you drew it...and a picture is phisical also so I would think it could hold a magikal charge reather well. > I wonder it it'd hold its charge over long period of time, being > wrapped & stuck away, then taken out again to 'repeat the ritual.' > Or if you'd even want to do that...maybe keep the painting as a > 'memory' of the ritual. You wouldn't want to use it like a talisman > in that case! If it was a ritual you plan on doing more than once I see no reason why you couldent "recharge" it...or just "unsealing" or taking of the bonds the are restricting the energy while its stored might bring it to life again. Like anything that is suddenly freed. It would be happy to have been let loose and energy would surge forth. But if you dont plan on ever using it again you could "ground" it and disperse the energy and just keep it for its looks. ;) > It's easy for you! That doens't mean it'd be easy for *everybody*. > Sheesh, my Hebrew characters have improved since I've been writing > em with a calligraphy pen, but they'll *never* be 'beautiful.' Paul > Hume has a very lovely Heb script; I still have trouble making > 'Eyes' that don't look like 'Fishhooks!' ;> Well I have know Idea how to write them eather sweet heart I'd have to practice too. That pretty much the only way to learn how to get your hands to recreate something. Practice makes Puuurfect. ;) > Well, I'm pretty ace at visualization...but I don't think the > brain-to-hand coordination bit is gonna be as easy *for me* as you > make it sound! Which is all right...so I ain't an artist...so what! > ;> Thats ok, We love you for who you are. You dont have to be anything you dont want to be I just thought you might like to give it a whirl. ;) Love is the law, love under will. Fr. Helrunar 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718