From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 9 Dec 94 01:10:04 Subject: Re: KARMA UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Rab <=- > I agree that the way karma manifests can, from an "objective" viewpoint, > seem impersonal or impartial, but from a personal or subjective > perspective it can be judged as good, bad, or neutral -- according to > whether it helps or hinders the accomplishment of one's (or any other's) > desires or aspirations. RD> Agreed; but being such an individual perspective, I think that would RD> show more about an individual's _samskaras_ than about _karma_ RD> as an objective force. Yes. But karma is seen (experienced) only through an individual's perspective. How can we realistically talk about an "objective" force? We can only talk convincingly about what we experience. The rest is hearsay or fantasy. RD> Also, it wouldn't necessarily 'line RD> up'...actions that negatively impact another individual's RD> desires or aspirations could have a positive impact on RD> one's own, and vice-versa, so the same action could RD> manifest as 'good' 'bad' or 'neutral' depending upon who's RD> doing the defining. How would the effects of the action RD> then manifest? All effects and points of view can be taken into account, or only one. It can be very complex. > As long as one has a goal to attain, therefore, evaluating karma can be > very useful. One needs to know what works well, and what doesn't. > In a state of transcendance, of course, the nature of evaluation and the > view of karma has become radically different. RD> Do you see 'karma' as identical at certain levels with RD> 'Success is thy proof' then? Yes. RD> 'What works well and what RD> doesn't' sounds a lot like my preferred def' of karma...we RD> act, and people/things react. Finding out what works and RD> continuing it, and what doesn't and getting rid of it, is RD> the next logical step within the framework of that def. RD> Hmmm...do we really disagree? I forget 8-) RD> My 'problem' with discussions of karma isn't that some people see it RD> as an objective force, or believe that it 'accumulates' and RD> influences the outcomes of actions, but more that all RD> *too* many people seem to see this as a reason or excuse RD> to put up with crap that shouldn't be put up with <"it's RD> the result of 'bad karma'" Exactly. This is the biggest mistake. RD> it's plain common sense. People who are able to RD> incorporate cosmic schemas without losing their common RD> sense are too few and far between for comfort--IMHO of RD> course! In this, you have no good reason to be humble - IMHO. Stand up and be contented! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Gaia 9 Dec 94 01:33:06 Subject: Re: My Son, The Mage UpdReq -=> Quoting Gaia to All <=- Ga> STROHM SAYS: Ga> Hello everyone. A little about myself- My mother describes me as a Ga> Shamanic Sorcerer. Common usage English probably doesn't get any Ga> closer, but Really what I am is "Me-ian". Hi Strohm; Interesting. But watch out for the You-ians! Seriously though, the only place to begin is at square one. (Perhaps You-ians are circles?) Ga> my experience of both has been that the symbols overshadow the reality, Ga> the reality gets lost, and nothing really happens, or what does happen Ga> is out of phase with itself. Out of phase with itself? or with your own inclinations? I think what you're saying is that those symbols don't work well for you, (though they may for others). It is entirely possible that you will find symbols that DO work well, and will not act as obstacles but as focalisers or doors to the realities you wish to explore. But at the same time, there is of course The Great Symbol, without attribution or form, which is the key to transcendant reality in which all things are possible. Curiously, not much has been written about it Western philosophies, but in the East they speak of The Tao, Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen in action, etc. I suspect this is what some neo-pagans/magicians are looking for when experimenting with "Chaos magick". Ga> What can I say, I'm a Mother. Hi Mom. Merry Solstice. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fr. Yud Area: MagickNet To: All 6 Dec 94 21:25:26 Subject: A source for Resh times? UpdReq Hi all. 93 I am looking for a source that would list, on a daily basis the times for the Liber Resh adorations. The times I need would be Sun rise, Noon, Sun set, Midnight, and Moon rise. Would a standard astrological ephemeris give there times? Does anyone have any suggestions as to other sources I should look into? I have been using a program called The Electric Almanac. In addition to being a real bitch to use for more than any one specific day, I have serious doubts about it's accuracy. Thanks in advance. 93 'yall Frater Yud Charley ... The word of gin is prohibition 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Paul Hume Area: MagickNet To: Fr. Yud 7 Dec 94 20:20:32 Subject: A source for Resh times? UpdReq Charley - 93. Any paper almanac, I believe, gives times of rise and set (that lets you calculate mid-day and mid-night pretty easily). Day to day, the weather section of the Post has the times. Paul 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Fr. Yud 9 Dec 94 10:39:48 Subject: A source for Resh times? UpdReq -=> Fr. Yud sent a message to All on 06 Dec 94 21:25:27 <=- -=> Re: A source for Resh times? <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. FY> Would a standard astrological ephemeris give there times? Does FY> anyone have any suggestions as to other sources I should look into? An ephemeris won't do it, nor a farmer's almanac. FY> I have been using a program called The Electric Almanac. In FY> addition to being a real bitch to use for more than any one specific FY> day, I have serious doubts about it's accuracy. I have to agree. I looked at three different sources for Moon phases: two of them agreed with each other and the program gave some other days. Love is the law, love under will. - V - ... And by came an angel who had a bright key 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Wored Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 9 Dec 94 18:43:00 Subject: RE: ASTROLOGY UpdReq Hello and a good day, Astrology seems to be the most easily attacked (by Chaoyoates) subject running around these days. What is this? Pope Pete must be defended under all circumstances. Pete, himself is given to defining his Magick by quabalistic interpretations. He is not the first Chaoist, and certainly one of the least reliable. His colour Magick is directly dependent on quabalistic symbology, his debates on Choas vs. Traditional Magick are dependent on (half assed) science, other Chaos magickal writers (Sherwin, Wilde, Bonowitz, and a host of others), and mOST DEFINATELY, TRADITIONAL hypothesis'. Why the hell don't people start looking outside Carrolls' work??? He uses planetary symbology on a continious basis and then says astrology is shit. When I keep reading all these `Pete Carroll' concepts being defended by people whom he himself laughs at behind their back, I have to wonder, `Have these people ever met or spoken to this jerk?' He's making a load of money by Chaoists' support. AND HE IS LAUGHING! For anyone who is an Expultant of the I.O.T. he is more than laughing. I've spoken to him personally, and HE IS HOARDING YOUR MONEY AND SUPPORT. Enjoy defending ALL of his BORROWED ideas'. I'm not directing this towards the person I'm writing persay. I am posting this so the Pete Carroll idealizers might get an idea of who it is they are giving credence to. The Chaoyoates' of this world don't adhere to ANY PERSON. Chaoyoates' are to independent for that find of bullshit. Wored the Rotten /S /SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 8 Dec 94 00:47:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Rose Dawn sent a message to Christeos Pir on 03 Dec 94 09:31:51 <=- -=> Re: Re: CHAOS <=- Love is the law, love under will. RD> Are you artistically inclined? I'd give it a go, cuz it sounds RD> great...but I'm not. :/ I dunno... lemme ask Dennis! };-> Me artistically inclined? DEclined is more like. I used to make music once in a while, but me and drawing don't make it. So much for the career as a tattoo artist! I'll try it anyway, at some point. Seems to me that a good ritual might give my hands to someone/thing else to use, and the results might be interesting. Maybe in conjunction with a voodoun working, not that there's any danger of cuttin' in on Sallie's territory! What the hey, I might even see if the 'Nochie dudes want to play! Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... blown by the wind from the low sweet brows of Hathor? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 8 Dec 94 15:23:40 Subject: Chaos UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Christeos Pir on 30 Nov 94 17:29:00 <=- -=> Re: Chaos <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> Just a smattering of stuff to show this is hardly a new or under- JN> developed idea. Thanks, BR... I knew there was something that fit the bill, but couldn't bring it to the fore (been busier'n Hades lately). You're right, all of those examples fit. I _was_ thinking in terms of western painting, though. JN> A sigil made using the G.D. "rose" method, or one of the planetary JN> magical squares, is a logo in the literal sense. I.e. a graphic OK, I call that a 'kamea.' JN> OTOH, many of the sigils among Crowley's demons and genii of the paths JN> are literally little pictures, as are some in the Key of Solomon and JN> the Geotia. That, to me, is close to the 'logo' idea. Not sure where I fit U.D.'s sigils. (Tell the truth, I'm a little too burnt to concentrate on the sigil issue. I hate to be a tease (again), but I'm having a hard time keeping my mind on it right now. It's 2 am, and I've been formatting ... printing ... reformatting ... re-printing ... the Camp newsletter for the last 6 hours.) ... so do my words devour the spirit of man. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Rab 8 Dec 94 01:15:32 Subject: Re: Picture ritual UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Ra> Seems like an obvious kind of thing to do. If we don't get stuck in Ra> thinking that it should be a linear flow, eg left to right, we should Ra> be able to remember examples in history of such "pictures". Actually, that linear thang _is_ what I was thinking about. I've seen plenty of paintings (I had western painting in mind) that used or played upon symbology (must be why I like Dali - and yes, I've seen the deck), but I was thinking of something that 'told a ritual.' Stationary Kenneth Anger, if you will, and using symbols, not signs or literal illustrations; all in a cohesive, if not necessarily coherent whole. (Not a comic book, IOW. I can see it now: Classics Illustrated presents The Goetia.) Thankas, as you mention, especially mandalas, fit the general description, though I was thinking more of spellwork than meditation. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... when thou art no longer thou. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Helrunar 8 Dec 94 01:17:52 Subject: PICTURE RITUALS UpdReq -=> Helrunar sent a message to Christeos Pir on 03 Dec 94 09:44:34 <=- -=> Re: PICTURE RITUALS <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. He> see no reason why a ritual couldent be represented in a painting. Me too neither! He> better say for a banishing or any elemental ritual, you couldent have He> say a room with the walls painted the appropriate colors and forms. Yeah, that's been done, though I haven't done it myself. (Another reason to get it together and do my large-scale Watchtowers.) He> I'm new with this stuff so I dont know much beyond resh and banashing Actually, that could be a place to start: a painting that _is_ (not 'represents') a banishing (hmm... murals on all four walls in the appropriate colors, with the god names in Hebrew letters in gold, and pictures of the archangels? Or it could even be all on one canvas.); or one that _is_ a Resh rite (including the adorations, of course.) He> if your going to represent a He> ritual of anykind in a painting it would take a great deal of reserch He> but once you have it to your likeing (only problem is that everyone He> sees difrent images and your *painting* might not work for them) He> everytime you imagine this painting it would bring forth the result He> you would get from doing the ritual. True about the different effects for different people, but the more universal your images (that's why it needs to be a work of art and not just a comic strip or rebus), the more people it would communicate with. That's why, for instance, I can get more out of a Tibetan mandala than one of those (to me) garish Bengali-style paintings. He> Of coarse just an image might not He> be as powerfull and a ritual is much more fun. ;) Well, yeah, it's not supposed to be a substitute, any more than I'd want to take one of Botticelli's canvasses to bed. (Hey, I'm open-minded, but that's a little _too_ kinky.) ;-) He> well I dont know if what I said makes any sense but I dont post too He> often. I'm a bit out of place comunicating in this media so dont mind He> my rabbling if its bothering you. ;) Made sense to me. Should I worry? Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... All corpses are sacred unto me; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: WORED Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 8 Dec 94 23:28:44 Subject: Yo Josh, UpdReq Re: Yo Max! Nice to see you! Yeah, I agree that Pete has some prctical ideas. I guess it's always bothered me that when my Temple reisgned from the idI.O.T. he pansyed out of some questions that I spoke to him about. When we resigned, Pete had just jumped overboard himself. He still was (and is, for gOOD reason) looked up to as Pope Pete bythe I.O.T. I gave him a call due to the ammount of racism and sexism that had brought about our resignation. WHAT A F**KING WUZ, man. He kept stating that he knew all about the wrongs perpitrated on members of my Temple but (and I quote)"Well, I do understand and its quite wrong what Bob (U.S. Section head) is doing. But he is my friend and...I..uh...I mean, well I'm not really an official member anymore. I...uh...I don't think i should say anything." For one, I didn't ask him to say anything. I did tell him things he already knew about and then got done to the bussiness at hand, To make sure protocol was served correctly. I had ask for resignation from the Section head, it was accepted. I then (WE, actually, the whole Temple did this enmass) then announced our resignation to the 1st council and they had accepted. "pete, are we missing anything necessary". Pete says, "Oh I'm sure that's fine." I found out 6-12 months later that we were expelled (after accepting our resignation) and guess who knew about this hypocrasy (at the time I phoned him). Why, pete Carroll. During the whole phone call his sounded like a whimpering mutt. I'm a die-hard Chaoist and will always agree that Petes' work is generally speaking O.K. (except when his physics is for shit nad when he keeps contradicting himself). However, looking at the nets, you'd think he started the whole thing and is the only writer available. WRONG! Ray Sherwin, Stephen Mace, Julian Wilde, O.S. Spare, Bonowitz, and more and BETTER and NO HIERARCHIES with these folks. Chaos Magick started in the late 60s and I was practicing what Pete was talking about in 1974 with other Chaoyotes. So, I stop by to say hello and then rant about Pete. BORING. Anyway, hope the holidays are wonderfully BIZARRE for you. "LIFE IN EXPANSION KNOWS NO RESTRICTIONS!", cried the wandering Wored 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718