From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rab 18 Nov 94 14:41:06 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Rab zwan Josh Norton ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Re: chaos, n'qah? Ra> The old shamanism permeates some sects of the Orthodox Church (e.g. Ra> the Starets, if I've got the spelling anywhere near right). Assuming you can't send in Cyrillic over PODSnet, that's fine. The actual speling, of course, would be letters pronounced ess, teh, ah, err, yeh, tse, and the closest I can come to representing their form in low-bit ASCII (since my BBS strips high characters on the way out to prevent "keyboard bombs") is: C T A P E U, The U, is supposed to be one letter -- I think you'd recognize it if you saw it now. I'm done nitpicking now. :) --Kai MacTane. ... These cookies don't taste like girl scouts! --- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 18 Nov 94 14:53:08 Subject: Re: jesus UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Rose Dawn zwan Merlin ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Re: jesus, n'qah? > Well, Oral Roberts saw a 90' Jesus! RD> RD> Oyah? 90, of course, is the enumeration of the Night Demon RD> of 2nd Dec. . I'm sure that must mean *something*. Well, Oral was probably estimating, y'know? Could have been a *93* foot Jesus, and wouldn't _that_ be a kick in the head? :) --Kai MacTane. ... Before using his razor, brush up with Occam's Shaving Soap. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rab 25 Nov 94 18:18:42 Subject: Re: tolkien UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Rab zwan Kai Mactane ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Re: tolkien, n'qah? R> Perhaps not so much the "amount" as the "quality" [of worship]? KM> I'm not sure how in the world you'd measure "quality KM> of worship" in the first place -- is snake handling better KM> or worse than quiet prayer? -- but I recognize names out of KM> the Lensman series. Ra> I don't think you'd want to "measure" quality, but you might want to Ra> evaluate it, or discern whether or not it was lacking. True, but then the reason why I might have wanted to do that was to see if it had any correlation with certain other features. Note below... Ra> Surely the quality can be judged by the kind of attention or Ra> mindstate that is brought to the object in question? By what changes Ra> occur, and the end result? The result may the most important thing. Ra> If an act of worship, involving any object, has a good result, then Ra> you can say the quality good. If not, then not. The problem with this is that it basically defines "quality" as equivalent to "effectiveness." This makes perfect sense for any applied motive, but isn't very useful as far as a theoretical background is concerned. I mean, supposing you could somehow measure "quality of worship", and suppose you found that it had no effect on the outcome of a working, but it did have an effect on the caster? Or suppose it only affected deifically-based spells? In general, what I'm pointing out is that, for a scientific exploration of anything, the most interesting result you can get is one you didn't expect. Those results often open up entirely new areas to explore. But with quality defined solely in terms of effectiveness, we close ourselves off to those potential results. --Kai MacTane. ... Have you driven a Fnord lately? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 25 Nov 94 15:22:44 Subject: Re: tolkien UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Josh Norton zrlq Kai Mactane z'qwan "tolkien"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: KM> Quite a bit, according to Lin Carter. I can post up KM> some bits from an essay he wrote on it, if you like. JN> No need. I'm sure I'll encounter it somewhere along the way. Ok. KM> He also snagged a bunch of ideas out of James Branch KM> Cabell, an early fantasist who had *also* done a pile of KM> research into old myths. JN> Out of Cabell??!?!? That's mind-boggling. His borrowing must have been JN> fairly subtle. I can't see any "Ring" characters that would match, JN> e.g., Kotschei. Unless there's some connection between Cabell's JN> bumbling heroes and the hobbits? I couldn't say out of my own knowlege, since I'm almost completely ignorant of Cabell (I know him mostly through Niven's Tales of the Leshy Circuit, in which place-names are taken from Cabell's writings) and I'm about as unfamiliar with Tolkien as you can reasonably be in this culture. :) I'm relying (once again) on Mr. Carter's opinion. I can't seem to find the damn book at the moment, so my memory could be deceiving me. He could have been saying that Tolkien took the idea of basing your writings on mythology from Cabell. I think it was something more central than that, however, because he went off into this whole spiel about how Horvendile is related Orwandel and someone else (not that I can recall which of these is Cabell's, which is Tolkien's and which is mythological). Anyway, I remembered it because the linguistic associations were interesting. --Kai MacTane. ... Atheism is a non-prophet organization! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Gaia 25 Nov 94 15:22:46 Subject: Re: witch's rune UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Gaia zrlq Kai Mactane z'qwan "Re: witch's rune"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: Ga> THANK YOU, thank you, thank you!!! I'm repeating it in case anyone Ga> missed it, it's so beautiful and powerful!!! Ga> And here's a goodie for you: You're quite welcome; it was not trouble at all. And thank you for the chant. --Kai MacTane. ... "My Law is Love unto all beings!" ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 25 Nov 94 19:40:48 Subject: Re: astrology UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Joseph Max zrlq Rab z'qwan "Re: astrology"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: JM> And if I wanted to quibble, I could point of that tidal effects are JM> not gravitational per se, but centrifical -- otherwise we would not JM> have equal tides on both the near and far sides of the earth as related JM> to the moon and sun's positions. Uhh, not really. Here's how it works, if you can parse my miserable attempts at ASCII diagramming: __ |__| (o) . <--Moon Sun Earth Now, you'll note that I pictured the Earth as three units: the water on one side, the water on the other, and the rocky core in the middle. Basically, the water responds to gravitational pulls much better than the rock. When the Moon pulls at the far side of its orbit, She's pulling most of all on the water nearest Her and least of all on the water farthest away. This results in a prolate spheroid of water. She also pulls on the rocky core by an intermediate amount, such that the rock and the water remain concentric. IOW, the Earth doesn't describe a perfect ellipse in Her orbit; there's a slight wobble from the Moon's influence. (If you discount the minor effects of other planets, you find the center-of-mass of the Earth-Moon system describing a perfect ellipse about the Sun.) Now, when we have a new of full Moon, the Moon and Sun are working coaxially, producing spring tides. In this diagram, . __ |__| (o) we have the Moon pulling the Earth slightly to the top. The water on the bottom side is less affected than the core, so it "lags" slightly, appearing, *to an observer on the core*, to "rise" *away* from the Moon. ACtually, of couse, that core-bound observer is being pulled closer to the Moon than the water. In the meantime, the Sun is exerting *His* influence in the other two directions... and the rest you know. Does this make sense now? --Kai MacTane. ... !sdohtem noitpyrcne devorppa-tnemnrevog troppus I ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 25 Nov 94 19:43:50 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Joseph Max zrlq Josh Norton z'qwan "Re: chaos"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: JM> far exceeds the gravitational influence of even the sun and moon on the JM> newborn child, due to the "inverse cube" nature of gravitational JM> force-vs-distance. Don't you mean inverse *square*? F = g M m / r^2 --Kai MacTane. ... MacIntosh: Computer with training wheels you can't remove. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 25 Nov 94 19:50:52 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Rose Dawn zrlq Helrunar z'qwan "Re: chaos"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: >>> love under will (Will = Vav-Yod-Lamed-Lamed = 73 = Chokhmah) > > If Will=73 then why do we always say 93 93/93 ? RD> I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't know what 'Will' would be RD> translated as in Hebrew or Greek... In Greek? Yes you do, look right here: RD> ... but the '93 words' for 'Love' and 'Will' that we traditionally RD> use are Agape and Thelema, which are Greek, and enumerate to '93' RD> using Greek Gematria. That's theta, eta, lambda, epsilon, mu, alpha, as follows: theta 9 eta 8 lambda 30 epsilon 5 mu 40 alpha +__1_ 93 Ta-da! --Kai MacTane. ... "So many Nymphs, so little time." - Pan ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 25 Nov 94 19:54:54 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Josh Norton zrlq Joseph Max z'qwan "Chaos"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: JN> Hmmm....Most of the time, there's not a great deal of difference. In JN> the mundane world, all information is energy -- even if it's only JN> photons bouncing off the page of a book. (Come to think of it, all we JN> really know about _anything_ in the physical world is photons. ) Are you completely discounting tactile sensation? That includes all four of the other senses, when you get down to the microscopic level. We hear by sensing the pressure of air against our eardrums, and that has nothing to do with photons. Similar comments apply for the other three senses. --Kai MacTane. ... Your E-Mail has been returned due to insufficient voltage. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 28 Nov 94 04:34:30 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Josh Norton zrlq Kai Mactane z'qwan "chaos"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: KM> You know, that almost fits. Except that I tend to see KM> the *writers* more in the Yahweh role; the Runner is just KM> put there to give him a target. JN> Haw! You're right. In fact, I recall one cartoon where exactly that JN> happened -- the artist kept redrawing things whenever coyote got too JN> close to succeeding. Saw somthing similar in a Bugs Bunny cartoon as JN> well. I have -=GOT=- to see this (the first one). "Coyote" is an off-line nickname of mine. --Kai MacTane. ... Leave me out of your life's plans, you little weirdo. - Susie ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 28 Nov 94 04:35:32 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Josh Norton zrlq Kai Mactane z'qwan "chaos"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: JN> Hmmm. I know of a particular breed of astrologers who are treating the JN> qualitative aspect of the planetary "influences" as if it were a JN> complex wave-form... [snip] JN> They've been trying to determine the exact "tones" of the planets by JN> Fourier analysis of astrological data, but I can't make head or tail JN> of their methodology -- the math is beyond my competence. I wouldn't even begin to touch it -- I don't enjoy math *or* astrology. But the idea sounds interesting. --Kai MacTane. ... Our hero is marooned on a lifeless planet! Alone on an alien world! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 28 Nov 94 04:40:34 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Rose Dawn zrlq Kai Mactane z'qwan "Re: chaos"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: > However, though he is treated with great reverence by Klingons, > I *think* that his life is historically attested, and he's not > subject to any deification (unlike, say, this Galilean weirdo...) RD> RD> You're not kidding are you...the 'Klingon Wicca' thread you RD> referred to was actually *serious convo*?? I *siad* it was a flamewar, didn't I? :) Yes, it was quite serious. On the one side, you had those insisting it could be done. On the other, you had those insisting it was theological masturbation (i.e., praying to Gods tat don't exist). RD> seem to recall the Klingon dudes attempting a vision-quest- RD> kinda-thang, complete with visions of the K-less One and RD> personal messages, etc. Okay, I suppose it could work... but not with the scanty info we've got! RD> Who's the 'Galilean weirdo'? An offhand reference to Jesus of Galilee, sometimes called "the pale Galilean" by Lavey and others. > From what I've seen, it would be too sparse. However, it does > have the advantage over Vulcan of having a complete language system. RD> RD> So I've heard! Do you have one of those handy-dandy Klingon RD> dictionaries? How d'you say "There is no law beyond Do RD> what thou wilt" in Klingon? };] I do not have one, and don't plan on it. While I enjoy Trek and its spinoffs, I prefer to devote my linguistic time and skill to Earthly languages. It seems more efficient (the number of Klingon speakers is just too low). --Kai MacTane. ... Of all the days to wear the underpants with the little rocket ships. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 28 Nov 94 04:47:36 Subject: Re: chaos, reply part ii UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Rose Dawn zrlq Kai Mactane z'qwan "Re: chaos, reply part ii"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: > I was contrasting with learning it for the Art. What I was trying > to say was that, normally, if you're going to learn a martial art, you > should be in it for the Art. If, however, you're already getting > your Art elsewhere (say, through CM, or Christian mysticism, or > whatever floats your boat), then it is reasonable to pursue a > martial art solely for its physical benefits and skills. RD> RD> Interesting...do you think there are many students in RD> American dojos these days actually learning for the Art? Not really. But I've taken no samples; this is just a totally uninformed opinion. > I see the Art in martial arts as being close enough to the > Great Work (even if only on an individual level) to make > simultaneous study in the spiritual aspects of both martial arts and > CM (or whatever...) redundant. RD> RD> Hmmm...from personal experience I would RD> disagree. Yoga practice has helped me with my C.M. work RD> immensely, and I know it has with many other people as RD> well. I am reconsidering those words. [more about karma] RD> Also, I don't RD> hear the people who holler the loudest about 'karmic RD> repurcussions' mention _dharma_ very often. Dharma requires RD> action, work, thought, and commitment, while the popular RD> def' of karma is more passive. Sometimes I think people RD> are just lazy. Yeee-hah, yes! When I was first exposed to Buddhism's four paths, _dharma_ was the one that I immediately realized was for me. Or would be, if I could ever be a Buddhist (which I couldn't, being totally, constitutionally unable to accept the First Noble Truth). I mean, how else are you gonna get anything done, aside from *action*? :) > Yes. I think that, *if* it exists (which I'm not sure it does), > it's a totally impersonal, non-moral (pre-moral?) force, much like > Newton's Third Law of Motion. RD> RD> Well, it exists, in the original meaning of the word; that's obvious. RD> If I act, my actions affect other people, and they re-act. RD> That's all the law of karma really means, I meant, if it exists as some supernatural force. In the meaning you mention, yes it is obvious. And just as valid a meaning, though not the one it's acquired through usage. RD> _per se_. I don't like the idea of people tolerating RD> things they *shouldn't* tolerate because they believe in RD> karmic return, or being paralyzed into total inaction RD> because they fear retribution for some small, RD> unintentional magical or mundane 'mistake.' I think we RD> should all get on with the business of living! But then, RD> I'm an opinionated bitch and really don't know much about RD> anything, so ignore me if it is your Will. ;> Actually, it is my Will to agree with you most resoundingly! :) --Kai MacTane. ... What fun is it being "cool" if you can't wear a sombrero? - Hobbes ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Thorson Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 29 Nov 94 02:20:00 Subject: Re: Wideranging Myths UpdReq and Christeos dicoursed upon Re: Wideranging Myths C P -=> Gaia sent a message to Rab on 22 Nov 94 02:28:00 <=- C P> -=> Re: Re: Wideranging Myths <=- C P> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. C P> Ga> Get me references. I occasionally work with 15-16 c. Navajo C P> Ga> (Athapaskan) archaeology around here. C P> C P> Say, don't I know you from somewhere? It could be.(G) C P> Question for you: how would I go about having a pot dated? Dating ceramics takes LOTS more gagetey than I have. You'ld have to break a piece off in any case. My C P>mother, who was an amateur/volunteer archaeologist with a special C P>interest in precolumbian Mesoamerica and SW U.S., had a pot which C P>she told me was Navajo and quite old. I find it hard to believe C P>that this pot, which hasn't got a crack or chip, could be all that C P>old and not a replica. I've got an article coming out on shape changes through time in Navajo pottery real soon now. Send me a picture. C P> Love is the law, love under will. C P> - CP C P> C P>... Therefore do ye fret yourselves because of this. C P>--- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 C P> * Origin: The Arena of Anon * Herndon, Virginia * (703) 904-9669 C P>(93:9810/8) Thorson written 11/28/94 06:29 --- CmpQwk #UNREG UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Gaia 29 Nov 94 22:16:08 Subject: Re: Wideranging Myths UpdReq -=> Quoting Gaia to Rab <=- Ga> and Rab@93:9630/0.0 dicoursed upon Re: Wideranging Myths R > Hi Gaia; Ga> This WAS NOT WRITTED BY GAIA! She gets on and abuses my machine! Ga> She'll get one of her own hopefully today!! YEA!!!! This IS Thorson's Ga> machine and post. Hi Thorson, then. R > Who's your friend? Ga> Richard S. MacNeish. Aha! He's still at it, then. Good to hear. My supers at the U of Alberta (1983-86) were the indomitable team of Bryan (Allan) & Gruhn (Ruth). R > Ethel (Somebody) from Ottawa. I keep forgetting her surname. R > Perhaps Campbell. I'll have to look it up ... Ga> Get me references. I occasionally work with 15-16 c. Navajo Ga> (Athapaskan) archaeology around here. R > I will. But I'm in the middle of a residential move, so it will have R > to be later. Sorreee! Ga> Don't forget to check when the boxes get opened back up. Getting there ... I do believe I saw Ethel's magnum opus advertised in a popular archaeological mag a few months ago ... now which one? GA>(We've got 20,000 year old dates from a cave Ga> in southern NM) Ga> Actually this is a most conservative date, we've got dated features Ga> that are MUCH older than this. Pendejo Cave is another Richard Ga> MacNeish project. How MUCH older? My Spanish is rusty. Translate please. Ga> I've heard about his [Dillehay's] stratigraphically lower material. Ga> He also alludes Ga> to it in the site reports. He got so much s*** from the rest of his Ga> dept. and NSF that he now only does later stuff. Terrible thing to be subversively early, isn't it? Did you read the piece in Scientific American (about 1986) by Dillehay? R > I also like the Brazilian finds at Toca da Boqueron -- 30-45,000y. Ga> I got to meet the French excavators. I'm not sure of their assocations Ga> with the spalled pictographs and dates. They do have real hearths and Ga> tools though. I'll see a report SOMEDAY. Bryan edited a major collection of reports about Early Man, about 1987, which contains a piece by ... whatsername -- M. Guinon ?... about her dig at Toca da Boqua. But seems to me there's something more recent. Interesting though to find that some new popular geographic books, world surveys/atlases, mention these early finds as a matter of course. Resistance is being nibbled away. R >wonder what will become of Simpson's 200,000y guesses in R >California. Ga> Now this is real shakey stuff, simple flakes out of active alluvial Ga> fans, and no real features. Shakey & flakey, so it seems. Amazing how far an obsession can take one. I remember Al Bryan commenting that there was a chance that a few things she uncovered just might be something, but the main flaw was in her method of classification. R> (When Workman first began scouring the Yukon in the 60s, R >he got a geologist's reading of about 200,000y for one find. But he R >scrapped his report on that in a hurry. Much too far out. 8-] Ga> Geologists without independent dating throw around BIG ballpark Ga> figures. But then they are used to bigger, less precise, age numbers Ga> than archaeologists . Good point. Still, even if this geologist was off by 50%, it's an extremely early date for Beringian occupation. Ga> All this goes to show that First Nations (I really like this Canadian Ga> derived term, wish it would catch on down here) people's were here a Ga> LOT longer than what I learned in school. Therefore their was a longer Ga> period for people to interact and exchange stories. Yes. That's the main point. Ga> I'm sure that such Ga> things as the rabbit in the moon is from Asia, Uh-huh. Ga> duality could have evolved with humans. It became more conscious at that point, at least. Do you have an Internet address? (I should have a new one soon. Let you know, if you like). ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Gaia 29 Nov 94 22:27:10 Subject: Re: Wideranging Myths UpdReq -=> Quoting Gaia to Rab <=- Ga> and Rab@93:9630/0.0 dicoursed upon Re: Wideranging Myths R > Hi Gaia; Ga> This WAS NOT WRITTED BY GAIA! She gets on and abuses my machine! Ga> She'll get one of her own hopefully today!! YEA!!!! This IS Thorson's Ga> machine and post. I'm trying a private post: Mind telling me your real name, where you're located, and what you're currently working on? Mine's Rab Wilkie, now in Toronto, in between projects after completing an ethno-historical report for the govt. about Skookum Jim and his dreams of Wealth Woman, the Tagish-Tlingit, & the Gold Rush ... gearing up for the centennial of Bonanza in '96. Also, something that might be of interest -- I have a piece, "Spirited Imagination: Ways of Approaching the Shaman's World", in: "Being Changed By Cross-Cultural Encounters: The Anthropology of Extraordinary Experience", edited by David Young & Jean-Guy Goulet, Broadview Press, Peterborough, ON, 1994. (Soon in paperback). ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Claude John Hugwell 29 Nov 94 22:49:12 Subject: Re: Chaos UpdReq -=> Quoting Claude John Hugwell to Rab <=- JN> If someone were capable of "picking up" on a particular event while it JN> was still working its way into manifestation, he would give the JN> impression of predicting the future without anything having to travel JN> backwards in time. Ra> But if one were picking up an event in process of manifesting, i.e. Ra> that has not yet happened, the message would be about a trend or Ra> probability. The trend is subject to modification and the exact form Ra> of its concretisation may be may be unforeseeable. (As TS Eliot said, Ra> betwixt thought and act falls the shadow). Some impulses do, however, Ra> ultimately manifest as intended, so some predictions can be accurate. Ra> Especially if these same predictions (or the predictor) assist the Ra> outcome. CJH> OK I've been reading this conversation for a little while now CJH> so I thought i'd put my US$0.75 in. You're thoughts have been noted. But, time is such a dense medium in which to communicate ideas across the centuries. It is more efficient simply to transcend the medium and communicate directly back into all-time or any-time. Of course, you then need transceivers (adepts) who can access the non-temporal dimension(s) from their bases in time. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Avery Area: MagickNet To: All 29 Nov 94 18:06:12 Subject: Witches on TV UpdReq Hi all! Today, on the Susan Powter talk show, one of the featured guests was Z. Budapest. The topic of the show was aprodisiacs and love potions, which has been a hot topic in some of the echos lately. Z. was showing the audience how to make a potion that one could sprinkle oneself with, or put on like cologne, that would make one seem more attractive to others. Just an interesting tidbit I thought you might enjoy. Avery ... I LOVE The Pagan Board!!! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Rab 28 Nov 94 07:23:54 Subject: Re: CHAOS, REPLY PART II UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > On the contrary, results & intentions are an integral part of karmic > law. Intention, in fact is the most important shaper of results. (Karma= > action; karma vipaka=results of previous actions). Good intention inclines > to good result, & bad intention inclines to bad result. In the Sounds like, rather than looking through various sacred texts trying to find various definitions of 'karma' before the concept was enlarged upon and given qualities it didn't originally possess, you accept it as having intrinsic values and existing as an actual force or law. I don't. > Of course it is. Why do you think it isn't? In any case a sociopath is > often MORE subject to the results of his or her actions, not less than > a more balanced individual is. Because I think it has to do more with molding swadharma than 'reaping' karma. If a sociopath lacks the emotional and psychological tweak-factors I was talking about, how would they come into play? Kukarma often 'results' in 'positive' reactions; sukarma in 'suffering.' I don't believe in the objective existence of sanchita karma or praradbha karma; and I think kriyamana karma is entirely psychological in its cause *and* its effects. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 28 Nov 94 19:41:16 Subject: RE: CHAOS UpdReq -=> JOSEPH MAX sent a message to CHRISTEOS PIR on 23 Nov 94 17:55:00 <=- -=> Re: RE: CHAOS <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JM> Check out the work of Austin Ossman Spare. That's exactly what his JM> drawings and paintings are - graphic spell/rituals. Umm... yeah, but what I've seen of his stuff hasn't done that much for me. Now, if I could get Sallie to do one...! =:-o JM> Anyway, what is sigil magick, after all? That's a little different, somehow (though perhaps only so in my mind). A sigil seems to me closer to a logo than a painting. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... And from the ox and ass come moping terrors 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: RAB 27 Nov 94 11:49:00 Subject: RE: ASTROLOGY UpdReq -=> Quoting Rab to Joseph Max <=- JM> Don't get me wrong here - your not dealing with a materialistic JM> skeptic! What I'm trying to point out is that there may well be other JM> actions at work besides the mundane physical ones like gravity and JM> electromagnetism. Ra> I understand. And have a soft spot for scientific scepticism. Ra> I'm sure other actions & factors are at work, but that physical ones Ra> we know are also involved, in ways we don't yet understand. There is much we don't yet understand, of course. Plenty of people have been investigating the "physical" factors, but understanding of any physical force model relating to astrology has been elusive. This is why I perfer to poke around with other possibilities. JM> And if I wanted to quibble, I could point of that tidal effects are JM> not gravitational per se, but centrifical -- otherwise we would not JM> have equal tides on both the near and far sides of the earth as related JM> to the moon and sun's positions. Ra> There's an interplay, surely, between tidal & centripetal (?) Ra> influences? I think you mean _gravity_ and centripetal force. I can see a possible corrolation between say, tidal effects and animal behavior, or perhaps solar flare activity. However, these are _not_ what astrologers use to create charts and analysis. I don't see tidal schedules in the table of houses or the ephemeris. Or records of sunspot activity. If these things are "causing" the effects atributted to astrological influence, why aren't they incorporated into the art of astrology? It is not logical to say that because the tidal actions on the ocean (may) have an effect on human behavior, that therefore the solar systems bodies do also. They do not exert any appriciable tidal effects. I could even go along with a "seasonal" analysis - ie. children born in winter months show different behavior patterns in life than those born in summer months, due to the difference in the order in which they first experience the seasons. But these would be wildly skewed in different geological locations, and again, they are not taken into account in astrology. We must stick with what _is_ taken into account - the various relative locations of the planets at the time of birth - and look for the energy that causes the influence from _them_. I just can't accept it as easily as accepting that it's _all_ part of a greater synchronistic pattern that has nothing to do with gravity or anything else scientifically measurable. JM> And the "butterfly effect" is something that is an exception, not a JM> rule. Things like the jet stream and the ocean currents play a far JM> greater role than any one butterfly. The whole point of chaotic JM> functions is that they are _chaotic_ and hard to predict. They don't JM> happen consistantly, or we'd see as many hurricanes as there are JM> butterflies! Conversely, astrology is the epitome of consistancy, so I JM> don't think you can properly invoke Chaos Theory to be the loophole JM> that allows for astrology. Ra> I see your point. I should have mentioned a better example to Ra> illustrate how a weak influence can be consistently significant. I Ra> don't suppose you'd accept one from subatomic physics? Weak Ra> interactions, etc. No, not really - we're confusing apples with oranges here. The closest thing to what you're describing _is_ in chaos dynamics - it's called "Extreme Sensitivity To Initial State" and it does exert influences on the non-linear dynamics of a sufficiently large system. But it's probabilistic, which means that only in a small percentage of cases does it evolve to the point of drastic changes in the "later" state of the system. We can predict the _percentage_ of times it will so evolve, but not specific cases. For example, meteorologists can say confidently there will be a certain number of hurricanes in a given year, and they will fall over a certain range of months and a certain range of areas. But they can't predict the _exact_ number or the _exact_ days and or the _exact_ areas that this average will manifest. This is due to the fact that only a _few_ butterfly wing flappings will fall into the "catastrophe curve" and evolve into hurricanes. Ra> I understand your a-causal perspective. But fail to see why you don't Ra> think there is human response to the cyclic cosmic influences in Ra> which we are immersed. Do your really believe that the relationship Ra> with our cosmic environment is almost totally coincidental? This Ra> sounds very out of touch. I wouldn't call it "coincedental", as in "accidental". In fact, I think every event in the universe is the result of a greater "pattern". ... GRAVITY: Not just a good idea, it's the law. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Wicked Witch Area: MagickNet To: Chris Stoudt 29 Nov 94 14:44:16 Subject: contact... UpdReq CS>Hello. I had some dealings with a certain entity back in high school but CS>since then nothing. I am now trying to reinitiate the contact. Basically You too? How long ago was this for you, me almost a decade. CS>what I am asking for is if anyone has had any contact/info/etc on the CS>entity CS>called Astoreth, also known as ASTARTE and a few other names. I would CS>like How about AZARET or some such phonetic spelling? CS>to hear any stories about dealing people have had with her. I am trying CS>to see if what happened to me was real... My belief status in this whole CS>feild is going down hill and I need to reassure myself... :) Especially CS>since I have not had that many supernatural experiences... Well, here goes nothing, considering you've probably dropped from the boards. Most people will look at you like you grew arms and legs in all the wrong places when you start talking about such things. The most you will probably learn is to believe in yourself and know that it was real. Though your experience may differ that from others, there's always that thread that connects. Well, if your still around, let me know. This BBS seems to carry most of PODs, so if this board turns out to be inappropriate for this discussion (which I'm sure the happy moderator will be more than happy to let us know... and possibly guide us to a better one... :) Take care WW 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 30 Nov 94 13:22:04 Subject: chaos UpdReq Hi Kai! JN> Hmmm....Most of the time, there's not a great deal of difference. In JN> the mundane world, all information is energy -- even if it's only JN> photons bouncing off the page of a book. (Come to think of it, all we JN> really know about _anything_ in the physical world is photons. ) KM> Are you completely discounting tactile sensation? That includes all four KM> of the other senses, when you get down to the microscopic KM> level. KM> We hear by sensing the pressure of air against our KM> eardrums, and that has nothing to do with photons. Similar KM> comments apply for the other three senses. Au contraire. _Every_ physical transfer of energy is ultimately an exchange of photons between atoms or other particles. That includes gross physical transfers of the sort you mention, and the chemical transfers of the sense of smell. See any modern physics textbook. When you push your hand against something, the pressure is transfered from the atoms of your hand to the atoms of the object by means of photon exchange. It's just that there are LOTS of photons involved, and they are at too low an energy-state (and don't scatter enough) to be seen by your eyes. Same for the variations in atmospheric pressure that hit your eardrums and are perceived as sound, and for the chemical changes in your nervous system itself. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: All 29 Nov 94 12:20:58 Subject: PONY EXPRESS ;> UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Rainlake asked me to forward the following to this echo and _Sex Magick_. Ok, here goes: > This is from Rainlake, though Rose is posting it. My board's PODS and > NUIT feeds have crashed permanently, and it will be a good while before > I can be back on either net. Those of you to whom I owe replies, I > haven't forgotten you, and will answer as soon as we're back up and > PODS/NUITing. Meanwhile, for anybody who wants to be in touch, I'm > rain@hothouse.iglou.com on the Internet and Rain, 1:2320/180 on Fido. > I *miss* y'all, dammit! We now return you to your regularly scheduled flaming. ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 29 Nov 94 21:23:34 Subject: Re: CHAOS Rec'd UpdReq -=> Rose Dawn sent a message to Christeos Pir on 26 Nov 94 07:45:20 <=- -=> Re: Re: CHAOS <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> Hmm...no reason why it couldn't. Did Spare do this kind of thing? Did RD> you have something particular in mind? Tell me more, sounds RD> interesting! Well, I dunno. Keep in mind I'm thinking this as I go . . . Think about calligraphy; or better yet of how a great painting 'works': in my view, by a sort of communication that for lack of a better term I'll call 'right-brain.' The elements of the picture might be placed there purposefully, in a definite and deliberate flow, meant to convey -not a message on the human condition, battle between Jahweh and Satan, or relativity and time- but a magical ritual or spell, set down step by step, just as it would be performed. Almost like hieroglyphic or pictographic writing, but in a work of art, not just a rebus. Love is the law, love under will. - V - ... For there is no Symbol of Thee. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Thorson Area: MagickNet To: Rab 1 Dec 94 02:40:00 Subject: Re: Wideranging Myths UpdReq and Rab@93:9630/0.0 dicoursed upon Re: Wideranging Myths R > Ga> Richard S. MacNeish. R > Aha! He's still at it, then. Good to hear. He's 76 and completey destroyed any concept I ever had of aging. I go to dig with him to China every fall. My supers at the U of R > Alberta (1983-86) were the indomitable team of Bryan (Allan) & Gruhn R >(Ruth). Ooooohhhh!!! I've read some of their stuff. R > R > Ethel (Somebody) from Ottawa. I keep forgetting her surname. R > R > Perhaps Campbell. I'll have to look it up ... R > R > Getting there ... I do believe I saw Ethel's magnum opus advertised R >in a popular archaeological mag a few months ago ... now which one? R > R > GA>(We've got 20,000 year old dates from a cave R > Ga> in southern NM) R > Ga> Actually this is a most conservative date, we've got dated R > Ga> features that are MUCH older than this. Pendejo Cave is R > Ga> another Richard MacNeish project. R > R > How MUCH older? Maybe another ten, MAYBE twenty thousand. R > My Spanish is rusty. Translate please. Its the sort of term that one dosen't say it in a Juarez bar except to a good friend. The term signifys the lowest hair on your bondy when you sit down in circle.(g) It was the name of a canyon on the USGS map where the site was. BTW, the cave was MAGICAL w. dried oak branches with leaves and acorns, and its 20 mi. to oaks now, and get a 20,000 radiocarbon date off it. Their was a segment of a Canadaian science program shot there sort of like Nova in hte US. on the place. Actually at the same time we dug a shrine site in an adjcent cave. It had 100's of points from all kinds of materials from all over the place stuck in cracks, a stone pipe, and geometric designs painted in red on the walls. You can see for miles from its mouth. R > R > Ga> I've heard about his [Dillehay's] stratigraphically lower R > Ga> material. He also alludes R > Ga> to it in the site reports. He got so much s*** from the rest of R > Ga> his dept. and NSF that he now only does later stuff. R > Terrible thing to be subversively early, isn't it? R > Did you read the piece in Scientific American (about 1986) by R >Dillehay? Yes indeed. 14,000 year old structures. R > R > I also like the Brazilian finds at Toca da Boqueron -- R >30-45,000y. R > Ga> I got to meet the French excavators. I'm not sure of their R > Ga> assocations with the spalled pictographs and dates. They do have R > Ga> real hearths and tools though. I'll see a report SOMEDAY. I MUST have been slow that day. I was thinking of Pedra Ferada (sp.?) another Brazilian cave dug by French archaeologists that MacNeish talks about. R > Bryan edited a major collection of reports about Early Man, about R >1987, which contains a piece by ... whatsername -- M. Guinon ?... R >about her dig at Toca da Boqua. But seems to me there's something R >more recent. Interesting though to find that some new popular R >geographic books, world surveys/atlases, R > mention these early finds as a matter of course. Resistance is being R > nibbled away. What its gotten down to is a matter of faith and has left science, their are LOTS of real old sites out there done with good methods and either people believe in whats there or they don't. R > Do you have an Internet address? (I should have a new one soon. Let R >you know, if you like). R >___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 *Sigh* GNB says that he will have Internet access up real soon now. I'll let you know. Thorson written 11/30/94 07:31 --- CmpQwk #UNREG UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Wored Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 28 Nov 94 22:55:00 Subject: RE: CHAOS UpdReq Not all of A. O. Spears work was Magickal! You can check on his criticao reveiwers from 1913 as well as his own notes. When I was in England, I did alot of research on the man (as I was there two years I had the time) odin his own WORDS he did not INTEND (Magick is intentional, NO?) he did not do all of his work with magickal intentions. Why would I be so interested? Because I'm an artist and found it difficult to beleive that his drawing were not ALL specified towards magick. Joseph, it's nice to know your writing a book. It's about time we got something more out on the market! LIFE IN EXPANSON GNOSIS (KNOWS) NO RESTRICTIONS! (I'm chanting as we speak.) Wored the Rotten /S 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718