From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 17 Nov 94 16:36:00 Subject: Chaos UpdReq RD> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> RD> I'm gonna borrow a phrase from my daughter: Yo there, Very Honored Dude! ;> RD> Right back atcha! > I can understand that...I wonder quite often when some new discordian > convert is going to try grabbing my handle. RD> RD> Make a lot more sense than grabbing 'Rose Dawn.' If it RD> wasn't my name, I wouldn't use it...the immediate RD> association for most people is 'hippie chick.' :/ My first association when I saw it was to Homer -- the "rhodos aurora" that starts off so many days in _The Odyssey_. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 18 Nov 94 00:00:02 Subject: Chaos UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Joseph Max <=- JM> [re: astrology] JM> If there's anything to it, I think that the planetary movements are like the JM> hands of a clock: a clock does not "make" time exist, it merely allows us to JM> mark duration and form some simbelence of simultaneous action. So in the JM> same way, the planets do not "influence" earthly events per se, but due to JM> "as above, so below" their motions allow us to see in them a higher pattern JM> of reality. Any other way of looking at it is like saying that fire alarms JM> cause fires. I'm a little confused. In an unquoted paragraph, you said there was no place in your theory for astrological "effects" to be magickal in nature. But the rest of the paragraph spoke only of reasons why you think it can't be caused by known, measurable, physical means. Are you saying that all magickal effects occur through known physical processes? While I don't demand a _causative_ relationship between planetary movements and changes in consciousness, anyone with a modicum of patience and self-perception can verify for themselves that, if nothing else, there is a consistent, repeatable relationship between cyclic changes in their individual perceptions and the movement of the planets. I don't have any reliable explanation for why it happens, though I'm not so quick as you to discount gravitational and electromagnetic forces as possibilities. JM> With my "pure information" model, the information is recieved aetherically JM> by the subconscious mind and percieved by the conscious mind in a manner JM> that can be sensed, since sensory information is all that the conscious mind JM> can deal with. And it is quite clear that the actions subconscious can have JM> startling effects on the conscious mind's perceptions! JM> [much stuff deleted] JM> Only if you have to switch models in order to account for all of them - JM> basic scientific method. AIT accounts for all with no problem. The model's JM> hypothesis can account for all the observed phenomena, which strictly JM> speaking, elevates it from hypothesis to actual theory. Now hold on there, pilgrim! I think you're going a bit overboard here. As you've admitted in other discussions, most of what you're trying to account for here still lies in a subjective, scientifically _unmeasurable_ area of reality. Let's not go elevating things to the level of theory until you have an objective means of verifying that your ideas apply to the area you are explaining with it. You've already brought in at least one factor objective science would reject out of hand -- the "aethyr". Reference by analogy to already-measurable areas just won't do. By the standard you're using, creationism or the discordian "law of fives" is just as much a theory because they "explain" everything they apply to. JN> Hmmm. As an alternative to Bell's theorem, I would offer the JN> explanation that events have to work their way "downwards" through the JN> magickal planes before manifesting on the physical level. And this JN> process takes time to occur, in physical terms. (This is observably JN> true of the "mass" changes in ideas I was speaking of previously, and JN> seems as true for my own internal processes.) If someone were capable JN> of "picking up" on a particular event while it was still working its JN> way into manifestation, he would give the impression of predicting the JN> future without anything having to travel backwards in time. JM> Fair enough, but in the end, we're _still_ talking about _information_ JM> transfer, rather than _energy_ transfer. JM> Kinda makes ya think, eh? Hmmm....Most of the time, there's not a great deal of difference. In the mundane world, all information is energy -- even if it's only photons bouncing off the page of a book. (Come to think of it, all we really know about _anything_ in the physical world is photons. ) It's only in some extremely hard-to-set-up quantum events that information _seems_ to be transfered without an exchange of energy. In the magickal world, the three aspects of energy, quality, and content don't always appear together, but we've no way of knowing what's really happening aside from the subjective appearance. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 17 Nov 94 09:24:02 Subject: Re: CHAOS 2/ UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > More like I'm not sure the answer will fit into this poor brain of mine. > But there's been suggestions of this possibility in my enochian works > practically from the point where I first got serious about it. Y'know Josh, this whole message was almost entirely over my head, as it deals with matters way beyond anything I've even attempted to scratch the surface of. Mostly I wanted to acknowledge receipt and again, say thanks for giving me something to save to disk for future pondering. I did want to ask about the 'getting serious' though...do you mean when your practice went beyond experimenting and familiarizing yourself with the basic schema 'as is' and started pushing the envelope? I've heard--and my very VERY basic and limited experience would tend to confirm--that just about any sincere attempt to work with the Enochian system will bring 'results' of some sort, even for an inexperienced individual. I almost have an image of "::sigh:: ...Ok, if you insist...here," and breaking off a little corner of bread for a demanding kid...then later the kid gets his own bread, and apples'n'carrots and all that good stuff, and finally starts bringing it in his own bad self. How long would you say it was before you 'got serious'? Or was it an on-going process of 'deepening seriousness?' > Every time he showed up, it was a complete surprise; and a definite > discontinuity in the process in progress, a sudden "jump" to a > higher level. Instant Initiation--Just Add Comselha! > Aha! That's the pattern! (image of light bulb going on) Each time he > appeared, it was immediately after I had successfully extended the > enochian system beyond its original parameters, or transformed it in > some way that existed only in potential in the original system. And it > didn't happen when I first perceived the possibility, or when I wrote > about it, but only after I had "made it real" through hard work. Whew! Hardcore...don't think I'll be able to really grasp this concept for a while. Heh--maybe part of my Job in Life is to ask dumb questions which enable experienced magicians to evoke light bulbs over their heads? ;> > So I guess you could say that the Enochian god likes creativity, > actively expressed. Moral: be a creative magician. Tryin' to Boss! ;> A pleasure, as always. Love is the Law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 16 Nov 94 18:24:22 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Josh Norton zwan Joseph Max ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Chaos, n'qah? JN> Seems to me that if we're going to sort out these things, we have to JN> ascribe to magickal "energies" at least three distinct aspects: JN> -- a "force" aspect: JN> -- an "information" aspect, [and] JN> -- a qualitative aspect: the fact that magickal "energies" feel JN> different from each other in consistent ways and produce differing JN> effects on our consciousness. E.g. a Jupiter "energy" produces a sense JN> of expansion, largess, humor, paternalism, etc., in the perceiver, JN> while Mars produces a sense of power, aggressiveness, conflict, sexual JN> arousal, desire for physical activity, etc. This is more or less what I've generally thought of as the energy's "frequency." Joseph, please note that I am aware of what frequency means in relation to the usual electromagnetic waves, and I am *NOT!* using the term in anything even close to a rigorous, physical-sciences sense of the term! However, I note that, bearing in mind that this is *only_a_metaphor* and not an actual physical description, you *can* map those three "aspects" to functions of electtromagnetic waves. The "force" is like amplitude, the "quality" like frequency, and the information is similar to any message that might normally be encoded into an electromagnetic transmission, whether by frequency or amplitude modulation or some more esoteric process. Also, note that frequency, in its technical sense, is a scalar quantity, while "frequency" in this magickal sense might be a more complex variable better expressed as a two- or more-dimensional number, a complex number, a vector sum or by some other means. Or we might find that the range of available magickal frequencies *could* be mapped onto a linear scale. --Kai MacTane. ... English Witches do it right, but eclectic Witches do it better. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 16 Nov 94 19:38:30 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Rose Dawn zwan Kai Mactane ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Re: chaos, n'qah? RD> ROTFL! Alla de above, maybe? I do recall, though, a ST:TNG RD> episode where Worf makes a magical retirement of sorts to RD> seek out his spiritual roots, and meets a sort of Klingon RD> Messiah/Hero...Kailass Kahless, I believe. He occupies sort of the same place in Klingon culture as Surak does in Vulcan culture: the Guy What Gave it All its Present Form. I believe Kahless (pronounced KAY-less, as in "showing a distinct lack of K") was more-or-less a Genghis Khan-ish sort of guy, who united a horde of warring factions into a unified Klingon Empire. However, though he is treated with great reverence by Klingons, I *think* that his life is historically attested, and he's not subject to any deification (unlike, say, this Galilean weirdo...) RD> Kinda sparse on details as far as fictional RD> reconstruction goes, though, so I don't know how valuable RD> it'd be for 'Klingon Wicca' practice. From what I've seen, it would be too sparse. However, it does have the advantage over Vulcan of having a complete language system. RD> Being a true devotee of trash culture, I must admit that RD> the idea of Klingon Sex Magick sounds like it might be RD> purdy intriguing. ;> But since Christeos Pir is a pal of RD> mine, let's not bring it up in the Sex Magick echo. ==:o I'm not on that echo anyway, so that'll be easy. :) I think you'd need Klingon anatomy to do Klingon sex magick, tho'... I recall Worf calling human women "too fragile" at one point. (!) RD> In all honesty, the reason I don't RD> memorize that thoroughly is simply because I haven't been RD> able to...practicing ritual with script in hand or *at* RD> hand is what makes it 'stick' for me, rather than trying RD> to commit words on paper to my tired brain cells, so RD> that's the way I do it. ;> Makes sense to me. Most people learn best by doing. --Kai MacTane. ... You have reached God. For reincarnation, press "1" on your touchtone.. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 16 Nov 94 19:49:32 Subject: Re: chaos, reply part ii UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Rose Dawn zwan Kai Mactane ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Re: chaos, reply part ii, n'qah? > If you are learning the Art for spiritual purposes... > If you are learning the art for self-defense (which makes sense in > today's society, especially for those who follow spiritual avenues > elsewhere)... RD> I'm interested in your statement that self-defense is RD> sensible in today's society 'especially for those who RD> follow spiritual avenues elsewhere.' I'm not quite sure RD> what you mean by this, would you care to expound a bit RD> further? I was contrasting with learning it for the Art. What I was trying to say was that, normally, if you're going to learn a martial art, you should be in it for the Art. If, however, you're already getting your Art elsewhere (say, through CM, or Christian mysticism, or whatever floats your boat), then it is reasonable to pursue a martial art solely for its physical benefits and skills. I see the Art in martial arts as being close enough to the Great Work (even if only on an individual level) to make simultaneous study in the spiritual aspects of both martial arts and CM (or whatever...) redundant. I wouldn't swear to it, of course, since my info on the martial arts is mostly from writers about it. But I'm reasonably confident in that assessment for now. I didn't mean that self-defense was sensible for those following spiritual paths (though I suppose it is...); I meant that limiting yourself to the self-defense aspects of martial arts is sensible for those engaged on other spiritual paths. Sorry for being so unclear. > -=BUT=-, I think the teacher *absolutely* does take karmic return > for _having_taught_that_student_. If a student comes in and starts asking > me how to cast specific love spells, because he says it would be really > fun to be able to make any woman want to sleep with him, I'm not going to > teach that guy! If a guy shows himself to use his martial arts > knowledge to > beat up his girlfriends, intimidate the weak and oppress the > helpless, no decent sensei -- hell, no decent *human being* -- > should continue to teach this guy any arts of violence. Let him > learn /ikebana/, instead! RD> RD> I don't subscribe to the popular idea of 'karma' as a sort of cosmic RD> equallizer. Neither do I. I think I said somewhere that I was using the popular conception, but I might have left it out. RD> The word means, simply 'action.' There is an RD> implication of 'reaction' contained therein, but no sort RD> of value judgment... Yes. I think that, *if* it exists (which I'm not sure it does), it's a totally impersonal, non-moral (pre-moral?) force, much like Newton's Third Law of Motion. RD> What is _ikebana_? ;> The Zen Art of Flower Arrangement. --Kai MacTane. ... Psychic meeting cancelled due to unforeseen problems. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Cijan Nee Grania 16 Nov 94 19:51:34 Subject: Re: universal laws? UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Cijan Nee Grania zwan Kai Mactane ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth universal laws?, n'qah? KM> No, I'm just wondering where you got the M.A. Is it from JFK KM> University, or did you do some kind of Design-Your-Own-Study program CNG> Oxford University, College of Psy. In 1979 when I got it, Jeff CNG> Mishlove had just completed his disortation and was chairing the dept. CNG> I understand that he has since left and the whole thing has fallen CNG> apart. Not that there' much reconized use for it at the moment. CNG> "Ghost Busters" pretty much killed any chance of us being taken CNG> seriously for quite awhile. Have you seen Loyd Auerbach's book (I forget the title). It tries to make that work positively, by using "Ghostbusters" as a jumping-off point. I thought the book was fairly good, but I'm no professional. --Kai MacTane. ... File not found! Should I fake it? (Y/N):_ ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Thorson 17 Nov 94 02:18:00 Subject: Re: Wideranging Myths UpdReq -=> Quoting Thorson to Rab <=- R> I suspect that North Americans may be able to perceive a R> livelier, brighter side, particularly with Valar contacts. Th> Oh? Uh-huh. R> there's the original R> Siberian shamanism, some of which has found its way into R> AmerIndian traditions, most noticeably in the far northwest. Th> Not too odd although the Inuit never paid too much attention to Th> modern international borders. The only border they've ever been concerned about is the US/Soviet one, which was closed until a few years ago. Since then, families who have been separated for generations have been allowed to visit. The other border, US/Canada, hasn't posed much of a problem because between Alaska and the Cdn. Arctic there's an unsettled gap, separating the two main Inuit branches. (There are no Yukon Eskimos). R >Some would say ALL New World aboriginal traditions derive from R >Siberia). So perhaps to some extent anyone who works with AmerIndian R >myth is also dealing with Russian. At least some deep links do exist. Th> That may be, but such myths could be older still. Th> The Maya, the Han Chinese, and *perhaps* the prehistoric Mimbres Th> culture of SW NM see a rabbit figured on the moon facing left. By "Siberian" I mean the central and north Asian shamanist complex, which is ancient enough. But of course some myths could indeed go back further. Th> Why are so many Moon deities female? Why not? There's a 50% chance they would be female rather than male. But in any case many cultures regard(ed) the Moon as male, (e.g. Japanese, Sumerian, Celtic (?), etc. Th> How old is binary oposition and who is responsible? It's as old as time, I'm sure, but "what" rather than "who" might be a more viable enquiry. R> One anthropologist has been working on a theory that among Athapaskans R> there are traces of refugees who fled Genghis Khan in the 12th C. Th> Who is this? Ethel (Somebody) from Ottawa. I keep forgetting her surname. Perhaps Campbell. I'll have to look it up ... Th> I tend to buy Christy Turner's Athapaskan origin dates. It is Th> interesting that Shovel-shaped incisors (little depressions in the Th> back of the teeth) are found in both First Nation's people and in Th> Chinese. They are found in other populations as well, in various parts of the world. (Danish, or example). Not the best indicator. Anyway, note I said that the refugee traces were allegedly found *among* Athapaskans, which might indicate that they were assimilated into a population already present in N. America. Not that all Athapaskans migrated here in the 12th C. The main thing to recognize is that people have been moving back and forth between Old & New Worlds via Beringia, and intermingling, for tens of thousands of years. Indigenous populations on both sides are the result. This is more evident around Bering Strait, and becomes less so the further south you go, ie towards and into South America. The Inuit & Athapaskans are two distinct groups, arrived relatively recently, while the third main American group, "AmerIndians", making up the rest of the population, seem to have been here much longer, and probably contain elements of several no longer distinguishable, more ancient populations. Th> I've never been a hyper-diffusionist but also have problems with the Th> "collective unconsciousness" stuff as an alternative explanation. Some Th> stories can last for a long time in oral literature cultures. Both diffusion AND universal archetypes undoubtedly play major roles in the development of myths, along with convergence. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 18 Nov 94 01:26:00 Subject: Re: Tolkien UpdReq -=> Quoting Christeos Pir to Rab <=- Ra> I don't suppose that these old American deities have anything at all Ra> to do with the current state of affairs in the US ... with its Ra> extremely high rates of violent crime, murder, & mayhem? CP> I'd think it has more to do with cultural and social (and economic) CP> reasons. 'Sides, the Aztec were in Mexico. North America was home to CP> hundreds of different native cultures, running the gamut from CP> extremely fierce and martial to sedentary and peace-loving. I hardly CP> think we can blame our messes on their deities. CP> No, if I was going to pick a religion to blame ... nah, I won't get CP> started. Right you are! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 18 Nov 94 02:21:02 Subject: Astrology UpdReq -=> Quoting Joseph Max to Josh Norton <=- JN> One interesting thing is that in the one area where some sort of JN> objective component is possible, astrology, they find that JN> interactions of the "energies" of different planets behave as if they JN> were wave-forms (specifically, standing-waves) of different JN> frequencies intersecting in 3-D space. JM> I'm very ambivilent about astrology. There is nothing in my theories JM> that allow for it to actually be magickal in nature. Again, the energy JM> metaphor fails: the gravitational effect exerted by the body of the JM> mother and anyone else in the room on a child's body when it is born JM> far exceeds the gravitational influence of even the sun and moon on the JM> newborn child, due to the "inverse cube" nature of gravitational JM> force-vs-distance. Gravity may be just one factor among many, but it is evident that solar & lunar gravities do exert considerable influence on the biosphere as a whole, affecting weather & tides for example. Individual entities are subject to very weak, direct effects, but insofar as they are members of a domain which IS significantly affected, they participate in the overall dynamic. But, more to the point, a weak influence is not necessarily insignificant. (E.g. Chaos theory and the "butterfly effect"). JM> Same for the magnetic fields of the planets - JM> earth's magnetic field itself is unusually strong for a planet and is JM> many millions of times more powerful than any such effects exerted by JM> distant astronomical bodies. Again, the whole system of the solar system has to be considered, and all the interacting fields of sun, moon, & planets. Some effects are quite subtle, but the most obvious involve the sun/earth/moon dynamic. For example, the moon acts as a distributor of solar radiation, alternately blocking and releasing build-ups in the Earth's magnetosphere every month. Days of blockage & release correspond (as in Eastern calendars) with days when feminine & masculine energies can be accessed most effectively. JM> Again, to ascribe an energy model to JM> astrology requires that we posit a form of energy that is undetectable JM> by any physical means and does not obey any rules that are normally JM> associated with any other kind of energy known to exist. Not so. But astrological effects probably involve not one form of energy but many, including some (or ALL!) forms that we can detect. JM> If there's anything to it, I think that the planetary movements are JM> like the hands of a clock: a clock does not "make" time exist, it JM> merely allows us to mark duration and form some simbelence of JM> simultaneous action. So in the same way, the planets do not "influence" JM> earthly events per se, but due to "as above, so below" their motions JM> allow us to see in them a higher pattern of reality. Any other way of JM> looking at it is like saying that fire alarms cause fires. The clock function is one of many that astrology includes. JM> Similarly, the Zodiacal and Planetary symbologies are useful JM> archtypical metaphors for the actions of the human psyche. This is JM> astrology's greatest use, as I see it. Symbolic function is another. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718