From: Thorson Area: MagickNet To: Rab 16 Nov 94 02:18:00 Subject: Wideranging Myths UpdReq and Rab@93:9630/0.0 dicoursed upon Re: Chaos R -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Rab <=- R > R> I suspect that North Americans may be able to perceive a R > R> livelier, brighter side, particularly with Valar contacts. Oh? Russian myth goes, there's the original R >Siberian shamanism, some of which has found its way into R >AmerIndian traditions, most noticeably in the far northwest. Not too odd although the Inuit never paid too much attention to modern international borders. (Some R >would say ALL New World aboriginal traditions derive from R > aSiberia). So perhaps to some extent nyone who works with AmerIndian R >myth is also dealing with Russian. At least some deep links do R >exist. That may be, but such myths could be older still. The Maya, the Han Chinese, and *perhaps* the prehistoric Mimbres culture of SW NM see a rabbit figured on the moon facing left. Hero Twin myths are common throughout North and Middle America and in Asia as well. Why are so many Moon dities female? How old is bianary oposition and who is responsable. R> One R >anthropologist R > has been working on a theory that among Athapaskans there are traces R >of refugees who fled Genghis Khan in the 12th C. R > Who is this? I tend to but Christy Turner's Athapaskan origin dates. It is interesting that Shovel-shaped incisors (little depressions in the back of the teeth) are found in both First Nation's people and in Chinese. I've never been a hyper-diffusionist but also have problems with the "collective unconsciousness" stuff as an alternative explanation. Some stories can last for a long time in oral literature cultures. Thorson written 11/15/94 12:16 --- CmpQwk #UNREG UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rab Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 15 Nov 94 01:47:04 Subject: Re: Tolkien UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Rab <=- R> What you say is partly true. Such characters do have a culturally R> specific as well as a universal facet, but while one can on occasion R> access the universal through a character, one cannot sever the connection R> with its other side. If the relationship with said character is ongoing R> to any extent, one ends up sooner or later having to deal with both R> sides. JN> Well, now....can't say I agree with that. I've been invoking Egyptian JN> gods for decades now, and haven't seen a great deal that I would JN> identify as being related to ancient Egypt's specific cultural JN> limitations. If I haven't encountered them in that long a time, it JN> seems doubtful to me that I ever will. Hmm. Maybe I should have said that "one OFTEN cannot sever the connection". At least some people get a bit of shock when the culturally specific end snaps back at them. Guess it all depends ... JN> OTOH, I _do_ get such cultural elements with some of the Babylonian JN> gods, but the content of the results makes me attribute that to either JN> (a) "past life" connections with that culture, or (b) strong resonance JN> between that culture and my current personality, or both. ... on conditions such as you mention above. R> Your experiences of accessing an essential "power" directly through a R> symbol (or character) do not exclude the possibility of an ambient power, R> built up through use or its actions through time. Recall "Power & Glory". R> The Glory is the ambience. And of course a power may have relatively R> little glory. JN> Since you can't prove a negative, all I can say is that I don't see JN> it. But surely you can conceive of it? Use imagination. What I'm suggesting is that one can begin to see more by expanding the mind to include more possibilities. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 15 Nov 94 09:01:04 Subject: Re: CHAOS 1/ UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. I'm gonna borrow a phrase from my daughter: Yo there, Very Honored Dude! ;> > I can understand that...I wonder quite often when some new discordian > convert is going to try grabbing my handle. Make a lot more sense than grabbing 'Rose Dawn.' If it wasn't my name, I wouldn't use it...the immediate association for most people is 'hippie chick.' :/ Emperor Norton sounded like a way-kewl character at any rate. ;> > Err...with that spelling, actually it adds to either 110 or 670, > depending on whether you use the final value. But those don't give > anything better. Samek-Aleph-Mem would be 101 or 661. 101 is the > numeration of MIKAL, sword-carrying archangel of Sol and of Fire. Which > fits pretty well with a solar-martial deity whose nature is "force and > fire". Good granny! 670 is definitely it with the Mem final...I wonder where *my* head was at? :/ My usual excuse is to plead caffeine deprivation...most likely that's what it was! I think yer right, we'll use 101--far's I'm concerned it fits. > Foghorn Leghorn. That's the guy! He was an asshole but y'know, I always kinda liked him. ;> > But in neither of those cases were the magicians changing the Calls > themselves, from which the power is generated. Good point. LOL...I heard a bit more about the CoS Enochian experiments recently...sounded like 'Satan!!!!' was going in bout every other word. Dunno though, wasn't there. ttyl! Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 15 Nov 94 09:11:26 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > [knockknockknock] > "Whaddaya want?" > "I want to get f*cked!" > "OK, slide $50 under the door." > . . . > [knockknockknock] > "Now what?" > "I told you, I want to get f*cked!" > "What, again!?" ROTFL!! Thanks...I needed that. }:D > Samekh-Yod-Mem final would be 670. Samekh-Yod-Mem is 110. I presume you > meant Aleph for Yod, which would give 661 and 101, respectively.(No > wonder you hate this! ) Ahhh...the Subject line is Chaos...it was all a clever plot on my part to introduce chaotic elements of bs into the Gematria system and see who caught on. Aleph'd be 661, yup...so I either typed Yod when I meant Aleph for some reason, or I was just suffering from more extreme than usual caffeine dep'...I hate when that happens. :/ At the moment, I'm focusing on a lot of things I really can't stand--boggle, boggle, sizzle, snap! > Note that Samekh-Vav-Mem final = 666 ... God as the great "I am." > (Sum is latin for "I am.") 2kewl. What's the enumeration for 'Foghorn Leghorn'? > Love is the law (Law = Legis = Lamed-Gimel-Samekh = 93), > love under will (Will = Vav-Yod-Lamed-Lamed = 73 = Chokhmah) You wanna hear something truly scary? I *knew* that!!! =:o LOL! Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Rab 14 Nov 94 11:19:18 Subject: Re: Tolkien UpdReq -=> Rab sent a message to Christeos Pir on 11 Nov 94 01:43:00 <=- -=> Re: Re: Tolkien <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Ra> I don't suppose that these old American deities have anything at all Ra> to do with the current state of affairs in the US ... with its Ra> extremely high rates of violent crime, murder, & mayhem? I'd think it has more to do with cultural and social (and economic) reasons. 'Sides, the Aztec were in Mexico. North America was home to hundreds of different native cultures, running the gamut from extremely fierce and martial to sedentary and peace-loving. I hardly think we can blame our messes on their deities. No, if I was going to pick a religion to blame ... nah, I won't get started. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... and the abyss of the great void was unfolded before me. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: JOSH NORTON 13 Nov 94 09:22:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Joseph Max <=- JM> In a very real way, Josh, I think that information IS power. And I JM> don't mean that in the political sense, but in the magickal. JM>As I've said before, I'm an engineer, a scientist if you will, by JM>profession. And I have a pragmatic, even skeptical turn of mind. I accept JM>that there are certain laws that govern the workings of the physical JM>universe that _cannot_ be circumvented without that physical universe JM>unraveling; the speed of light, for example, or the Second Law of JM>Thermodynamics. So the "energy" metaphor when used to describe the JM>application of magickal power is, to me, severely problematic. I can't JM>describe the theory of morphic fields in any way that defines such fields JM>as being energy of any sort comparable with electromagnetic vibration. JN> As a onetime "soft" scientist, I guess I'm more accustomed to living JN> with unavoidable ambiguities than you electron-herders and materiel- JN> manipulators. JN> I agree (for other reasons than yours) that the energy-model is JN> problematic. But it's hard to avoid since, to many (most?) of us, JN> magickal experiences _feel_ like some sort of energy flowing around. JN> Uranus "energy", for instance, often feels to me exactly like touching JN> a hot alternating current line. The energy analogy is useful for purposes of visualization and focus, I agree. In this way, it is like using sigils: it is symbolic in nature, but I think it's important to realize this, just as it is important not to confuse the sigil with what it represents. Otherwise, it will place unnecessary limits on what one's magick can do. Like most symbols, the energy analogy is a simplification of what is actually going on. I find it easier to accept that magick consists of a higher dimensional link between the subconscious and a given object that allows information to be exchanged and acted upon by either side of the link, than to believe in some sort of ectoplasmic force being radiated or recieved by my body. That I feel an "electrical" sensation does not force me to conclude that this link has anything to do with electricity; it's merely the body's way of interpreting the information in a manner that can be consciously understood. JN> One interesting thing is that in the one area where some sort of JN> objective component is possible, astrology, they find that JN> interactions of the "energies" of different planets behave as if they JN> were wave-forms (specifically, standing-waves) of different JN> frequencies intersecting in 3-D space. Interactions occur with JN> greatest intensity at specific angles of intersection. And while JN> approaching those angles, the observed effects show "peaks" and JN> "troughs", as if the wave-forms were sometimes reinforcing each other JN> and sometimes canceling each other out. I'm very ambivilent about astrology. There is nothing in my theories that allow for it to actually be magickal in nature. Again, the energy metaphor fails: the gravitational effect exerted by the body of the mother and anyone else in the room on a child's body when it is born far exceeds the gravitational influence of even the sun and moon on the newborn child, due to the "inverse cube" nature of gravitational force-vs-distance. Same for the magnetic fields of the planets - earth's magnetic field itself is unusually strong for a planet and is many millions of times more powerful than any such effects exerted by distant astronomical bodies. Again, to ascribe an energy model to astrology requires that we posit a form of energy that is undetectable by any physical means and does not obey any rules that are normally associated with any other kind of energy known to exist. If there's anything to it, I think that the planetary movements are like the hands of a clock: a clock does not "make" time exist, it merely allows us to mark duration and form some simbelence of simultaneous action. So in the same way, the planets do not "influence" earthly events per se, but due to "as above, so below" their motions allow us to see in them a higher pattern of reality. Any other way of looking at it is like saying that fire alarms cause fires. Similarly, the Zodiacal and Planetary symbologies are useful archtypical metaphors for the actions of the human psyche. This is astrology's greatest use, as I see it. JN> Seems to me that if we're going to sort out these things, we have to JN> ascribe to magickal "energies" at least three distinct aspects: JN> -- a "force" aspect: the whatever-it-is that we perceive as power when JN> it touches our awareness, and which sometimes behaves in ways roughly JN> analgous to physical wave-forms or vibrations. I go along with the first half or this statement, but have trouble with the second half. In energy models, "sometimes" isn't good enough . And it's behavior through space-time is most certainly _not_ like any form of energy (as in electromagnetic force), for it seems to move faster than light. Otherwise, why don't astrologers take into account the fact that the _percieved_ positions of the planets are not, in fact, where the planets actually _are_, because the light from them takes different time factors to reach us, and these factors constantly change with the distance variations that all planets are subject to, due to their eliptical orbits! There are just too many problems with the energy model for me to accept it as anything more than symbolism. With my "pure information" model, the information is recieved aetherically by the subconscious mind and percieved by the conscious mind in a manner that can be sensed, since sensory information is all that the conscious mind can deal with. And it is quite clear that the actions subconscious can have startling effects on the conscious mind's perceptions! JN> -- a qualitative aspect: the fact that magickal "energies" feel JN> different from each other in consistent ways and produce differing JN> effects on our consciousness. E.g. a Jupiter "energy" produces a sense JN> of expansion, largess, humor, paternalism, etc., in the perceiver, JN> while Mars produces a sense of power, aggressiveness, conflict, sexual JN> arousal, desire for physical activity, etc. No problem here. The aetheric-information transfer model (let's call it AIT for short - hey, I've invented an acronym!) I use easily accounts for this effect, and in fact, if this differentiation effect was _not_ noticed it would be evidence that the AIT model was incorrect. JN> -- an "information" aspect, which results in the appearance of JN> specific knowledge in the consciousness of the experiencing being. Again, the AIT model _demands_ that this occur. JN> Personally, I'm not certain that any of these have an intrinsic JN> connection, since they needn't appear simultaneously. Lumping them all JN> together, as we usually do, may be a mistake. Only if you have to switch models in order to account for all of them - basic scientific method. AIT accounts for all with no problem. The model's hypothesis can account for all the observed phenomena, which strictly speaking, elevates it from hypothesis to actual theory. JM> However, I perform Tarot readings that divine future events with (if I JM> may be allowed some immodesty) uncanny accuracy. It would be easy to JM> imagine that I am sensing "energy patterns" to accomplish this feat, JM> but if so, then said energy patterns must be travelling _backwards in JM> time_, or in effect, faster than the speed of light. I am convinced JM> that no form of energy can do this. So what, then, is doing this JM> travelling? JM> My answer: pure information. My magickal theory holds that pure JM> information can be exchanged between monadic entities as speeds that JM> circumvent the speed of light, and in so doing, circumvent both space JM> _and_ time constraints. JN> Hmmm. As an alternative to Bell's theorem, I would offer the JN> explanation that events have to work their way "downwards" through the JN> magickal planes before manifesting on the physical level. And this JN> process takes time to occur, in physical terms. (This is observably JN> true of the "mass" changes in ideas I was speaking of previously, and JN> seems as true for my own internal processes.) If someone were capable JN> of "picking up" on a particular event while it was still working its JN> way into manifestation, he would give the impression of predicting the JN> future without anything having to travel backwards in time. Fair enough, but in the end, we're _still_ talking about _information_ transfer, rather than _energy_ transfer. Kinda makes ya think, eh? ... Parallel lines of thought converge ... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: MARK KAMINS 13 Nov 94 09:22:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Quoting Mark Kamins to All <=- MK> I have seen a lot of chatter on the topic of Chaos magic lately MK> not only on this echo, but on several others as well. What I want MK> to know is ... MK> What is Chaos magick? Well, looks like it's time to post the Chaos Magick FAQ again: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Chaos Magick - Frequently Asked Questions Sheet version 0.9 (This FAQ sheet is currently under construction. Any suggested additions should be sent to ashton@netcom.com of max@slip.net - CHOYOFAQUE!) * * FAQ #1 - What is Chaos Magick? * * "The Lords of Chaos are the enemies of Logic, the jugglers of Truth, the molders of Beauty" - Hanafax from _The Knight of the Swords_ by Michael Moorcock --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chaos magick is one of the newest and currently most popular inspirations among modern-urban-techno-shamans. This is the cutting edge of ceremonial magick. It involves more spontaneity and attempts to integrate shamanism a little more directly. It is influenced by cyberpunk, modern physics, psychedelia, Freud and Jung (synchronicity), Austin Osman Spare, Chaos science, Taoism, Tibetan Buddhism, Thelema, many forms of shamanism, Gleick and fractals, and a host of writers - many of them science fiction writers. Chaos magick groups are usually small assembleges of peers, and the larger organizations tend to be wracked with schisms and break-ups. Some of the more or less stable groups still active include the Magical Pact of the IOT (founded by Peter Carroll), The AutonomatriX (an IOT splinter group), and The Process (formerly Thee Temple ov Psychick Youth ). Spare was not the first to practice this sort of magick, but he was the first to call it Chaos. He was one of the first to bring it to the ceremonial genre and therefore "legitimize" it. There is a direct connection between chaos and cyberpunk genres, and many if not most chaos mages have cyber connections. - AsHtOn tHe UnSuBtLe ashton@netcom.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Those who would rather therorize and mull over points of law; Those who slime their way through a degree system for status; Those who hoard their moldering secret initiation rituals; Those who only believe what The Order tells them; Those who have The One True Way ; Please do not bother the Chaotes ... For they are unsubtle and quick to laugh ... And their laughter is a most frightful weapon! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "...if you want a one-line definition with which most Chaoists would probably not disagree, then I offer the following. Chaoists usually accept the meta-belief that belief is a tool for achieving effects; it is not an end in itself." -- Peter Carroll January, 1992 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In Chaos Magic, beliefs are not seen as ends in themselves, but as tools for creating desired effects. To fully realize this is to face a terrible freedom in which Nothing is True and Everything is Permitted, which is to say that everything is possible, there are no certainties, and the consequences can be ghastly. Laughter seems to be the only defence against the realisation that one does not even have a real self. So welcome to the Kali Yuga of the Pandaemonaeon wherein nothing is true and everything is permissable. For in these post-absolutist days it is better to build upon the shifting sands than the rock which will confound you on the day it shatters. Philosophers have become no more than the keepers of useful sarcasms, for the secret is out that there is no secret of the universe. All is Chaos and evolution is going nowhere in particular. It is pure chance which rules the universe and thus, and only thus, is life good. We are born accidentally into a random world where only seeming causes lead to apparent effects, and very little is predetermined, thank Chaos. Reject then the obscenities of contrived uniformity, order and purpose. Turn and face the tidal wave of Chaos from which philosophers have been fleeing in terror for millennia. Leap in and come out surfing its crest, sporting amidst the limitless weirdness and mystery in all things, for those who reject false certainties. Thank Chaos we shall never exhaust it. Create, destroy, enjoy, IO CHAOS! - from _Liber Kaos_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Tyagi@HouseOfKaos.Abyss.com Subject: Chaotic Order I find it useful to mean by 'chaos' 'that in which does not appear the least hint of order', and by 'order', 'that in which does not appear the least hint of chaos'. The function of definition is the destruction of that which is defined. I see this as the True and Perfect Demon which the pseudo-Kaos-fokes want to put behind them in a swath of fear and loathing. These have abandoned the One True Way of Kaos. Beware! I do not choose to define 'chaos' except in relation to 'order', since otherwise the word becomes meaningless. You can make all kinds of fancy taonesses and university-in-diversitynesses and apply them all day, but it won't compare to the beauty which is absolute orderlessness, total absence of pattern. The ORdeR of K@s uNDeR SATaN (tokus) --------------------------------------------------------------------- * FAQ #2 - How does one become a Chaos Magician? --------------------------------------------------------------------- A Chaos Magickian is a verb. One who is not afraid to push the definitions into experience. One who has rejected restriction and the curse of the greyfaces. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Illuminates of Thanateros (IOT) are the magical heirs to the A:.A:. and the Zos Kia Cultis. Independent of ancient dusty books and archaic mystification, the vital elements of many traditions conspire in Chaos Magic to create a living art." - Peter Carroll, from _Liber Null_ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Some would say that anyone who takes up the magickal work as described in _Liber Null_ and has achieved personal initiation could be considered to belong to the "inner" IOT, as one who takes up the practice of Thelema and is self-initiated belongs to the "inner" A:.A:.. Carroll even refers to his own organization as the "outer Order" of the IOT. This outer Order has become The Magical Pact of the IOT, aka The Pact. They, of course, will likely profess to be _the_ one-and-only IOT; that anyone who is NOT a member of The Pact is NOT an Illuminate of Thnanteros, just as the various groups who have called themselves the A:.A:. over the years have done. - Joseph Max, from _Malleus Chaosium_ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ashton@netcom.com [rant on] I hereby stick my head out of the trenches and declare WAR! The IOT seems to have more excommunicants than useful members. The AX just lost a front man. TOPY declared and lost the info war years ago. Who is in charge here? YOU ARE! It seems as if the world will be owned by the rogues ... We want to do the work ... Not wait for the members to allow us to work. Not wait for the heirarchy to allow us to work. NOT WAIT! We want to do the work NOW! And we will WORK ... and we will support the cost of working ... and we will take the consequenses of working ... and we will rise to work again ... and we will be made stonger by the WORK! My WORK is to gather data and publish ... if it can help in your work, so much the better ... if you would like to conspire, so much the better ... If your work is to rest on your laurels ... then, please, go join an order, and GET OUT OF MY WAY! [rant off] There is death for the dogs ... AShtoN the UnSubtle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Chaos Magic is open to all beings who have answered the call of chaos. We do not care what organizations you have chosen to give legitimacy to, What degrees you have earned, or What you might have once been. We want to share the work of you, now, here. A system that acquires more degrees of freedom is more chaotic. Which sounds like a worthy goal ... Entropy is having fewer degrees of freedom, approaching a steady state, having less energy. Which sounds quite gastly ... This is a working group! We are banded together by doing the great work of magick and have joined here to hasten the pandamonaeon! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- * FAQ #3 - Are there any organized Chaos Magick Groups? (The answer depends on your definitions of "Chaos Magick" and "organized"!) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Pact: -------- The Magical Pact of the Illuminates of Thnanteros has manifested as a series of religio-magio Temples for the serious student. .... Our planet and conceptual universe is rapidly changing and by all apparent indications would appear to be rapidly approaching critical mass. A new order of magicians has emerged which are assisting in the creation and establishment of a new civilization. ...The IOT has developed the magic which can redesign the human selves into an Illuminated Magical Being (IMB) in spite of the natural resistance of the ego and internal environment Our order has pledged itself to the reconstitution of magic based upon self-empowerment and service to humanity in preparation of the New Aeonic Renaissance and it's association with the Great White Brotherhood as Illuminated Ones. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The AutonomatriX: The AutonomatriX is a networking chaos magic guild of those striving to discover and rejuvenate magical ideas and technical skills with success as the only key to validation. We do not discriminate on the basis of lifestyle, gender, affiliation, race, or sexuality. We seek to interact with creative magicians who are pushing boundaries instead of being trapped by them. We are a guild composed of working craftspeople, whereas an order/lodge/clique is generally an exclusive membership of supplicants. The time of centralized info-banks is at an end; the nature of "classified" or "secret" information is that it is more often limiting than useful to the collector, and only profitable to the banker of such media. Hierarchical structures are unnecessary and undesired; checks and balances regarding membership are determined by an individual's interaction with the rest of the group rather than personal prejudices or acceptance for any member by any other member. The principles "sink or swim" and "(inter)action equals life" are applicable to this magical guild, as in any network. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Process: (Heirs to TOPY) (The Process is currently working on re-organisation. This is from a preliminary broadsheet from Transmedia Foundation:) In reality, we are aspiring to expose and reveal the core nature and means of operation of the mass media and societal manipulation, and propose and experimant with softwares both digital and psychic that reveal and/or protect us from the most damaging or hypocritical aspects of them. The rrot idea is the integration of every aspect and possibility of Culture and L-IF-E; it is an inclusive process and a way of living. In a very real sense it should mean _pointing in every direction simulataneously_. ___------------------------------------------------------------------------- CONTACTS AutonomatriX POB 26362 San Francisco CA 94126. "A Chaotick Guild and WorkNet of Chaotes" Publication: Kallisti Catalyst. (magazine) Illuminati MC Intl POB 9490 Tacoma WA 98409 The Magical Pact Of The Illuminates of Thanateros POB 619 Huntington Beach CA 92648. Publications: _Pseudonomicon_ and _Prime Chaos_ by Phil Hine The Process - Transmedia Foundation P.O.Box 1034, Occidental CA 95465 Thought Crime 23 POB 874 Temple AZ 85281 TOPY US (Luna) POB 111327 Tacoma WA 98411-1327. or POB 460473 San Francisco CA 94146 Publication: Thee Psychick Bible TOPY World Nett-work POB 687 Halfway Sheffield S31 5UX UK. Publications: Occulture (L3) and Infernal Templer. Virus 23 Box 46 Red Deer AB T4N 5E7 Canada. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ... "One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star..." ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Helrunar Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 16 Nov 94 10:14:34 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law! Hi, sorry for buting in but I have a question and I dont know didly about this stuff so its probably gona make you laugh. >> Love is the law (Law = Legis = Lamed-Gimel-Samekh = 93), >> love under will (Will = Vav-Yod-Lamed-Lamed = 73 = Chokhmah) If Will=73 then why do we always say 93 93/93 ? Love is the law, love under will. Frater Helrunar 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Helrunar 16 Nov 94 11:23:36 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Hi, sorry for buting in but I have a question and I dont know didly > about this stuff so its probably gona make you laugh. No such thing as butting in on a public echo! ;> I don't know jack about any of it either, so if I laugh, you can laugh right back at me...heheheh, I enumerated incorrectly in public and wsa publicly corrected twice behind it, so you *might* want to ask someone else about Things Gematric if'n you want an intelligent answer. ;> >>> Love is the law (Law = Legis = Lamed-Gimel-Samekh = 93), >>> love under will (Will = Vav-Yod-Lamed-Lamed = 73 = Chokhmah) > > If Will=73 then why do we always say 93 93/93 ? Well, first off, CP was translating the word 'Will' into Hebrew characters while still using the English Vau-Yod-Lamed-Lamed, would be WILL. I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't know what 'Will' would be translated as in Hebrew or Greek...though in Sanskrit, I'd tend to call it 'Dharma.' ;> Synchronistically, Legis, which is a Latin word, also enumerates to 93, but the '93 words' for 'Love' and 'Will' that we traditionally use are Agape and Thelema, which are Greek, and enumerate to '93' using Greek Gematria. It's my undertanding that 93 93/93 at the end of a post/letter/etc. is because Love is the Law, love under will; and that's Love, love, and will , rather than Agape, Legis, and Thelema...although that'd work too, fer-sher! Pretty soon, you can teach *me* how all this Gematria 101 schtuff works...I'm a total dunce at it, which is why I'm concentrating a bit on it at the moment. :/ Love is the Law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Chris Stoudt 16 Nov 94 12:31:14 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > No... I AM GUILTY AS CHARGED! hehe... I got my handle from Tolkien's Lord > of the Rings... Shadowfax (as it is in the book) is Gandalf magical horse. > I split into two words for because a lot of boards want first and > last names. Ahhh, so ka! I had visions of DarkSide Magick rituals being enacted via FAX machines, stead of over the nets...hehehe. ;> Fraid I'm as much of a Tolkien dunce as I am a Gematria dunce; possibly moreso. > I do have many names that I use in my book that I plan to finish andpublish > ONE DECADE! :) I have one name that I really like but don't want to change > almost for the same reasons as you. Plus Im sorta attached to Shadow > Fax... :) Kewl. ;> I'm collaborating with a local doctor on a n-f self-help book-length manuscript at the moment. I really dislike the work, and now that my printer is broken, I have an excuse to screw off for just a *bit* longer. When the money once again runs out, I'll buckle down. }:D I also have plans to pitch a b-l-ms to an 'occult' publisher, but in the interests of tricky self-discipline, have denied myself permission to do so much as prepare an outline till the #%$#@#! "self-help" manuscript is completed in first-draft state. ;> Good luck 2U! :> Love is the Law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Rab 16 Nov 94 12:45:06 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > The Pope has said that the BVM (Mary) is indeed the most easily accessed > figure, and has a special relationship with the faithful masses. Most interesting! Did the Pope speculate on why this might be so? Kind of a universal Mother thang? If this is the reasoning, it'd seem a bit odd that YHVH--as far as I know--has *never* appeared to faithful masses; wouldn't God-the-Father be just as likely to want to interact with his children as Mary-the-Mother? Have you heard of any reports of the Holy Spirit appearing visibly in some shape or form; or has it traditionally been more of a _sakthipat_ kind of experience, ie, the descent of power as inner experience? > cults, chivalry, and the Grail legends. (The goddess often looms large in > this social role in many cultures). The appearance of male figures,such as > Jesus, are just as frequent but tend to be associated more with individual > rather than mass experience, and are not bruted about as much. Has there been Speculation from on High about this kinda phenomena? Hmmm...it *might* make sense to say that because God and Jesus are actually Divine, whereas Mary is entirely human, albeit 'Blessed,' that she's more likely to interact directly with other human beings...but from what little I know, it seems that apparitions of human 'Saints' are much more frequently feminine than masculine, and the saints are also human-though-blessed. > Could be dangerous. It's okay for a bunch of people to see a vision, (safety > in numbers), but a lone vision can be suspect. The individual might be > going mad! Heh. Yet some of the lone visionaries are transformed into saints, and then get to appear to the faithful themselves...divine madness vs. garden-variety madness, perhaps? ;> I wonder how the delineation is made? > Jesus=Self/Individuation; Mary=Soul/Socialisation. Aha! ;> Y'know, I think I *almost* 'get' it. Love is the Law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Chris Stoudt Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 17 Nov 94 19:16:04 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Rose babbled this to Chris RD>Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> RD> > No... I AM GUILTY AS CHARGED! hehe... I got my handle from RD> > Tolkien's Lord of the Rings... Shadowfax (as it is in the book) is RD> > Gandalf magical horse. I split into two words for because a lot of RD> > boards want first and last names. RD> RD>Ahhh, so ka! I had visions of DarkSide Magick rituals being RD>enacted via FAX machines, stead of over the nets...hehehe. RD> ;> Fraid I'm as much of a Tolkien dunce as I am a RD>Gematria dunce; possibly moreso. hehe yeah I have thought about that with the fax machine! :) As have others as well that have asked me about my handle... RD>Kewl. ;> I'm collaborating with a local doctor on a n-f self-help RD> book-length manuscript at the moment. I really dislike the RD>work, and now that my printer is broken, I have an excuse RD>to screw off for just a *bit* longer. When the money once RD>again runs out, I'll buckle down. }:D I also have plans MAke u a deal.. U buy mine and I'll buy yours?! ok? :) I have been lazy too... been writing this book for about 4 years OFF and ON but not that I recently moved to LA and graduated from college I need to buckle down and get this book out... especially if I want it to be a series! :) l8r... ...Shadow Fax... ___ X CMPQwk #1.4X UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Wild Hunter Area: MagickNet To: Merlin 17 Nov 94 22:01:00 Subject: Jesus UpdReq Heilsa, Merlin! 12 Nov 94 07:14, Merlin wrote to Rose Dawn: M> Well, Oral Roberts saw a 90' Jesus! Not to mention pink elephants. Ves Heil, Wild Hunter ... Excuse me. I think I was born here by accident. Which way is out? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Rab 16 Nov 94 15:35:00 Subject: Chaos UpdReq JN> Heh. True. I'm wondering when someone's going to start working on JN> Russian mythology -- now that's REALLY depressing! R> I don't know much Russian myth, but certain aspects have inspired artists R> before (e.g. Stravinsky & The Firebird). I was thinking more along the lines of Baba Yaga, or what's-his-name -- the spirit who kidnapped beautiful princesses to torment. R> And as far as non-Slavic Russian myth goes, there's the original Siberian R> shamanism, some of which has found its way into AmerIndian traditions, R> most noticeably in the far northwest. (Some would say ALL New World R> aboriginal traditions derive from Siberia). So perhaps to some extent R> anyone who works with AmerIndian myth is also dealing with Russian. R> At least some deep links do exist. Given that most of the migration was 10,000-20,000 years ago, it'd have to be a REALLY deep link. Except perhaps in the case of the Inuits, who've been floating around the Arctic Circle without much respect for lines on the maps. Though I admit that the social organization of the Incas bore a strange resemblance to Russian communism. ;-> R> Along the northwest coast, Yukon, Alaska, there are some striking R> similarities with Mongol & Siberian myths. eg Thunderbird. R> One anthropologist R> has been working on a theory that among Athapaskans there are traces of R> refugees who fled Genghis Khan in the 12th C. R> Hmmm. I recall theories a few years ago that a fleet of Chinese exploratory vessels got marooned on the west coast, and left some marks of their culture in the local tribes. But those were supposed to be from a century or two later than Khan. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 16 Nov 94 17:43:02 Subject: chaos UpdReq JN> Heh. Sure it's OK -- this is public discussion, ain't it? Don't think JN> it's possible to copyright a net-message... KM> And if you could, I'm not sure how you'd enforce the KM> copyright. Stuff that exists electronically can be KM> reproduced *far* faster than you could ever bust the KM> "perpetrators." Personally, I don't find it too bothersome. The only thing I care about is that nobody else is making a profit off of my work when I'm not doing so. AFAIK, nobody's charging anyone for copies of my net-messages. In the electronic versions of my papers and articles, I put in a copyright notice saying they can be freely copied and distributed by anyone EXCEPT commercial entities, so long as no fee is charged for the copies. Plagiarism is another matter...but I haven't encountered that yet. JN> Coyote and Roadrunner always remind me of Job, for some reason, with JN> Coyote in the role of the long-suffering worshiper, and RR as the JN> nasty-minded YHVH. KM> You know, that almost fits. Except that I tend to see KM> the *writers* more in the Yahweh role; the Runner is just KM> put there to give him a target. Haw! You're right. In fact, I recall one cartoon where exactly that happened -- the artist kept redrawing things whenever coyote got too close to succeeding. Saw somthing similar in a Bugs Bunny cartoon as well. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Rab 16 Nov 94 17:32:04 Subject: Chaos UpdReq -=> Quoting Josh Norton to Joseph Max <=- JN> Hmmm. As an alternative to Bell's theorem, I would offer the JN> explanation that events have to work their way "downwards" through the JN> magickal planes before manifesting on the physical level. And this JN> process takes time to occur, in physical terms. [ ... ] JN> If someone were capable of "picking up" on a particular event while it JN> was still working its way into manifestation, he would give the JN> impression of predicting the future without anything having to travel JN> backwards in time. R> But if one were picking up an event in process of manifesting, i.e. that R> has not yet happened, the message would be about a trend or probability. R> The trend is subject to modification and the exact form of R> its concretisation may be R> may be unforeseeable. (As TS Eliot said, betwixt thought and act falls the R> shadow). Some impulses do, however, ultimately manifest as intended, so R> some predictions can be accurate. Especially if these same predictions (or R> the predictor) assist the outcome. I'm not sure how your comment bears on mine -- maybe I'm a bit fuzzy today. Are you agreeing with me, disagreeing, or expanding on it? In any case, at what point in its descent it ceases to be a probability and becomes an event is subject to interpretation, especially where human beings are involved. Even an unconscious decision on some person's part can make an event near-certain, even though he may not act on that decision for a while. If I may speak cabalistically, I'd say that anything that gets down as far as Netzach is "real" and "concrete" in some sense. Certainly anything that reaches the intellectual level of Hod is. Much of my own work has focused on such manifestations, with the eventual physical manifestation -- e.g., an article or paper -- being no more than an anchor. ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ain Soph Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 8 Nov 94 07:20:18 Subject: CHAOS 1/ UpdReq Hello Christeos! Monday October 31 1994 22:56, Christeos Pir wrote to Rose Dawn: CP> Paul can print them out for me, but I don't know if he can _convert_ CP> them. I don't have a way to convert these. (off-topic ON) uhm .. i have at least two programs for this purpose .. one is called MAC-IN-DOS and one is called MACDISK .. both are shareware and should be easy to find .. note that a PC drive can only read HD MAC floppies, not DD .. (off-topic OFF) #include "std.excuse.to.moderator.H" ;) .. Ain Soph 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: TONY IANNOTTI 16 Nov 94 06:46:10 Subject: nam signa coeli ultima.. UpdReq -> R> No money right now...wonder if there's a way to transfer it over -> R> to Immortal Coil? (Nin, you readin' this?) -> -> It is available for freq'ing, and I am trying to send it directly -> type, but the Immortal Coil is busy at the mo ment. But it'll get the -> way or the other. -> 'Preeshate it! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: SAMUEL WAGAR 16 Nov 94 06:51:38 Subject: Seeking Info... UpdReq You may be sick of the question, but may I ask if you're the Samuel Wagar who ran for the Canadian Parliament? And if so, can you pop over onto Burning Times and give us an update one day? No one seems sure what happened after the original fracas. Bright blessings! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718