From: Andrew Hotopp Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 13 Oct 94 18:57:34 Subject: cool UpdReq hey man, I was just wondering If you had ever heard of Shiloh Church? They rule. They have this one song called I am a VIking.It rules.You have a real cool name. Where are you from? I am from Iowa. later dude. - Pedit Ver 2.2 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Hotopp Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 13 Oct 94 19:01:40 Subject: CHAOS UpdReq Cool. I am new to this kind of stuff. Who is This puppy group? I ain't ne'er heard of them. I like White Zombie and Suicidal Tendencies, as well as some rap. later man. - Pedit Ver 2.2 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Hotopp Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 13 Oct 94 19:07:14 Subject: tell us tell us UpdReq On <04 Oct, 17:19>, Kai Mactane wrote to Chris L Crane : KM> -> Ygr'th na Chris L Crane zwan All ngah'wlaq KM> -> r'hylth More on money magick, n'qah? KM> KM> CLC> There has been quite an extensive study recently in this echo KM> CLC> concerning the subject of money magick. I've loved every message, KM> yet KM> CLC> there's something thats been missing throughout the KM> CLC> discussion.. and that's more examples of actual rituals, KM> CLC> spells, etc. that are used for this subject/purpose.... KM> [etc.] KM> KM> If you missed my or Joseph Max's posts detailing our methods, I'd be KM> happy to re-post mine, and I doubt Mr. Max would have any problem with KM> doing likewise. KM> KM> --Kai Mactane Please do so. I am extremely interested in this subject. oh yeah, what is it? - Pedit Ver 2.2 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 13 Oct 94 11:17:00 Subject: Re: magick versus religi UpdReq Thus said Joseph Max to Grendel Grettisson concerning Re: magick versus religio: Hi Joseph! JM> As for John Dee - I would take exception to calling him a mage. JM> Perhaps Josh Norton can back me up or correct me on this, but as I JM> understand it, there's no record of Dee having done any magickal JM> _work_. He cronicled what Kelly scryed, and tried to drag it into a JM> coherent structure, but he was more a "speculative" than an "operative" JM> magician, to use the old Masonic expression. That's why he worked with JM> Kelly, whom he found rather distastful, in the first place - Dee JM> couldn't channel a spirit to save his life! All he did was astrology, JM> and any good mathematician can handle that. Kelly, on the other hand... JM> Dee's diaries mention him doing some "ill-advised" magic and alchemy on JM> his own, but I wouldn't hold Kelly up as a glowing example of a JM> religious magician! Dee didn't consider himself to be a magician, and denied it on many occasions. He wanted to distinguish himself from the many other "magicians" in England at the time. Most of these were concerned with summoning demons (Sir Walter Raleigh dabbled in this) or with producing physical effects, neither of which Dee cared about. But as a matter of _practice_, I believe he fits the bill well enough. It true there's no record of his having used the Enochian system itself, but the workings in which he received that system certainly qualify as magickal. In his work with Kelly, the method used was that Dee did the invocations and Kelly scryed to see what appeared in response. Dee believed that his invocations were only "fervent Christian prayer". But, looking at the few extant samples, the only difference I can see from magickal invocations of the time was that Dee _requested_ the spirits to appear rather than commanding them. This isn't significant, IMO; I do the same thing myself. JM> On the surface, one had no choice but to profess Christianity in those JM> days. Dee called the Enochian entities "Angels", though the entities JM> never used the term - there's not even an Enochian word for "angel". He JM> _had_ to try to put a facade of Christianity on what they were doing or JM> he and Kelly would have surely been hanged as witches. If you read Causobon's "A True Relation..." I think you'll find that Dee's Christianity was anything but superficial lip-service. One has to remember that Elizabethan folks saw no conflict in being rational towards the "natural" world and hyper-religious towards the spiritual. Their world-view had the two as completely separate realms, each with their own rules. (Dee's view of the matter follows the three-worlds model of Agrippa. For a good explanation, take a look at Tyson's notes on the subject in the Llewellyn edition of Agrippa's "Three Books of Occult Philosophy".) Kelly was also steeped in Christianity though, like Christopher Marlowe, he flip-flopped between being a good son of the Church and a Satanic rebel. At no time would he ever have been considered an agnostic, atheist, or pagan. The fellow seems to me to have been a rather miserable soul, feeling limited by the constraints of religious custom but unable to free himself from them, living in fear of the real and imagined consequences of doing so. And in fact, their mutual insistence on fitting everything into a Christian framework was a definite hindrance throughout the period when the Calls, Tablets, and Aethyrs were being presented to them. Whenever the angels said something that didn't fit Christian dogma, Dee and Kelly both went into a panic, worrying about whether they were contacting false spirits, wondering whether they should cut off contact, etc. I often wonder what they would have gotten had either of them been capable of taking a truly dispassionate approach to the work. Whether the Enochian beings ever called themselves angels: The whole enochian working was under the auspices of the archangels Raphael, Uriel, etc, who appeared in person. Dee and Kelly encountered beings who were specifically said to be their personal "angels". Laycock's dictionary lists many names of angels they encountered, but most of these come from parts of Dee's records I haven't seen, so I can't say whether they actually identified themselves as such. However, the Enochian entities did frequently (and still do, to me) call themselves "ministers of God"; in the Elizabethan context, this is just a fancy way of saying "angel". Enochian has the word "Noco" (plural "noquodi") for "minister", though it applies as well to humans as to angels. The record also includes the names of four groups of beings specifically identified as being angelic in character: Lang -- "ministering angels" Luah or Luach -- "praising angels" Sach -- "confirming angels" Urch -- "confounding angels" ... Random bombing should do the trick. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718