From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 6 Oct 94 12:58:26 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Funny, my experience is pretty much the same as yours, yet I keep > hearing scare stories about fundie Thelemites. [shrug] I don't think there are all that many of em...FAR fewer than most groups that get fundies, I'd say! My guess is that the entire idea of Thelema is so completely anathema to the 'fundie' mindset, that those few one does run into stand out even more. I have run into a couple people I'd describe that way, and they've been extremely vocal. I just don't obsess on the matter, since the vast majority of people I've come into personal contact with--face-to-face, via phone, or on the nets...don't fit the description. Why stress on it? There is no grace, there is no guilt, this is the Law: DO WHAT THOU WILT. So ka? So ka! ;> > Hey, waitaminit! I LIKE Skinny Puppy. Not as much as Thrill Kill Kult, > but still. If you *really* like em, you're not a poser, so no prob! ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Morgan Le Fey Area: MagickNet To: RAINLAKE 5 Oct 94 16:12:00 Subject: Medical quandary... UpdReq R>-> Good luck 2u, but don't negate the possibilities available thru magic R>-> well as more 'traditional' means> for improving your health and your R>-> financial status. :> R>Oh, I don't, and never said I did, most esp. not with the money (see my R>money spell, posted elsewhere in this echo. I am WELL stocked with R>green candles and money-chants!!) R>But one complicator with the health side *for me* is that nearly all R>magick boosts the magician's immune system at least somewhat; that may R>not be the particular spell's intent (may even be its opposite, in R>fact), but *the magickal process itself*, like most brainwave-altering R>disciplines, usually does do so to some degree. (If you're skeptical, R>there's some very interesting medical research on the subject.) And I R>have an autoimmune disease...my immune system needs suppressing, not R>boosting. An interesting quandary! Any suggestions? Interesting... I have the same quandary plus some... I have Crohn's disease which is an autoimmune disease much like lupus but it affects the G.I. tract. But another thing I have to contend with is the fact that the magical process itself, as you put it, does alter brain waves and I am an epileptic. Sometimes ritual can send me into migraines and seizures... however, my magick is important to me and I want to learn how to use the magicks to stop the seizures and migraines. Any suggestions? Bright blessings, Morgan R>Good luck to you, too. R>--- Courtesy of Silver Xpress R> * Origin: PODS - Immortal Coil BBS (502)636-5595 (93:9187/7) R>R> 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: GRENDEL GRETTISSON 5 Oct 94 09:52:00 Subject: Re: MAGICK VERSUS RELIGIO UpdReq -=> Quoting Grendel Grettisson to Joseph Max <=- JM> GG> I guess all those Hermetic magicians have been wrong for centuries JM> GG> since they don't fit your catagory above. JM> JM> They most certainly do. To discover one's true Will, by the Knowledge and JM> Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel - the Divine Genius, JM> and to make it manifest has ever been the goal of the hermetic JM> magician. GG> Not necessarily. It has been a goal for most of those in the last 100 GG> years. There are plenty of Renaissance and Elizebethian magi who did GG> not seem to have this as a goal. For example, John Dee. Definately a GG> mage, definately Hermetic but also definately believing in a higher GG> power (which your claim that magicians don't started this discussion). I said that for the magician, "... there is no higher power, no loftier goal, than to do one's Will in the world." I didn't mean this to say that there was no Higher Power (capitals) however one wishes to interpret that -- as self-conscious spiritual entity(s) with greater "wisdom" or consciousness than humans, or the simple expression of the Divine Genius in oneself. I have my own personal interpretation, as do you -- we've thrashed this one out before. A poor choice of expression on my part -- I should have used "greater power", as in the power derived from magickal work, and avoided pushing one of your buttons . For I hold that when one does one's True Will, and _only_ one's True Will in the world, then one has infinite magickal power available to do that Will. But even your interpretation does express my personal feelings - the highest spiritual power possible in the universe is that of the Illuminated Wo/Man, master of hir own Universe. Feel free to disagree. I'm sure you do . As for John Dee - I would take exception to calling him a mage. Perhaps Josh Norton can back me up or correct me on this, but as I understand it, there's no record of Dee having done any magickal _work_. He cronicled what Kelly scryed, and tried to drag it into a coherent structure, but he was more a "speculative" than an "operative" magician, to use the old Masonic expression. That's why he worked with Kelly, whom he found rather distastful, in the first place - Dee couldn't channel a spirit to save his life! All he did was astrology, and any good mathematician can handle that. Kelly, on the other hand... Dee's diaries mention him doing some "ill-advised" magic and alchemy on his own, but I wouldn't hold Kelly up as a glowing example of a religious magician! On the surface, one had no choice but to profess Christianity in those days. Dee called the Enochian entities "Angels", though the entities never used the term - there's not even an Enochian word for "angel". He _had_ to try to put a facade of Christianity on what they were doing or he and Kelly would have surely been hanged as witches. GG> Personally, I don't disagree with seeking one's divine genius as a GG> goal. I have a certain quest for personal gnosis but I don't think it GG> is a requirement for one to be a magician. One can have a lot of personal agendas for magickal work - from healing the cow to getting laid to communing with God. But stripped of all other considerations _but_ the Great Work of Magick itself, I stand by my original statement. "The True Self is the meaning of the True Will: know Thyself through Thy Way. Calulate well the formula of Thy Way. Create freely; absorb joyusly; divide intently; consolidate completely. Work Thou Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, in and for Eternity." - Aliester Crowley, "The Magician" from _The Book Of Thoth_ ... It takes a long time to understand nothing ... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: GRENDEL GRETTISSON 5 Oct 94 09:52:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Quoting Grendel Grettisson to Joseph Max <=- GG> * Replying to a message originally to ROSE DAWN on 09-29-94 JM> The older entrenched members tend to hoard the "secrets" of the JM> order, whose very existence requires strict adherence to "The Way JM> It's Supposed To Be Done ". If members of a magickal organization JM> were expected to create their own magickal operations and JM> experimentation was considered the key to magickal development, rather JM> than "passing down the wisdom of the ancients", JM> there would be much need for secrets of the Order, now would there? GG> This is exactly the kind of "secrets" that the order that I am in GG> keeps. People within the order have been doing research and work in a GG> number of areas, often for years as part of their personal work. Some GG> found some interesting techniques or ways of working but don't really GG> want them sold to the general public, mainly because they feel people GG> wouldn't understand them without some of the background material and GG> hard work (which most people seem unwilling to do). So what? All that means is that they've set themselves up a the latest batch of "Ancient Ascended Holy White Brotherhood of the Invisible Grand Illuminated Masters". If they're of no use without deeper understanding, and they don't understand them, what does it matter? I have yet to find anyone who can dispute this logic. There are only a few logical (however fractured the logic may be) reasons for a person or an organisation to withhold "occult secrets", most of which hold water like a sieve. 1. To profit financially in some way by them, as in publishing rights. Logical, but how very mundane. Ethically defensible if admitted to up front. But the intention is not to keep them as secrets forever, or only for the "chosen elect". 2. To use them as a lure to attract and enthrall followers, with varying degrees of sychopantic structure built in. As such it matters not if the "secrets" are mere rehashes of knowledge available elsewhere, are original ideas or even utter bullshit. In fact, the more bullshit-like the "secrets" are, the more likely (and advantageous) the whole secret knowledge racket is for the "elite". The sheep don't find out until they have this "knowledge" revealed to them, and after going through the hazing process, they will be loth to declare the Emporer to have no clothes even if he's obviously buck-ass naked. They've become one of the "elect", they've worked hard for it, and their not about to blow the whistle on the scam when it's _their_ turn to run it and now they can have so much fun lording it over on the new plebes. 3. The fact that the "secret" knowledge is no big deal anyway (see "The Book Of Coming Forth By Night") and holding it up to outside inspection and critique will only result in the derision it probably deserves. It would then be unavailable (and useless) for the purpose detailed in #2. 4. That the "secret knowledge" is "dangerous to the uninitiated" . I'll dispose of this one in two parts. First of all, dangerous how? I've heard of very few cases where the neophyte reads the forbidden knowledge and hir head explodes. Or that a profane discovers a grimoire that enables them to (tah-duh!) RULE THE WORLD! Maybe in the comics, but not out here in the trenches. Secondly, if that is meant to mean dangerous to _themselves_, as in likely to promote a psychotic reaction, I submit that such a person will find something to have a psychotic reaction to anyway -- probably do what most of them do and get it out of the Christian Bible. Since this is obvious to anyone with half of a brain, I tend to dismiss protestations of such "danger" as mere cover ups for (again) the purpose detailed in #2. So when it comes down to it, there IS no other reason besides reason #2, and I find that reason to be offensive, oppressive, and generally reprehensible. And there's very little that can convince me that any operators of a "secret occult order" have any other ultimate purpose _but_ reason #2, whether they admit it or not, _even to themselves_. GG> So, what they do is teach some of this stuff as grade material or as GG> part of side orders, ^^^^^^^^^^^ "Hey, I'll take some occult wisdom with a side order of secret knowledge sauce..." GG> ...thus keeping a little bit better control "Ve must keepen der kontrol ov zee underleengs..." GG> on the learning of these "secrets" and their development. You don't GG> expect every think-tank or lab to give their techniques to the world GG> when they're using them for resarch. But you're not using them for research, you're using them as a reward for the faithful. A commercial research organisation has a different agenda - making a commercial profit. Is that your goal? A scientific research effort is always intends to publish someday, and the main reason for holding back is assure credit where credit is due - again for financial reasons (as in tenure or patents.) Is _that_ your goal? And in both cases they know that the research will become common knowledge eventually when published. Sorry, your rationale is still leaking like a spaghetti strainer. GG> I feel that same about techniques developed internally in magical GG> groups. I'm afraid the only non-magickal groups with the same agenda would be such gatherings of illuminates as the CIA, the KGB, and the Mafia... Hey, go ahead and have a "grade system" in an organisation and dispense all the degrees you want. But if you hold "occult secrets" back, _especially_ from those you've admitted to the group, you're instantly suspect of having reason #2 as the real, hidden agenda. A person who's studying to be a lawyer or a doctor has to pass a degree system, by actual testing and experience, but they aren't locked out of the law or medical libraries until the "leaders" deign to allow them access. Heck, *I* can go to a law library and read anything I want. Without training it's probably useless to me, but I don't have to kiss anyone's ass to get in and decide for myself. Otherwise, it's despotism, pure and simple. All you seem to be doing is promoting reason #2, dressed up in benign "we know what's good for you" language. The Waffen SS used the same excuse. Do you like the company you're in? Probably not. I'm not really comparing you to them, but then _why use their methods and excuses?_ Only possible answers: Sheer stupiduty or reason #2. The prosecution rests... for now... ... Reality-ometer: [\........] Hmmph! Thought so... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: EAGLESTAR 5 Oct 94 09:52:00 Subject: Re: MONEY MAGICK UpdReq -=> Quoting Eaglestar to Joseph Max <=- Ea> The Adoration of Money Ea> A Rite of Blue Magick Ea> Ea> [Sniped, but save!] Ea> Ea> Thank you very much! Ea> We will be doing this ritual on the New Moon this week. You're welcome -- may it be successful for you! I would love to hear about it if your get any manifest effects. The performence of this rite corrosponded with my getting a new job after months of unemployment. Another of the participants had a grant from her college come thru after she had almost given up on it (hers was the _last_ application approved before the cut-off for the year, she found out later!) I hope it helps you as well as it did for me! May Jupiter smile upon you! - J:.M:.555 ... Drive no faster than your guardian angel can fly! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fr. D.E.U. Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 9 Oct 94 03:32:04 Subject: Re: More on money magick UpdReq -=> Quoting Kai Mactane to Chris L Crane <=- KM> If you missed my or Joseph Max's posts detailing our methods, I'd KM> be happy to re-post mine, and I doubt Mr. Max would have any problem KM> with doing likewise. I would like to see both yours and Joseph Max's posting on Money Rituals. Thanks. In LVX Fr. D.E.U. ... Go straight to the docs. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andrew Hotopp Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 10 Oct 94 15:33:20 Subject: Answer UpdReq Well, I picked you because you seemed to know a lot and you had a cool name. I was wondering how I could start out being a magic user. Magic is pretty cool. Later dude. - Pedit Ver 2.2 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 9 Oct 94 02:22:00 Subject: Re: REPLY, PART ONE UpdReq -> or comment of yours, on Sex Magick and Tantra, but I think the post o -> S-Magick got lost in the aethyrs or something--you might wanna scan t -> Tantra echo if yer still interested!> ;> Of course. Hungry bandwidth-dybbuks should be taught their places. -> -> Jupiter seems to do double-duty for me. ;> Maybe you should oughta -> in some sky-blue candles? ;> Hadn't thought of that. Good idea. -> -> Hmmm...bottle of Prednisone on the altar? I wish. Steroids at any dosage are out...I'm a recovering alcoholic, and we often don't react to them the same as you civilians. -> is something of a quandary. Not that I'm skeptical per se, but I'm *a -> on the lookout for interesting medical research...if you could steer When I'm well enough to dig thru books/journals, I'll try. -> neurologist sez that 'one theory' stipulates a very similar auto-immu -> reaction--demyalination as an effect of immune system overdrive, so t Interesting. I'll run that by my rheumatologist...sounds like something she was investigating. My illness involves bad and "touchy" muscle inflammation and extremely easy exhaustion, and nearly all the asanas are outside the line where I get worse for several days. Can't do tai chi anymore, either. IT SUX ROX. I do some extremely gentle exercises the rheumatologist designs for me, and that 's subject to frequent review as to whether I continue them. Thanks. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: MORGAN LE FEY 9 Oct 94 02:25:26 Subject: Medical quandary... UpdReq -> Interesting... I have the same quandary plus some... I have -> Crohn's disease which is an autoimmune disease much like lupus but it -> affects the G.I. tract. But another thing I have to contend with is t -> fact that the magical process itself, as you put it, does alter brain -> waves and I am an epileptic. Sometimes ritual can send me into migrai -> and seizures... however, my magick is important to me and I want to -> learn how to use the magicks to stop the seizures and migraines. I'm an herbalist, so I think I can help with the migraines. About the seizures, let me do some thinking and reading and get back to you...not up to writing much tonight. I know Crohn's is a real stinker. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 10 Oct 94 01:13:00 Subject: MAGICK VERSUS RELIGIO UpdReq JM> As for John Dee - I would take exception to calling him a mage. JM> Perhaps Josh Norton can back me up or correct me on this, but as I JM> understand it, there's no record of Dee having done any magickal _work_. JM> He cronicled what Kelly scryed, and tried to drag it into a coherent JM> structure, but he was more a "speculative" than an "operative" magician, JM> to use the old Masonic expression. That's why he worked with Kelly, whom JM> he found rather distastful, in the first place - Dee couldn't channel a JM> spirit to save his life! All he did was astrology, and any good JM> mathematician can handle that. JM> Kelly, on the other hand... Dee's diaries mention him doing some JM> "ill-advised" magic and alchemy on his own, but I wouldn't hold JM> Kelly up as a glowing example of a religious magician! Actually, I'm fairly sure Dee was more active than that. A friend of mine, when he was in England at whatever library/museum contains Dee's written work, copied (by hand) instructions Dee created for making a magical trumpet for calling certain kinds of spirits. This he laters gave to Kelly (the formula/spell) as a wedding gift. I believe their are other unpublished examples in his diaries and surviving papers. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 10 Oct 94 01:27:00 Subject: CHAOS UpdReq I'm not going to go through and do a point by point debate with you on this because I think, like Josh, you have an insurmountable chip on your shoulder about magical orders so it wouldn't be worth the work. I will comment on a few points though. JM> If they're of no use without deeper understanding, JM> and they don't understand them, what does it matter? I didn't say they were of "no use." They aren't of use in what we use them for. There is a difference. Like it or not, we are a structured order with certain goals and accepted means of running the order. We follow the 350+ year old Fraternal system when it comes to group dynamics. The system does work. JM> GG> on the learning of these "secrets" and their development. You don't JM> GG> expect every think-tank or lab to give their techniques JM> GG> to the world when they're using them for resarch. JM> JM> But you're not using them for research, you're using them as a JM> reward for the faithful. No, we aren't. We're using them to particlar ends. Specifically, the goals of the order. If you don't like the goals, don't join the order. Simple enough. JM> A commercial research organisation has a different agenda - JM> making a commercial profit. Is that your goal? No, our goals are the Great Work. We feel we can create a better environment in our order for this than releasing every bit of information with no rhyme or reason to anyone who wants it. JM> Hey, go ahead and have a "grade system" in an organisation and JM> dispense all the degrees you want. But if you hold "occult secrets" JM> back, _especially_ from those you've admitted to the group, you're JM> instantly suspect of having reason #2 as the real, hidden agenda. Why do you think we're holding things back from our members? Full membership in the order (something it only take a certain amount of commitment and actual work to attain) allows one to do what they want within the order in pursuit of the Great Work. Certain members with common interests work together in groups within lodges or between lodges to develop their interests. They share their work on these areas with each other. Why should they turn around and hand what they have done to people who haven't done the work they have to understand it and to develop it? I've never said that members of the order are keeping huge secrets from each other. We don't have a 10, 20, or 30 degree system. In fact, we have three degrees and all and have sound reasons for them. The lower degrees are only occupied by people who either choose not to advance (due to other obligations outside of the order) or people who are working on the required grade work. This grade work is there to make sure that all full members have a certain basic level of skill before they start working on their own projects within the order. I can't see how anyone could consider this mind controll or trolling for followers. Perhaps you don't agree with orders or with orders that require a certain amount of work or skill level from their members but I don't have a problem with them. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 8 Oct 94 13:17:00 Subject: chaos UpdReq Thus said Rose Dawn to Christeos Pir concerning Re: chaos: RD> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. CP> Funny, my experience is pretty much the same as yours, yet I keep CP> hearing scare stories about fundie Thelemites. [shrug] RD> I don't think there are all that many of em...FAR fewer than most RD> groups that get fundies, I'd say! My guess is that the entire idea RD> of Thelema is so completely anathema to the RD> 'fundie' mindset, that those few one does run into stand RD> out even more. I have run into a couple people I'd RD> describe that way, and they've been extremely vocal. I just RD> don't obsess on the matter, since the vast majority of RD> people I've come into personal contact with--face-to-face, RD> via phone, or on the nets...don't fit the description. I do recall a time when there was a rather large -- not to mention noisy -- Crowley-can-do-no-wrong faction on the East Coast and in the Midwest. But in perspective it seems to me that their "fundamentalism" was partly a matter of lack of things to compare him to, partly from a sense of social isolation, and partly a reaction to the syrupy goo of 60s and 70s Newageism. Expanding communication has reduced the impact of the first two of these; things are definitely more laid back now than then. The third, I don't think we'll ever get rid of; it's a normal phase of the self- definition process to react against the "we're all one" mentality. ... Is this real, or some strange and twisted dream? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Rainlake 11 Oct 94 09:28:18 Subject: Re: REPLY, PART ONE UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. and Aum Natarajah Aum! Sheesh--I just realized--this must be fallout from that Rite of Mars I did this morning--whew! ;> But Aum Natarajah Aum anyway! :> > Of course. Hungry bandwidth-dybbuks should be taught their > places. I think it was those all-devouring _Atrins_...pesky critters! ;> > -> in some sky-blue candles? ;> > > Hadn't thought of that. Good idea. I have a real affinity for Jovian energies when it comes to both health and wealth. Much more so than Venus or Sol. How bout some sky-blue candles, cedar or other appropriate incense, and an appropriate mantra in an appropriate gentle asana with 'cooling' pranayam to go with? > I wish. Steroids at any dosage are out...I'm a recovering alcoholic, and > we often don't react to them the same as you civilians. Gee...we *do* have a lot in common! LOL. Steroids didn't make me want to drink, or stone me out, although I *destested* every second of every course of steroid treatment I've ever had, and it took me a very long time to get rid of some of the side effects from em. My neurologist told me if they hadn't worked before, they weren't ever gonna, so I'm not going to take them anymore. Prednisone is an adrenal suppressant...and there are yoga asanas and pranayama techniques that can be used to act in the exact same way. I recently began to slip into a period of relapse vis my medical condition, and kicked it right in the ass, mostly using various yoga techniques. Since there's no cure, and the doc his own bad self admits that the best he can do for me is symptom management, I decided to take over my own treatment. So far, it's working. ;> I use the periods of relapse to catch up on my studies and meditations--and interestingly, because of the CNS implications, it's actually easier for me to achieve altered states of consciousness when in periods of relapse than when in remission. So I don't consider *any* of my time wasted, and the emotional/psychological improvements manifest to greater or lesser degree in the physical as well, for me. Sheesh--maybe it's that elusive thang called 'Balance'! ;> > When I'm well enough to dig thru books/journals, I'll try. No rush--I just thought it sounded very interesting! > -> reaction--demyalination as an effect of immune system overdrive, so t > > Interesting. I'll run that by my rheumatologist...sounds like something > she was investigating. It's one of *many* theories, but if it's helpful to yer doc or to you, I'm glad. > My illness involves bad and "touchy" muscle inflammation and extremely > easy exhaustion, and nearly all the asanas are outside the line where I > get worse for several days. Can't do tai chi anymore, either. IT SUX > ROX. I do some extremely gentle exercises the rheumatologist designs for > me, and that 's subject to frequent review as to whether I continue them. Me too, hon. I've had periods of serious relapse when crawling from the couch to the bathroom exhausted me so thoroughly I wasn't sure I could make it back. I get full-body muscle spasms and, unlike plain ol' M.S., they usually involve moderate-to-severe pain as well as stiffness and spasticity. The last fairly serious relapse I experienced came on the heels of radiant good health, with a daily two-hour regime of aerobic exercise, free weight training, and advanced Hatha Yoga. I became MUCH more intimately acquainted with Apophis than any sane person would want to be--moreso than I would have thought possible. I completely abandoned my routine of yoga and C.M. ritual, and got into the habit of doing nothing, which lasted longer than it should have. Since then, I've had a couple periods of relapse, one of which was nearly as serious, and rather than abandon all, I've made it a point to cut back, but *not* completely abandon. Pranayama is eminently do-able in these states, and not painful or exhausting, so I have several prana techniques that I use every day *no matter what*. Savasana with specific meditative and/or relaxation techniques would be good, I'd think. Some of the asanas and mudras can be accomplished with very little physical motion and little or no pain, even when I'm having a very bad time otherwise. Tratakam, dharana, and dhyana would be possible, and even if the concentration is difficult and you can't keep it up for very long at all--even just a few seconds seems to help me with the scattered and unfocused mental states that go along with relapse. And the feeling that I'm doing something that is within my limitations, and doing it regularly, no matter how basic or brief, is a definite psychological boost. I've even done a modified Suryanamaskar in a wheelchair. I just ain't gonna lie down and go to sleep in the snow, know what I mean? ;> Virasanthi, Rainlake! :> 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 5 Oct 94 06:48:44 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Hiya! > Yes, you have been fortunate. I will admit that the tendency to cast > magickal work in fixed, unalterable terms and symbology is less of a > problemamong those who identify themselves as "Ceremonial Magicians" rather > than"Pagans" -- even for those who call themselves both, a lot depends > on which > label they tend to place "first", as it were. Many self-identified Pagans, > even those who proport to incorporate magick into their Paganism, > seem to me > to have an attitude much like any other religionist; the gods decree that > there is One True Way and we puny humans have no right to deviate from > it. Those who see themselves as Magicians first, and Pagans rather more by > default than by strong identification with a particular Pagan tradition, > have a less pedantic attitude about freedom of magickal expression. This is interesting, especially because I've heard self-identified Pagans use an inverse argument to criticize ceremonial magicians--that, rather than spontaneous, free-flowing rituals, ceremonialists get bogged down with all the i-dotting and t-crossing, while Pagans keep the spontaneity. To an *extent* I even think it's true...as I've said, I have been lucky not to run into much dogmatism in the local Thelemic/CM community, but there's much more of an air of 'spur-of-the-moment' around my personal workings that could be classified as 'low magick.' No 'value judgment' inherent in the term! Possibly this has something to do with the magick-vs.-religion thread that's been going on concurrently: while I haven't noticed a whole lot of rigidity specific to ritual I *have* noticed that an incredible number of people seem to assume that everyone in the magical community adheres to the Wiccan Rede, for instance--or that there is "a god" and "a goddess" who always do things the same way. That's one of *my* personal buttons! ;> > these days! Younger members tend to see the OTO as a magickal organization, > as distinct from a "religious" one, with the few throwbacks like Bill > Heidrick notwithstanding. So I would say your experience seems totally with > mine and those of my OTO friends, even though I am not a member (I do make > it to the occasional Gnostic Mass and have even participated in a few > seasonal rites - I was a Tiger in the last Jupiter Rite the Berkeley Lodge > held here... great fun, although invoking carnivorous animals always seems > to leave one with sore muscles afterwards ...) Well, the O.T.O. has its own philosophy: Do what thou wilt! And I certainly look upon the Order as a whole with regard and pursuit...otherwise I wouldn't have initiated! ;> In that sense, I see it as 'religious' also. Just without the pedantic rulez'n'regz that seem to characterize most manifestations of the term! > And as far as cross-pollenization goes, did you know that one of the > Curators of the A:.X is also a 3rd degree OTO? Nope...but I'm not surprised! > Oh, yes. As usual the bad rep is mostly crap, perpetrated by the type of > idiots described in my previous post that give us all a bad name. And > perpetuated by the warm-fuzzy-bunny-foo-foo-white-light-holier- than-thous, > presumably to flaunt their own ignorance... Ignorance in-and-of-itself isn't such a terrible thing--IMO, it's when accompanied by an intense desire to hang on to that ignorance, and ignore anything that would counter-indicate it, that the fir flies. I've got two fairly close Wiccan friends, both of whom were very surprised at my interest in the O.T.O., Thelema, Crowley, et al...but who didn't take their 'caution' to the extreme of being scared to call this board, read AC, or continue talking to me, and both of whom have consequently opened their minds a lot more. LOL...I'm starting to think one of the reasons I get so amped behind people who think all ya gotta do to be a Thelemic magician is mutter a few barbarous words, burn some asofoedita, and et voila!--yer an Evil Black Sex Magtician, is that I *wish* it was that easy! ;> Any kind of self-improvement is TONS more difficult than the supplication-faith method. > Well, to a certain extent I think it arose partly out of the old need for > secrecy in the face of oppression that has been perpetuated into ourday and > age as a means of exploitation of the "lower echelons" of an magickal > order. Now you've gone and pushed one of my buttons... Ruh roh! Certainly didn't mean to do *that*.... ;> Hmmm. It seems as though you're saying that oaths of confidentiality are necessarily a means of exploitation. I disagree. I'm thinking about the types of things that actually *are* confidential...from what I've seen/read/experienced so far, I firmly believe that AC was telling the flat truth when he said that all the *real* Mysteries had been published and discussed openly. Any anyone with sufficient intelligence and personal inclination can discover those 'Mysteries' themselves. As for the initiation rituals, I'm glad I didn't know 'what to expect' before going through them myself; it heightened the effects for me tremendously. As to the 'other secret stuff' I admit that the major reason I keep that confidential, is simply because I promised to do so. I don't like people who break their word, and I don't want to become one. I don't feel in any way 'exploited' by such confidentiality though, and I certainly don't feel that I'm exploiting anyone else by not blabbing everything. > The older entrenched members tend to hoard the "secrets" of theorder, whose > very existence requires strict adherence to "The Way It's Supposed To Be > Done ". If members of a magickal organization were expected to create > their own magickal operations and experimentation was considered the key to > magickal development, rather than "passing down the wisdom of theancients", > there would be much need for secrets of the Order, now would there? As far > as I'm concerened, the only occult secrets worth anything are the ones that > cannot be "passed down", because know one knows them until they discover > them themselves. I tend to agree with your last statement. But, while experimentation may be the key to magical development, it helps to have some basis for that experimentation! If nothing else, it saves the individual *so* much time. If one doesn't learn any traditions at all, s/he won't have any idea which ones have been discovered to 'work' withstanding the test of time and culture, and which ones, while they may have been suited to people in 'other places, other times,' need to be updated to become individually relevant. Without Crowley's *huge* body of work, which in turn was based on Levi...Agrippa...all those anonymous dudes from way back when...where would Spare, Carroll, Aquino, and everyone else be? At the very *least* they'd have all had a much more difficult time, and we'd have no basis for comparison. I think that most of the Important Work is done individually. Joining an Order, to me, is a way of asserting that I agree with a certain basic philosophy and 'flavor' of magical working, and of comparing experiences with others who also agree therewith, rather than approaching it as a 'blank slate' that was going to be inscribed by the initiators or something like that. And yup--I do believe that the Big Secrets aren't 'secret' because nobody will confide them, but because they *can't* be confided--they gotta be experienced. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Rainlake 5 Oct 94 07:45:40 Subject: Re: REPLY, PART ONE UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Howdy Rainlake! ;> > Oh, I don't, and never said I did, most esp. not with the money (see my > money spell, posted elsewhere in this echo. I am WELL stocked with > green candles and money-chants!!) Jupiter seems to do double-duty for me. ;> Maybe you should oughta invest in some sky-blue candles? ;> > But one complicator with the health side *for me* is that nearly all > magick boosts the magician's immune system at least somewhat; that may > not be the particular spell's intent (may even be its opposite, in > fact), but *the magickal process itself*, like most > brainwave-altering > disciplines, usually does do so to some degree. (If you're skeptical, > there's some very interesting medical research on the subject.) And I > have an autoimmune disease...my immune system needs suppressing, not > boosting. An interesting quandary! Any suggestions? Hmmm...bottle of Prednisone on the altar? Sorry, I don't mean to be flip; it is something of a quandary. Not that I'm skeptical per se, but I'm *always* on the lookout for interesting medical research...if you could steer me in the direction of books/publications on the matter, I'd be most thankful. :> Have you tried yoga? Various asanas, pranayama exercises, etc., have definitely phisiological effects; no particular suggestions off the top, but adjustments for personal benefit could very well be a major help. I've never noticed this particular problem personally, although my neurologist sez that 'one theory' stipulates a very similar auto-immune reaction--demyalination as an effect of immune system overdrive, so to speak. Since I've never noted any exacerbation of symptoms of lasting duration, I've never tried to 'work around it,' so any suggestions are purely speculative. If you're interested in yogastuff, I could post you some 'speculative ideas' about asanas'n'thangs; let me know. And get some blue candles! ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718